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Recently, the price of white rice has gone up 40% or higher in some parts of the world. I heard in some Asian countries including China, rice were no longer allowed to be exported. In some grocery stories in the U.S., including Sam's Club and Costco, the number of bags of rice each customer can buy is being restricted to 1 - 4 20-pound bags. In many stores where rice were cheap, they were all sold out because the local Chinese restaurants bought all of them and stocked up. Strangely, in my city, rice was still being served free of charge with other Chinese dishes. There were just not enough rice being produced to feed all the world population.

In the local gas stations, gas had gone up to $3.50 or more a gallon and diesel up to $ 4.17 a gallon. It is because there are no more new oil to be found anywhere in the world and we used them up fast.

You may wonder what all these have to do with jade? Well, just like any other natural resources, I believe it would be more and more difficult and costly to mine nephrite jade, therefore the price of nephrite would go higher and higher.

It seems not too long ago when I first posted some of the very large Hongshan style nephrite carvings in this forum and wonder when, where and why they were being produced. I said at the time while I did not believe they could be genuine Hongshan (due to the quality of their carvings), yet I was not convinced they could be produced modern (within the last twenty years). I was being ridiculed and was accused of trying to promote "modern fakes".

Some forum members tried to show me that nephrite is a dime a dozen and can be found in large quantity cheaply in China. A few also believed some of these carvings were being made of BC (British Columbia, Canada) which they believed were cheap serpentine jades. I found all these opinions extremely interesting and without proof.

I have been buying and obtaining numerous nephrite rocks, blocks, slabs, pebbles in the last two years for my study. I have also bought other materials such as lapis lazurite, turquoise, agate, jasper, etc. for my study. I have tested numerous rocks, slabs, blocks and jade carvings and studied them closely. I understand how difficult and sometimes expensive or impossible to obtain large specimens of all these materials. I also understand how difficult in obtaining a truly archaic jade carving.

Recently, I saw a piece of 2 lb (about 1 kg) beautiful apple green BC jade block (wet by water) and I loved its color. However, I was soon outbid and the piece was realized for more than $100. Therefore real BC jade is nephrite and not cheap. I just saw another 6.2 lb large green nephrite block (rock) (ebay item # 260233330522)with a minimum bid of $5 but before I even got a chance to bid on it, it was up to US $107.50 with almost three days remaining. I was genuinely surprised by such strong demand. Sadly, the seller did not know the origin of this old jade rock. I was very lucky in purchasing 2 big nephrite rocks earlier that weigh a total of 12.3 lb (one about 3.2 kg and the other about 2.3 kg) for only US$ 48 (including postage). I believed I stole them. These were some old stocks that were originally mined in the Washington State (U.S) a while ago. The dealer obtained them from a friend who would not disclose the location of the mine to him.

It has become more and more difficult to obtain any large nephrite specimen (anything 1 kg or more) or quality nephrite. I have not been able to obtain any true "black nephrite" except a few very small specimens. There was a rumor a Chinese from Taiwan bought up the whole black nephrite mine in Wyoming during the late 60s and early 70s.
There were many black rocks claimed to be Wyoming black nephrite but none of them were real, in my opinion. I do not know what happened to all these black jades because Chinese do not particularly like black jade and I have not seen that many black jade carvings or jeweleries for sale anywhere. I had the luck in obtaining a few very nice "Taiwan Jade" samples recently. They are apple green and transparent, almost look like glass but with a S.G. of 3.0 and higher. My friend, B, told me when he was in Taiwan he saw a lot of them but most Chinese did not like them and they were mostly used in making jeweleries and sold cheaply. The nephrite mine was found in the late 60s and was exhausted in the middle 70s. You cannot mistake their color with all these nephrite jades used in making large Hongshan style jade carvings. Same with BC jade.

