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I recently acquired this large Hongshan jade: 11 cm long; 6 cm large.

I wonder what our two jade "experts" would say about it: grinding? machining? polishing? sand blasting...

I would be happy to learn from you guys!

Cheers

Pipane

Hey Pipane,
Can you post a couple end shots of the piece. It kind of looks like a hand tool to crush grains with????

Jim

Dear Pipane

It's quite a meaningless piece, if it is authentic, what is the main reason that I have to make decision to buy it?

What is the dimension? What is it made for? a butt plug? ear plug? Hongshan had no funeral practice like that!!!

It's possibly a serpentine with mercury and iron stains, pits/cracks are artificailly made.

Pls do not touch it too much, pls beware of mercury poisoning. I think you may have enough :).

Have fun
Anita Mui

Sorry Anita, this is idiotic, nobody has made artificial pits/cracks on this jade. The decomposition comes from natural weathering. Pipane, I believe that most of the Hongshan pieces you have posted so far are entirely authentic.

Diasai

Hey Jim,

Here the picture,
I know this type of tool (pestle) since I have been collecting some from Africa and Oceania, this doesn't look like one.

I have been studying this jade of course, I still don't know for sure what would be the use of this piece. Could it be fixed at the top of a stick? Attached with a rope? (...) Has the central area been carved in purpose (second picture) ?

Any idea?

Pipane,
I can't imagine this being attached to anything and that central area doesn't look carved when I zoom in on it. Only you can test the material but the carved area seems more like it was disolved by something??????

Jim

Dear Diasai

Whatever you say.

Faker can fake anything. This piece is big, it worths to fake, and sell to people who like collecting dirts.

I saw plenty of this kind of forgery trick on the street, with or without pits and cracks, same carving but different material and aging tricks you name it.

So, what kind of burial environment that had created those so-called genuince pits/cracks? And why Pipane has not brought any of his treasure to China auction houses next to his home town and publish his jades in Auction Houses' cataloques? If I were him, I'll do that!!!


Where you live is contrary different from mine, those kind of jades may look authentic in your eyes, but not me.


If you like eating rotten meat, pls ignore what I have said.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Diasia

I was called an idiotic by you, and I have right to defense myself.

Below is your statement about your so-called Hongshan expert posted on Chico fake jade forum.

I am wondering about your Neolithic jades expertise, since you do not know that the major excavation of Hongshan jade at Nuihelieng, the jade hoof have holes on it, and thickness of the piece doesn’t matter.

I saw Hongshan hoof displayed at HK Museum (permanent exhibition of Chinese Jade and Gold) you can come to HK and have a look til the end of 2008. It is as thick as 1.5 to 2 inches, so you think it is a “fake”!

I assume that you still have no idea who Prof.Guo Da-shun is, you may join the Hongshan tour organized by David A, and do not forget to bring along your eBay treasure for Prof, Guo to vet. Pls come to China once in your life time, you may feel the difference.

----------------------------
Author: Diasai
Date: Jan 22, 2008 11:13
Member since: Sep 2, 2005 02:12
IP: x.x.48.214

Dear Winfried,

just a short word on the Zacke Hongshan "Hoof shaped Tube". Since I have seen it for the first time, I suspect that it is not authentic for the following reason:

- the circumference (wall) is much “TOO THICK”. On authentic hongshan "Hoof" artifacts it is much more delicate and thin.

- To my knowledge, NO AUTHENTIC HONGSHAN "Hoof shaped Tube" artifact has drill wholes on the bottom.

- The color of the jade is to my knowledge undocumented in hongshan artifacts.

Authentic Hongshan "Hoof shaped" jade artifacts are among the rarest and highest expressions of Hongshan artisans and I think that an authentic "Hoof" jade can easily be auctioned for at least 100.000 US$. Please consider that in Hongshan times the manufacturing of a nephrite "Hoof" artifact could have taken a lifetime with the tools available.

Please see for reference: The Essence of Chifeng Historical Relics Series.

