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For a while, there seem to be an abundance of larger Hongshan style nephrite cicada for sales on eBay for $7.99 to $ 10.99. All of a sudden,the supply simply dried up.

Recently, I saw a few of them being listed on eBay again.

The interesting things about them are:

(1) They were apparently made of nephrite; (I am 95% sure after testing similar pieces)

(2) They weigh at least 1 kg (usually the actual weights of these large jade pieces are about half of their listed weights);

(3) They were quite large in size: the length of them ranges from 9.4" to 13.2".

(4) Some of them look very similar in their designs, almost like copies of each other or of an older piece. However, there are some apparent differences between the quality of their carving and weathering.

I believe there are no chances whatsoever for these large Hongshan pieces being authentic and archaic Hongshan jade carvings because the large sizes of such nephrite jade carvings actually work against their authenticities in this case:

(1) There are no records of such large nephrite rough or this type of nephrite ever being found in Hongshan or in excavated Hongshan tombs;

(2) Even if such large nephrite roughs were available, the Hongshan people would have a hard time in cutting such large pieces with basic stone or wooden dissection tools. It is possible they might have bronze cutting tools at a later period. But even today to cut such a large piece of nephrite is quite challenging.

(3) The quality of carving found on these larger pieces were simply not up to par with any authentic Hongshan jade pieces found.

If I have posted these pieces just a year or two years ago, many of the forum members would automatically label all of them "modern fakes" (they may still do so). However, after studying jades for over two years non-stopped, I beg to differ.

The reasons are in modern days, one simply would have a lot of troubles in finding such a large piece of nephrite rough to carve these large sized nephrite cicada. To carve a 1 kg cicada, one needs a minimum of 2 kg or more of nephrite rough. Material alone would run at least $40 to $60 dollars. The problem is actually not even the weight of the material. It is very difficult to find a jade rough that has a length of 9.4 inches or longer. Even with such simple designs, it would not be possible to carve such large nephrite pieces after paying for both material and labor costs.

My questions are:

(1) If they are not genuine Hongshan pieces, when and where were these large nephrite pieces being made?

(2) Why were they being made?

I am posting the pictures of two large cicada here for comparison.

The first piece is kind of greenish. It is about 12.4 inches long, its weight was listed as 2,300 gram with a minimum bid of $15.

The second piece is made of green nephrite partially covered with reddish weathering or stain. Its size is 9.4" L x 3.4" W x 1.6" T and it was listed as 2,100 gram. It was sold as Buy It Now for $15.

The designs of both cicada look almost identical, with the first one a lot longer than the second one. I personally like the second one much better.

How about you?

Any opinions would be welcome. I am not here to promote any modern fakes but just raise some interesting questions. So far I have not been able to identify a window of opportunity in modern China that would afford the fakers the opportunity to find such large nephrite rocks in making such large jade copies and then turn around to sell them below costs.

Bill

Bill,
It was not that long ago that you posted derogatory remarks about this forum on Chicochai, and said something to the effect that you wouldn't come back.

Now you return again with more wierd opinions from your two years experience of collecting jade fakes.

Why can you not absorb the fact that:
1. Large lumps of low quality hardstones are available for carving at very low cost.
2. These pieces you have illustrated are obviously fakes.

From what you have stated here and previously, it is apparent:
3. You cannot distinguish old carving from modern
4. You have little if any idea what a genuine archaic jade looks like.

Just because you cannot locate the source of either these poor quality low-priced stones, or the carvers that carve them, does not mean that they must be made from old stones carved before machine tools were available.

These idiotic postings of yours are more suited to the few believers left on Chicochai. Why don't you post them there?

Tony

I have to agree with Mr. Allen. Bill I cannot enjoy this post at all. This is not art and this is not old what you are posting. If you continue to dwell in the realms of ebay you will never find something authentic.

Diasai

Diasai:

You apparently did not read anything I have said about Hongshan scripts or check the references I posted there or otherwise you may have something more concrete to contribute.

It is sad that you agreed that some of the Hongshan pieces posted by Pipane could be genuine. While I respect your expertise in Hongshan pieces I cannot really agree with you on the authenticity of Pipane's Hongshan pieces posted here.

It is also sad that you do not see through Tony's mask and his true intentions.

It is all right you do not enjoy this post. So far I have only seen the picture of one Hongshan piece you sent me in private. May be you should post some of your Hongshan pieces here in this forum and let Tony call it "modern fake", then may be you would change your opinions. I guess that is why Randy no longer posts here.

The fact is that I do not believe all these large Hongshan jade nephrite carvings are genuine and I said so if you bother to read, I am equally not convinced that they could be made modernly with the reasons I have listed. When did you first start seeing these type of large Hongshan nephrite jade carvings? What year? I also disagree with you that all of these pieces are not arts, to me a few of them are quite beautiful and I may post them later for others to see. Many of the authentic Hongshan pieces actually look quite worse. In the same token, many of the archaic Han pieces did not look that appealing and they look like modern fakes.

If you believe those ugly Hongshan style pieces posted by Pipane can be arts, then I am afraid these pieces can equally be arts themselves although I may not have posted the best of them.

May be you should post your criteria in how your decide a jade carving is:

(1) an authentic Hongshan piece;

(2) a piece of art.

with pictures and examples, then I believe I may be able to understand you better.

So far, nobody can explain to me where all those fakers can find such large pieces of nephrite roughs to make these "modern fakes" and then turn around and sell them below costs.

Anything that is not logical deserves an explanation.

