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Opinions please on these two inlaid bronze belt/sash hooks and small jade plaque.

Dear Robert

The bronze belt hooks were copied from Warring Sates to Han style. Pls check the inlaid stones, they may be plastic and/or dyed Howlite.

The jade bi disc was copied from museum of King of Nan Yue of the western Han Dynasty. It's a serpentine.

They are nice but newly made.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Those items look very interesting. Pls. get better close-ups if possible.
Ernest

Ernest and Anita, Thanks. And, Anita, you are correct in that we must all be skeptical and consider our objects "guilty until proven innocent!".

Ernest, I will get closeups soon. I am almost certain that the belt hooks are good. The patination and mineralization looks correct - not powdery and overcooked like one would see in a repro. The "Jade" (or some kind of hardstone)passed the scratch test. It is quite thin, translucent, and the surface finely and simply incised, not misinterpreted and overworked like modern reproductions. The back side shows linear marks, presumably from the cutting process. There are randomly scattered, quite small calcified areas (NOT powdery), and again not overdone like in repros. I am hopeful that it too could be "right". BTW, the estate that these items came out of was OLD and had several other interesting items too which I will slowly try to post, including a large (almost 70 cm) translucent white marble reclining Kuanyin figure and a soapstone Lohan figure with great staining and patina. In addition there was a wood Bodisattva which I already posted, and several Chinese ceramics from Song to late Qing.

Dear Robert

Jade artefact is made for "one person", it is a good omen for "one person", made for the cosmos of "one person".

Things that were made for the kings will not have a similar 2nd piece for others. The one who dare to have what kings have, he/she would be considered as a traitor, and the punishment is death of 9 generations, and/or cutting his/her flesh 1000 pieces til death...this is the truth recorded in Chinese history.

So, pls do not buy any jades that look like jades that are shown in the books, museums, private collections, excavated records...etc, they are absolutely replicas or "fakes".

Have fun
Anita Mui

Anita,

Thanks for the analogous piece! However, I have to strongly disagree with your hypothesis. I believe that great designs would have been used over and over again in the period in which they were conceived. Some designs would have been restricted to use of the nobility, and thus rarer, but still not unique. This reuse of designs is seen in most prehistoric, tribal and nomadic art. In fact, it is the oddball, one-of-a-kind pieces that we should be most skeptical about. If we reject a piece, it should be based on misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the design or on technical grounds. Besides, the estate from which my piece came was very old, with the items in storage for a long time. When was the Nan Yue jade first published?

Hi Anita,

To follow up on my earlier message, I think that authentication of or, conversely, rejection of a piece, which otherwise appears to be “art historically” correct must be based on scientific evidence, not speculation. I will assume that my jade is hand made since there is no evidence of circular marks indicative of the use of high speed, rotary, diamond or corundum-tipped saws and bits. Short of direct side-by-side comparison of the museum jade with my jade, comparing specific gravity, hardness, color, refractive index, inclusion pattern and even more sophisticated analysis such as X-ray diffraction, it will be difficult if not impossible to say anything conclusive. However, a close match in physical characteristics might suggest that the two pieces were quarried from the same deposit. This, in turn, would suggest that the two pieces are contemporaneous. Unfortunately, such an analysis will not be possible. We will be left with comparing two poor photographic images, not even sure that the color reproduction in the images is accurate.

Best,

Robert

Anita is correct the jade bi is a replica. Try compare the calcification marks on the real piece and the replica. One is deep and opaque and random and differs in color intensity around the piece. The other is frosty, superficial, same color intensity and not random. Try rubbing some skin cream on it. If some frosting disappear it is a replica created by acid etching technique. I real piece it will still be there. You need to look at jade markets in China to know the different techniques of ancient jade replication.

Dear Robert,

I can't see well enough from the pics...Is there any green color (malachite) corosion on the belt hook bronze? If so, scrach the green stuff and see what you find underneath. If it is a red (ox blood color)substance, the chances are your pieces are real. If you find dark color substance (Bronze)under the green stuff, you pieces are fake.

Best regards,
Pierre.