Diasai
---------------------------------
See pictures below against your above statement.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Hello Anita,

thank you for your presumptuous statement, and interesting to see, you try to convince the audience that you are the one and only hongshan expert by discrediting me. It is useless that you blow-up yourself so much. If I look up all the nonsense you have spread in the past on hongshan jade it can fill a whole book. Most of the jade tubes from controlled excavations do show a very delicate and thin wall with cracks and chips, most of them have no holes drilled. Your problem is that you are concerend with hongshan jades only since 2 years, before you have never heard of hongshan. Maybe that is why Guo and Niuheliang (not Nuihelieng) is the only excavation you're up-to-date. Further:
- my collection did not consist of Ebay-Jade this is only another of your bold statments.
- Maybe I have been to Beijing and Inner Mongolia for several times, you do not know this.
- I am concerned with neolithic jade since about 20 years, I presume long before you had ever heard of it.

Your appraisal on Hongshan Jade is freestyle and fantasy talk. Do you have any proof for your guess that the stains and cracks are artificailly made on the above artifact, can you really bet that the artifact is serpentine. The only clear message I can extract between the lines of your appraisal, is the jealousy for the hongshan jade collection of jades from chinese private collectors as Xu Qiang, Pipane and others. This has transpired already in the thread about the Book on Qijia jade. Your comparison below, with the shiva stones, is at least to say ridiculous and did not contribute in any way to a serious discussion. You should stop to abuse other members posts in such a deplorable manner and with such farfetched comparison. I think you are not in the position ridiculize the artifacts of Pipane, as much as you have not given a single valid argument for your point of view. I will stop conversation with you from now on.

Diasai

Dear Diasai

Pls notice that the way you treat people who have different opinion with your expertise is uncivilized. Just like you play chess with me then you realized that you are going to lose, you just collapse the whole board..that the way it is..as always. Pls do not be like Pinocchio the owner of T&T jade jade collection, that is the worst sample of all human being.

---------------------------------
You said:-

If I look up all the nonsense you have spread in the past on hongshan jade it can fill a whole book.

*That compliment should be for you yourself. If I have time to dig up many of your unprofessional opinions from Chico..that’s a lot to laugh at.*

--------------------------
You said:-

Most of the jade tubes from controlled excavations do show a very delicate and thin wall with cracks and chips, most of them have no holes drilled. Maybe that is why Guo and Niuheliang (not Nuihelieng) is the only excavation you're up-to-date. Further:

*Let me remind you of your post “NO AUTHENTIC HONGSHAN “HOFF SHAPED TUBE” ARTIFACT HAS DRILL HOLES ON THE BOTTOM.” Where have you been from 1983 ??????? *

And believe me “thickness doesn’t matter!”

------------------------------

Niuheliang is a Neolithic archaeological site in Liaoning, China, named after the Miangniu river. DISCOVERED IN 1983, Niuheliang is an exemplary site of the Hongshan culture.

Niuheliang or Niuhelieng is potato-potato and tomato-tomato

----------------------

You said that I am so jealous of Chinese private collectors as Xu Qiang, Pipane and others. That is true. I am jealous why China Cultural Relics Bureau (CCRB) turns the blind eyes to these collectors / dealers / robbers. I am jealous why the Laws of The People Republic of China do not execute these kind of people who have no right to collect Cultural Relics. I am jealous why these kind of people support tombs looters. I am jealous why these kind of people can sell, show fakes, and cheat others to feed their own mouths…I am so jealous that they only care filling their own rice bowls. No authorized auction houses in China dare to publish those fakes in their auction catalogues but those fake collectors published their own books to show fakes to the public without any banning from China Cultural Relics Bureau before the books were on the market? Because they need no prove from CCRB, anyone can publish any books that not hurt the government constitution…do they have any shame?

Dear Diasai, I cannot live like that . You may rest in peace.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Anita, you don't know what you are talking about.

Diasai

The hoof shape tube no.1 is fake because there is too much dark inclusion. It would take a million years to become this dark if the hoof was pure white in the first place. Also as Anita pointed out it is too thick. This piece was carved out from a piece of nephrite that was very dark or with a lot of dark inclusion in the first place.