From studying most of the jade books including "Chinese Jade Carving" and "Chinese Carved Jades" written by S. Howard Hansford, and on the appendix of the book "Chinese Jade From the Neolithic to the Qing" written by Jessica Rawson, there were not any large sources of nephrite being found or confirmed inside the China border. Most of the nephrite stone used in producing Chinese jade carvings were those being mined and imported from Khotan (Hotan, Hetian), XinJiang (Chinese Turkestan) which was not part of China during many Chinese dynasties. Due to border troubles (invasion of foreign nations), it was both costly and expensive to import Hetian jades to the capital of China. Therefore there had been a shortage of nephrite jades during many Chinese dynasties and other jade like stones such as serpentines (Xiu Yu or Xiu Yan jade) and Dushan jade (feldspar) had to be used for jade carving. Therefore, any nephrite jades being found in using to make Chinese jade carvings are probably one of the following: (1) found in now extinct nephrite mine in ancient times; (2) Originally exported from XingJiang (Hetian jade); (2) being imported from outside China, such as Siberia, Alaska, California, Canada. Very often, due to the difficulty in obtaining nephrite jade inside China, the definition of jade in ancient China was not limited to nephrite but basically any stones that are beautiful and hard (cannot be scratched). It was not until Ming dynasty the supply of nephrite became more available. However, even during the Qing emperor, Qiang Long's era, all imports of nephrite jade from XinJiang was controlled by the imperial government and all sales of such materials were also highly controlled by the government. Of course, when there was profit, there would be smuggling of such nephrite materials illegally but the punishment were also very harsh. Therefore, a pair of Hetian jade bowls made during the QiangLong era would already cost a fortune at that time due to material cost alone. Today, there are simply not too many genuine Qianglong era carvings that would be available for less than 6 figures in U.S. dollars. In the book "Chinese Carved Jades" written by Hansford, the writer described that during the late 20s and early 30s in China, a large spinach green jade boulder imported from Siberia was bought by a "jade buyer" with the last name Liu. This spinach jade is quite translucent and has unique black stains inside its structure. They were being used to make quality "archaic" jade carvings by the same imperial jade carvers who had worked for the Qing emperors and their final products were sold at high prices to foreign tourists who brought them back to their countries. Many of these pieces were today being displayed in oversea museum or sold by auctions houses as "archaic piecs". This type of spinach jade was called "Liu's Jade" according to the author. I happened to see a very small jade sheep made of similar jade on eBay not too long ago and I believed it was sold closed to $400. The carving is average and not that unique. Probably carved much later. It has that unique black stains inside its spinach green jade structure.

Not too long ago, there were almost an abundance of large Hongshan style nephrite jade carving all over eBay listed for $7.99 to $13.99 Most weighed from 500 gram to 2 kg. I could not figure out where they could have obtained such large nephrite rocks, carved them into different Hongshan style figures (some are indeed not excellent carvings), sandblasting (according to some members), adding white patina (or acid?), with some convincing stains and then sold them so cheaply. A few of us who believed the only way they could do so is because of the "no cost theory". That means they did not have to buy the raw nephrite materials and paid for the manufacturing costs. They simply found them somewhere and bought them cheaply. It is not to say that they would be genuine or stolen from tombs. I do not believe this is the case here. I just cannot figure out when they would have such "window of opportunity" in being able to find such large sized nephrite rocks in making all these Hongshan style carvings. I bought a Hongshan style nephrite turtle that weighs just a bit more than 2 kg. It would take almost 4 kg of nephrite to carve this piece. Have you ever seen a nephrite rock that weighs 4 kg? Do you know how much it would cost?

Well recently when I look at all the Hongshan style "jade" carvings that were listed on eBay, I could only shake my head. Almost 95% of them were fakes. When I said fakes, I don't even mean they were not archaic or neolithic. They never were. The problem is now all these large "jade" carvings that were supposedly made of jade, turquoise, coral, amber, lapis were all made of fake materials. There were simply no such large samples of lapis or turquoise existed in nature. The funny part is all these fakes were now listed with much higher minimum bids. Many are started at $49.95 or even $99 minimum bids. I guess the predictions of Mary had come true and I can assure her that I was not the one who is selling these disgusting non-jade items. This proves that when one had to pay to make "fake jade pieces' it would actually cost more and therefore they would have to sell them for more. The truly sad part is many collectors were bidding on these "fakes" that should be very apparent to everybody and some of these dealers were actually making more money on them than selling real nephrite pieces. What an irony?