Robert,
Jade Bi, as much as I can see from the small photograph it is very interesting. If it is a fake, it is a perfect one. Even the material seems to be authentic.

Anita,
your statement below in quotation mark is generic and nonsense. You should take distance of beeing to superficial and rash with your appraisal.

"Jade artefact is made for "one person", it is a good omen for "one person", made for the cosmos of "one person".

Things that were made for the kings will not have a similar 2nd piece for others. The one who dare to have what kings have, he/she would be considered as a traitor, and the punishment is death of 9 generations, and/or cutting his/her flesh 1000 pieces til death...this is the truth recorded in Chinese history."

Dear Robert

The tomb of the Nanyue King was excavated in 1983. After that the jades of king are copied and re-pro til this day.

In Han time the concept of their living was following the "Yi Zhuan, Contemporary on the I Ching” and the "Zhou Yi, Changes of Zhou". The king /emperor was considered as a polar star, the aristocrats were other stars, they are parts of heaven, but commoners are part of the earth. So, the things that aristocrats used would made for “one aristocrat, and related to his rank, his family, and his clan."

***No jades made for the Mandate of Heaven would be mass-produced for anybody to acquire.***

For example of the art made only for the kings:-

The artisans who carved and created work of art for Taj Mahal, their thumbs would be chopped off soon after their work were completed so that they would not create the same skills of art to others!!!

That bi disc were not made for adornment, it is a funerary object that bi disc would be carved followed by his heavenly rank, clan, stars position (Chinese cosmology)at the date/time of birth and death as well as Confucius and Taoism were applied in everyday life. Many things that we do not understand that jade bi have represented.

If your jade have some part look like what king of Nan Yue have, I will not say anything about your jade, but the whole piece look exactly the same but poor workmanship, less details with dyed and stained serpentine. No tool marks left , it means that the stone is so easy to be craved. Pls buy 15 Books of excavated jade unearth from China, you will see the genuine tool marks, some are worst than crude fake jades you see on eBay. No tool marks left doesn't mean that it is authentic, just like junks that Pinocchio and friends have, no tool marks left but whitening and raise of lumps of silly crystal growth..worth a ton, not a dime.

Why I have to say that the thing I saw on Yamate Tourist Jade Hawkers Market in HK are genuine. They have hundreds of baskets full of this kind of stone carving. If you like it just buy it la, but pls do not hope it would worth a fortune.

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Dear Diasai

Dynasties Jades (down from Western Zhou) concept are contrary different from Neolithic to Shang. Since Confucius and Taoism had come of age. You must find the book the " Rites of Zhou or Zhou Li / Zhou Guan " and “The Mandate of Heaven” read them if you want to.

The Mandate of Heaven: Hidden History in the I Ching by S. J. Marshall is an attempt to relate and date the initial historical Mandate of Heaven for the overthrow of the Shang Dynasty and establishment of the Zhou, to the Changes of Zhou, the I_Ching. Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-12299-3

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita,

The design inspiration for this type of disc is not even Chinese, but Scythian “animal” style, an artistic style that was widespread in Central Asia from about 600 BC up to perhaps 600 AD. The Scythian culture is related to other tribal-nomadic cultures living in the Central Asian Steppes. There was a good deal of trade between them and the Han, which is presumably how the style took hold in China. I can not be sure (nor can anyone), but I feel that plaques such as this were primarily decorative (perhaps the jewelry, pendants, or less likely, rank badges, of the day), not highly significant ritual objects. I think the age of true ritual jades imbued with great significance pretty much ended with the end of the Neolithic period.

About tool marks, these are present but cannot be seen in the small photograph.

Robert

Hi, Robert:

Thank you for posting your beautiful jade disc here for us to discuss. I found all the discussions being presented here highly educating and entertaining because each party presents his/her opinions in a very intelligent manner and many times with evidence and supports.

From your arguments with Anita, I found that you had spent a lot of time in studying jades and your opinions were based on such studies and not simply personal opinions. I agree totally with you that if we would be able to compare the material of your jade disc with that of the real piece with scientific analyses, may be we can confirm they came from the same source of materials. More than likely, such material would be unique and was long extinct. Many jade scholar/scientists such as Margaret Sax had performed similar studies.