I have this other very interesting Hongshan carved Stone.

An 'olobo', carved from the same stone than the one p.27 in the reference book/ 'great find in Chinese Archeology, Archeology in the North of China' HONGSHAN CULTURE, Inner Mongolia University publishing company.

Certainly a representation of a male sex. Evidence of great age is (again) unquestionable (sorry Anita).

I am showing you this because the upper part shows the same kind of rough carving I found on the first large jade I posted here. I can't help thinking of a 'rougly' carved human face.

As for the first jade, I see two possibilities: 1) this was the original surface aspect of the jade before carving 2) it has been carved in purpose.

At last to respond to Anita:
1)if fakers could fake anything there won't be no antique market! Only you can't make the difference.
2)I am confident many people collect what you call dirt with great interest, would that be bad?
3)Now you see things in the streets? wouhahu! it was not enough to know people who knows?
4)Your knowledge of China economy development (antique market especially) and mainland auction market is appalling...

Have fun anyway,

Special thank to Diasai for her support.

Pipane

Dear Pipane

Yes, you are so expert, but only people who acquire cheap fake things from eBay and then have a day dream plus self-authenticattion to assume that they are absolute treasure. Give him a discount la, he really wants to buy your jasper Chulong and many of your sand blasted stones, but could not afford your over price.

"Jade is a beautiful stone!" especially, the artefacts that are not being used as tools and weapons. Are those male reproductive organs beautiful and suitable for ritual ceremonies?

I choose to collect antiques, not old coconut shell or used napkins, they have age and I must collect them all.

Pls scan the book for me if you have as claimed. If the book was published by Chinese private collectors, not from Authorized auction houses and/or China Cultural Relic Bureau, pls do not waste your valuable time.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Pipane

I think your brown stone looks alike Shiva Linga of India.

It is a fantasy fake copied from the Sankara Stones of Indiana Jones artifacts in The Temple of Doom.

"The Sankara Stones are based on the sivalinga (or shiva linga), the symbol of the Hindu god Shiva. Originally the cylindrical shape represented the formlessness of creation, then gradually became associated with Shiva. In temples to Shiva, the sivalinga, often interpreted as the divine phallus of Shiva, is adored instead of him. All Shiva temples have sivalinga as the main diety."

"Lingams are only found at the Narmada River high in the mountains of Mandhata, one of the seven sacred holy places of pilgrimage in India. Each Lingam contains sacred markings symbolic of the marks on Lord Shiva's forehead. The stones are "Crypto Crystalline Quartz"."

Have fun
Anita Mui

This item does not look like Jade. Scratch test will prove this !!
Ernest

You need a scratch test to identify hard stone?

For Anita, picture from reference book (Inner Mongolia archeology institute...

If no scratch test..then go for the specific gravity test. In case that this black item is the original colour, it could have a S.G. of 3.3 = Chloromelanite.
Ernest

It has been a long time I haven't get back to mineralogy, but it is clearly made of basalt, no?

I started to collect mineral at age of 8 and grew up on volcanic island... ;)...

pipane...

I had no idea what Chloromelanite was so I checked the link:
http://www.topofthailandgems.com/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=361

It can't be this (HS Culture area is North China Inner Mongiolia NLRD)

but here I found another link
http://www.theaaca.com/lithnics/Jade.html
this type can be found...very interesting link...

I'll post pictures to illustrate...

This hongshan style jade is a bad replica because the back ground color it too dark and ugly. In ancient times people will pick a beautiful piece of jade and carve it up into a beautiful object than very carefully polished and rounded and even when it was broken the sharp edges were rounded. Than when the owner dies, it is taken to the next world and over the thousand of years the minerals in the ground will alter the color of the jade. This can be a light brown or a dark tinge or a opaque calcified tone found on the periphery of the object. However the majority of the beautiful stone is till preserved, inside as well as outside. Your object appears to be carved from the skin of a large jade boulder than it is treated with acid and than boiled with a brown dye. Thus the terrible color and quality of the stone.

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