I also have started doing something I have never done before. I have started reporting some of these very obvious fakes with misleading titles such as "antique" or "jade" to eBay. I do not know whether my actions would do any good because eBay would not tell me their actions but only said they would investigate. However, I believe if enough people would do the same, may be and just may be they would ban all these dealers who are cheating their customers. Of course, the chance of their doing so may be very slim.

So once again, what is the point of my message? I am simply trying to show once again nephrite is scarce and is not cheap. According to the article "The Jade Stone of Heaven" published in the September, 1987 issue of National Geographic, during the 80s it was both difficult and expensive to find nephrite for making jade fakes. I do not know if this shortage of nephrite jades become better in the 90s and the 2000s.

Therefore, why would any Chinese import nephrite jades to China in making large fake Hongshan style nephrite jade carvings and turn around in selling them cheaper than their raw material costs? When did they have such window of opportunity in doing so? The Hongshan fever has only been spreading in the last ten years. May be some "older" members can tell us when all these large Hongshan style nephrite jade carvings started flooding the market and how did they make them so cheaply.

I actually have not even buying any jade carvings lately because they had become both expensive and hard to find. I am now collecting large nephrite rocks and boulders because they are still very under value and very challenging to find. If you do not believe me, try to find one that weighs more than 2 kg that you are sure it is real nephrite.

Good luck.

Bill

Just saw this piece of 24 lb beautiful green Russian jade rough:

300221867228

with one day and 20 hours to go, the current bid is only $41.11 with $24.85 for postage.

Its size is 11x7x4 inches.

If it is sold at this price, it would be a steal for the winner.

I have bought lapis rocks from this dealer before. Very good quality and old stocks.

B

By the colour, if it is Jade, it must be a very low grade...what would you do with that?
Ernest

Hi, Ernest:

You can very well be correct in saying that the jade rough is of low grade based on its color. May be that is why its current bid is only $ 66.22 for such a large piece of nephrite jade rough. However, my point is to show that I cannot figure out when and where the fakers can find such large nephrite specimens to make all these large Hongshan style fakes. Many of the cicadas were at least 12 inches long. to find a piece of nephrite rough that long is very challenging.

Another interesting fact is that how would one decide the quality of nephrite jade? The reason I am saying that even some so called mutton-fat hetian jade only has a S.G. of 2.90 - 2.92 with a hardness of around 6.0

One of the almost white (a hint of green) hetian jade ru-yi my friend got had a hardness very close to 7.0 and a S.G. of 2.96 The beautiful Hongshan bird I got has a S.G. of 3.0 and a hardness of 6.5 However, quality of nephrite alone would not qualify a piece to be authentic or archaic.

I am not sure we would ever agree if any Hongshan jade carvings that were separated from its burial place and without documentations or provenance would be authentic. There do not seem to be any universal standards we can use to determine their authenticity.

If you bother to look at those Hongshan style pieces posted by Pipane in his different threads. He truly believed they were authentic. Diasia seemed to believe some of the pieces posted in his web site were also authentic. Anita did not believe one could find any authentic Hongshan jades authentic.

Most of us jade collectors seem to love to call a lot of lesser quality jade carvings "modern" and tool marks found on many such jade pieces "modern", yet nobody can really define or show what modern tool marks really look like. I have just purchased three "frog" "jade" boxes that appeared to be dark green in their pictures. The dealer said he had it for at least 20 years. When I received them, they were of celadon color which is the most difficult color to find in nephrite jade (other than truly white hetian jade and yellow nephrite jade). Without even testing them, I know immediately that they were made of serpentine. The S.G. test confirmed my decision. Yet its hardness is 5.5 and that means they would pass the scratch test. After I have examined the inside of their covers, I confirm they were indeed old due to the "scratche marks" on the inside of the covers that could only be made with manual tools. Therefore they could only be made before the early of 60s when modern carving tools were started being used in China. I found that most "older" serpentine could not be scratched and therefore they were labeled as "jade" in China while most of the modern serpentine could be scratched.