I did not totally agree with Anita's statement:

"Jade artefact is made for "one person", it is a good omen for "one person", made for the cosmos of "one person"."

It did sound quite bizarre to me at first.

It is indeed true that one will find similar designs in neolithic jades such as Hongshan jade bird, pig dragon. They were all very similar.

However, after I have done some researches regarding this jade disc:

"Dragon-Phoenix Wen Double-ring jade disc" excavated from the tomb of the King of Nan Yue at Western Han, I am afraid I have to agree with what Anita said regarding this piece in this case.

If you refer to this link:

http://big5.ce.cn/kjwh/scpm/scxx/200703/17/t20070317_10727911.shtml

The translation of the Chinese description for this jade disc is:

"This jade disc was originally found on top of the right-eye position of its head-mask, carved with white-celadon (qing) jade, became white yellowish due to soil stain, with a diameter of 10.6 cm, a thickness of 0.5 cm, there is an inner ring inside the outside ring, therefore it was being called "double-ringed".

In the center of the inner ring, there was a moving dragon, its two claws and talon spreading to the outer ring. On the top of its spreading front claw stood a phoenix, looking backward at the dragon, with the two seem to be "one". The crown, tail talon and back claws were all extended to the outer ring, crown and tail talon becoming folding cloud wen, filling up the empty space of the outer ring, in order not to disrupt the harmony with the folding cloud wen, its back claws did not exhibit the sharp claws, therefore resulting in complete harmony."

If you are going to the link of the "Museum of the Western Han Dynasty Mausoleum of the Nanyue King" you would find that they are actually selling reproduction of this same jade disc themselves (probably a smaller size):

http://www.gznywmuseum.com/index_6.htm

In this 2003 Chinese newspaper article the author was complaining many of the Nan Yue artifacts were being reproduced without being approved by the Chinese government. This included the jade disc mentioned here. Many of the reproductions were first class reproductions.

I have posted a better picture of the jade disc here from the link below:

http://www.gzwh.gov.cn/whw/dw/xhnywbwg/wwjp/pic/index.jpg

I believe this picture may better show off the exquisite carving of this disc. I do not know if the color of the disc in the picture is closer to the original or not.

Based on my experience in testing and studying jade material, I do not believe the jade material used to make the original Nan Yue disc is identical to that used to make your jade disc. I almost have to agree with Anita that the jade material of your jade disc posted here is probably serpentine, may be bowenite and that is why it can pass the scratch test. If you will test for its S.G. you would know for sure. That alone should not eliminate the possibility of your disc from being archaic. It is because many archaic Chinese jade carvings were indeed made of serpentine that could not be scratched. However, it this case I believe the original color of your jade disc was indeed brownish-yellow while the original color of the Nan Yue disc was actually greenish-white and only became yellow due to soil stain while in burial.

Further more, I agree with you that your piece was probably not made with modern tools and most likely made with manual tools, may be even 20 years ago. However, based on the low-resolution picture of your jade disc being posted here and compare with the better picture of the original Nan Yue disc, I have to agree with Anita that your piece can only be a reproduction piece. The reason I am saying that is while your piece almost looks exactly (in form and style) of the original piece, unfortunately it simply lacks the "spirit" of the original piece. I hope I do not offend you by saying so. I can be wrong because of the low resolution of your picture.

Lastly, many times I got into heated discussions with Anita because I believe a lot of times she simply made her decisions regarding the authenticity of a jade piece too fast and without enough studies and I did not agree with her one hundred per cent. In this case, I have to reluctantly agree that she may be right because I do not believe such an valuable piece of jade disc found inside the tomb of the Nam Yue King on the top of the deceased's face would be found used as the design on another piece. This simply would not happen at the same time the king was buried. They would really kill every single family member nine-time removed of the offender. In the same token, from an artistic viewpoint, if you see two copies of the same painting by Van Gogh, you have to wonder one has to be a copy.