I have also found that many archaic Chinese jade pieces were not made of nephrite due to the scarcity of such material. The authentic one were also made of Dushan jade (feldspar)or xiu yan jade (serpentine)and other hard materials (that can pass the scratch test).

B

I need to clarify that the purpose of my post is not to promote fakes and I am not selling any of these larger Hongshan style jade carvings that are currently listed anywhere in the internet and have no connection with any of these dealers who are selling them. I do not believe any of them are authentic Hongshan items and yet I do not believe they were made modernly due to their selling costs are lower than the costs of faking them.

Recently, after the disappearance of those larger Hongshan style nephrite jade carvings from eBay, all of a sudden a few quite large nephrite cicadas (about 12 inches or longer and weigh at least 1 kg) had started appeared a few at a time in the web sites of two dealers in China. Interstingly, the designs of some of these cicadas are quite similar, with one cicada apparently better than the other. I have often seen this phenomenon on jade carvings listed for sale on eBay from Chinese dealers' sites. It is always starting with one pretty good jade piece (it may be a copy itself) and then following with quite a few similar items (in form and design) which lack the same detailed carvings.

On some of these jade cicadas, the same oracle-bone words appear on them and one could immediately detect they had to be copies.

The minimum listed prices of these pieces are now much higher, $15 - $24 and the shipping cost is usually more expensive than the cost of the item.

Yet, they simply could not be made modernly because again I do not know where you can find a piece of nephrite that is at least 12 inches or longer and weight at least 3 kg or more (to carve such pieces). Yet they have to be copies. So the question is where were these large Hongshan style nephrite pieces made and what were their purpose of being made? For profit? How?

If such pieces were made today, just materials alone would cost more than the cost of such a piece (including shipping). Therefore it is quite puzzling. There are also vast differnce in some of the nephrite materials found on these recent larger Hongshan style carvings than that found in previous one. On a few of these larger Hongshan style carvings I had purchased previously, manual tu marks were clearly seen on them, therefore they had to be made prior to the 60s when manual tu were replaced by modern carving tools. I may list a few pieces for discussion later.

Bill
Link URL:

This 24 lb jade rough was sold for $ 197.57, with a postage of $ 24.85, makes the total $ 222.42,about almost $10 a lb, or $20 a kg. It shows collectors know the scarcity of large nephrite samples.

The 6.2 lb green nephrite block I mentioned in the previous message was sold for $ 147.50, with the $ 9.75 postage, makes it a total of $ 157.25. That is more than $ 20 a lb or $ 44 a kg. Not cheap at all.

In the trade, when the dealers have a block of Jade which the carvers reject, it is sold as "tourist jade"
Those blocks are marvelous door stoppers.
Ernest

Hi, Ernest:

I agree with what you said. But if even these rejects would cost so much, where would all these carvers find affordable nephrite jade to make larger jade carvings?

B

Bill,
So,you agree with me, then why do you tell people, who read this forum, that those door stoppers are a good deal? This is why we don't trust you.
Ernest

I do not necessarily agree with you with the quality of these rocks I show here, I just do not want to get into a heated agrument with you regarding their quality. What are your definitions of "high quality nephrite rocks"? Do you only go by their color, outside appearance, are their physical properties such as S.G. or hardness importance to you? If you go back to some of these messages where jade carvings were posted, had you not made incorrect judgement regarding the materials of such pieces? Many times, you ask the owner of the pices to test it by scratching it. Do you not know that non-jade materials such as bowenite, agate or even some glasses cannot be scratched?

Therefore, may be you should show us some of the beautiful nephrite rocks you have in order for us to understand exactly what high quality jades are and how you define them.

The fact is if even such low-quality nephrite jade (claimed by you) are selling at $20 or more per kg, how in the world can one make a 1 kg large nephrite jade carving and sell under their material and labor costs.

Are some of these large jade carvings good deals, yes, especially if you like them.

Am I trying to promote them, no, because I am not selling them.

Do I want encourage you to buy them, absolutely not, because you would only give me too much competition.

I already have troubles in getting any of them recently.