Therefore, in my humble opinion, there is a very good possibility that your jade disc is a "copy", albeit a good copy, of the original jade disc. I hope my opinion would not offend you and I do enjoy this intelligent discussion.

Why not let a jade professional appraise your disc?

If it is real, it will be worth the fee.

Bill

Bill,

Excellent points. I can see objectively that the King Nan Yue disc is artistically superior and that mine would have had to come after that one. Of course, the big question is how long after?

For the record, my disc is smaller: 9.3 mm diameter by 2 mm thick. Looking at it closely it has good detail which I could not show in the photo. For example I can clearly see the dragon's eye and other details similar to the Nan Yue piece. But also, there are other details that differ from the Nan Yue disc. This I think may be a good sign because a forger might try to get all details correct whereas an ancient carver making a similar piece would get the important details right but some degree of improvisation might be expected as the meaning of some less important small motifs blurred over time.

Structurally, my disc has, on close inspection, hand tooling marks and a few chips, and one break in the lattice, which does not affect the integrity of the piece.

Robert

Dear Diasai

Have you ever seen Chinese historical Drama?

When the Emperor was informed that there is somebody going to form revolution against the Emperor's throne. The way to know who the traitor is, is to search his house. If they find 5 claws dragon robe, five claws dragon jade seal, and five claws dragons jade plaque which are made only for the Emperor and/or just like what Emperor has, found in his house. He was considered as a traitor who is planning to take over the throne, then death of 9 generation will be granted...as simple as that.

Watch some dynasties drama will you?

Have fun
Anita Mui

Diasai,

Thank you for the encouraging words! However, Anita should be free to express her ideas; by being willing to consider conflicting opinions we will hopefully arrive at the truth.

I am more confident about the jade disc today, because of the quality of other items that I found with it in the estate. Please have a look at my later post, above, with the title SE Asian Jar. I have since found out that the jar is in fact Han, "proto-porcelain", late 1st century BC to early 1st century AD. Also, I'm pretty sure that the belt hooks from the same estate are Warring States to Han period too.

Best,

Robert

I tried to take a closeup with the light coming from the side to try to show the surface detail as much as possible. As a result the disc looks opaque. In reality it is very translucent.

Dear Robert

Talking it authentic is much more difficult for this piece.

The real one was put near the right eye of king while the king body was wearing jade shou (jade burial suit). All the ritual bronzes and jade artefacts were made and put in the place as stated in the ritual text for the journey of the death, the bless to the family, clan, and cosmos of time of birth/dead. Pls notice that all the burial jade artefacts excavated from the tombs / graves in China of the same historical period, the jade artefacts are not the 100% same dimension, style, workmanship..ect that is why the Chinese archeologies will know whose tombs they belonged to.
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Fake jade artefacts can be divided into 4 catagories:-

Grade A, intends to fool experts.

Grade B, intends to fool unaware collectors.

Grade C, intends to fool new collectors.

Grade D, intends to fool tourists.

I think your bi disc falls into grade "D".


Sad but true.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Hi, Robert:

Thank you for posting a close up picture of your jade disc. I am almost 90% certain it was made of serpentine. However, like I said, the material would not prevent it from being archaic. Rather, it is the quality of its carving. Please allow me to post the enlarged pictures of the two jade discs here for comparison - the original Nan Yue disc and yours. You can immediately see the curvatures of the Nan Yue disc are so much more fluid than those found on yours.

Again, I can be wrong.

Bill

The ring around the dragon is not uniform, and therefore this piece seems to have been worked with modern tools.
Ernest

hi friend,

with the close-up photo,
there is no life in your jade piece.
Most of contemporary works looked lifeless ,while the real one shines lively.

finding the alive one.
just what i feel...

regards,
senztone

Dear Robert,

I need to revise my first impression of the jade. The enlargment Bill posted shows clearly that your jade is a copy, sorry I didn't see this from the first low-res photograph. I need to apologize, especially with You and Anita, for my previously wrong appraisal.

Diasai

Dear Robert

See serpentine selling as jade, just like what you have, but better workmanship.

Have fun
Anita Mui

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