My purpose is to show all the narrow-minded people that nephrite jades are not cheap and larger one (in size and weight) are very difficult to obtain. This is from my real experinece in buying nephrite rocks. How many piecs of nephrite rocks or roughs do you own and study?

Bill

P.S. I can care less whether you would trust me or not. I would take your opinions just like any other members in this forum, with a grain of salt, nothing more and nothing less.

Bill,

These all seem to be eBay auctions. What makes you think that this is a good indicator of price in a rural Chinese town? I collect pocket watches. I have never bought a pocket watch on eBay. It's too expensive. I sometimes sell on eBay.

And do you know what the price of labor is in a small town in China? I'll bet you can get a 2 pound "jade" cicada for the price of a bowl of rice - if the carver is hungry.

Can I ask what you are going to do with your rocks? Are you betting on making money?

I suspect these are an investment of the same grade as Beanie Babies were some years ago. In a market like this you should be selling. I sold my silver a couple of months ago when it hit $22. It was lousy investment. I bought it when silver last crashed in the 1980s. I doubled my money in 25 years. Even when you think you are being smart, timing the market is tough.

I think you are buying into a fad. But I don't follow the "jade" market. I suspect the demand comes from all the fake makers.

Good luck,
Stan

Stan:

You seem to be either quite confused or misled like the other forum members here.

First of all there are no nephrite mines in China. Serpentine, yes; nephrite, no. Most of the nephrite used for jade carvings in China are hetian jades that were imported from XinJiang and they were expensive. They also imported nephrite from Russia, Canada or U.S. in making expensive jade copies.

Therefore, if you want to make these large nephrite jade carvings you have either imported them somewhere or they were nephrite material that were mined in ancient nephrite mines that were long extinct.

If they were made modernly and if they were indeed made of nephrite, you cannot buy them cheap anywhere in China. If you go to the Yau Ma Dai jade market in Hong Kong, even the jade pieces similar to those used to be sold by HKJADE on eBay for $2.99 was selling for US $10 a piece. Jade copies were actually selling for higher in China and Hong Kong.
Now if they found them somewhere then of course they could sell them cheap. But won't that make them old then? Why would anybody make these large nephrite carvings and then threw them away? I believe you just put your theory in an unexplainable position.

Further more, the labor cost in China is definitely not cheap. The Chinese RMB is so much stronger than the U.S.dolllar. All these modern and non-jade fakes listed on eBay recently were now starting at $49 or $99 each. What did that tell you? It is definitely not cheap to make even non-jade fakes.

You should never time your market. I sold all my silver, gold and platinum too. You should never buy bullion for investment, only fools would do that. You invest in both bullion and numismatic values. Therefore, you do not buy raw bullion, you buy U.S. silver eagles. If you have bought the 1996 silver eagles when they first came out, you would have made a killing. If you bought the 2006-W uncirculated eagle from the mint, you would make a bigger killing. You must be smart in collecting anything. You must study.

I bought two 1941 Hong Kong five cents years ago (different mint marks) for around $175 a piece. A similar coin (the less rare one) sold for $900+ on eBay. What did that tell you?

Beanie babies is a man-made market, demands created artificially by the company. Nephrite material is a natural resource and cannot be created aritificially. You are mixing oranges with apples.

Three is absolutely no way, I repeat, in this modern market, for anybody to fake a large piece of nephrite jade carving that weighs at least 1 kg and at least 12 inches long and sell them for under US$20. Not here and not in China and not in any parts of the world. Don't let all these people fool you.

B

Mr. Bill thu
I'm indonesian, jade enthusiasts. Iwould like to know more about jade.
I wish you have a spare time for my question

I no longer actively collect jade. When I first started posting here in 2008 I really did not know too much about jade. Then after I did learn a lot more I really got discouraged because to try to really find authentic antique or archaic jade, it is easily than done. There are really too many dishonest jade dealers out there and even you would spend thousands of dollars, there is no guarantee you may acquire the real things. When you really need to sell your jade collection, you would find that they may not be worth as much as you thought. Therefore my advice is to proceed with extreme cautions, spend money in buying the books first before spending money in buying jades. You may want to post your questions for other members also, so all of them can help you. Good luck.

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