So far I do not believe I have seen any forum members who had posted any authentic and archaic jade carvings that can be universally agreed and accepted by the majority of the forum as such.

I believe you have overlooked some of these better larger Hongshan pieces and I sincerely believe a few of them are much older (>100 years old).

I have examined a few of them and can say with 100% certainty that they were not made with modern carving tools.

There are simply not too many members in either forum who can really explain what exactly modern tool marks should look and many of them have no understanding of the type of unique tool marks found on authentic Hongshan pieces. If they cannot even do that, how can they decide whether a jade pieces is archaic or modern?

Bill

Tony:

Please get on with your life and take it easy on yourself and others. Try to be more forgiving and it will do good to your health.

Post your own threads, show your genuine jade pieces, teach the newbies your vast knowledge in jades. You will feel better that way.

Go to Chichochai forum, post some messages there and assert yourselves if you want a good fight. Don't run away from them.

If I remember correctly, you are the one who had posted a picture showing this pile of Xiu Yan jade (Xiu Yu) rocks outside a jade factory in order to show me that there were tons of nephrite roughs available in China for making fakes and that these nephrite were so common they did not even bother to lock them up. Little did you know that these Xiu Yu were not nephrite but serpentine. Further more, there were "older" serpentine material and modern serpentine materials after I have studied numerous samples of both serpentine carvings and rocks. The older serpentine materials are dark green, emerald green or greenish-yellow and all of them couldn't be scratched. Some of them look just like nephrite and can fool most experienced jade collectors. They can pass the scratch test with flying color. The modern serpentine material are celadon (light green) and can be scratched. Quite a few authentic Hongshan jade carvings were made of these older serpentine materials that could be found in the Hongshan area.

I have to agree with you that many of these larger Hongshan nephrite jade carvings are "copies" especially the one with "ancient scripts" carved on them. I have seen almost identical one were now being listed for sales on eBay by several dealers, some at very high prices. But you have missed the fun of this message in your eagerness to put another person down. The main themes of my message are:

(1) Why, when and where were these larger Hongshan style nephrite jade carvings were made? While they were obviously copies, they could not be made modernly because unlike what you said, the material used to make them are not "cheap hard stone". Are you opposing my messages because you do not want to see their prices go up before you can buy all of them and resell them for much higher prices. Have you ever tried to buy a single piece of this cheap "nephrite rough" that would weigh 2 kg (to make a 1 kg carving) and at least 10 inches long? How cheap can you get them for? I would like to buy some from you if you can get them so cheap.

(2) How did some dealers sell them below their manufacturing costs?

(3) Were there any ancient scripts in the Hongshan culture and can any of them be found on any authentic Hongshan jade carvings?

May be if you can answer some of the above questions with evidence or proof then some of us would have more admiration for you.

I sincerely do not believe you know anything about jade material. To call these larger Hongshan style nephrite carvings made of "low quality hard stones" clearly show your ignorance.

You continue to act like you are some types of jade guru yet I do not believe you know too much about archaic jades yourselves including Hongshan jades. If a piece of authentic Hongshan jade is posted here, you would call it a modern fake. If you are such an expert, why do you not post your opinions regarding those Hongshan pieces posted by Pipane. Is that because you are unsure and do not know what to make of them? For that matter, are you sure what "modern tool marks" on jade carvings really are? Can you even define "modern"?I posted three jade carvings not too long ago in one of my messages regarding jade material, I do not see you volunteer in expressing your opinion regarding tool marks found on them. Are you afraid that if you have made a mistake that I would laugh at you? (I probably would have.) I really do not believe you can accurately date any archaic jade and neither can I. So we are therefore equally ignorant and equal. Then why do you continue to act so "superior" and have to put me down?

How did you become so narrow minded and come to a point that you are so sure of yourself and therefore ignore the opinions of other jade collectors and would not allow them to express their opinions? What are your academic trainings and credential in jade that makes your such a jade expert? To me, you are at best a fellow jade collector, nothing more and nothing less. Your opinions in jade can only be taken with a grain of salt.

There are actually not too many people who can authentic any Hongshan jade carvings. Even a jade expert in dynasty jades like Anita would not believe one could ever find a truly authentic Hongshan jade carving. Yet even she had bought some very authentic looking Hongshan jade carvings. May be she is right because even if you have an authentic one how can you ever convince the "doubters"? Diasai is the only fellow jade collector I have known who has been diligently studying Hongshan jades by obtaining all types of materials from different academic sources including museums and painstakingly studied them. To me, he is a scholar and not just a collector. However, he is not so full of himself that he would not admit he could make mistakes and would refuse to listen to other collectors' opinions. Not too long ago, he admitted his error regarding his opinions on a Nan Yue King jade disc and he apolgized openly to Anita. To me that takes courage and is a true sign of a humble jade scholar. Therefore, I respect his opinions in Hongshan jades more than anybody else.

Tony, your comments no longer bother me because I beleive I have gained enough knowledge in jade collecting especially in jade materials to know that very often you are wrong and do not know what you are talking about. I have accumulated a sizable library in jade books including Hongshan jades that I believe now I may know more about certain jade subjects than you. Until you can admit that you are not infallible in jade collecting or even ceramic, then you are doing both your customers and yourself a disservice because such arrogance would surely cloud your judgement regarding any collectibles. Even experts working for large auction houses and famous museums had made costly mistakes and would continue to make them unless they can learn from their mistakes. I know because I have committed similar mistakes in fields that I believe I was eexpert and only found out that I was utterly wrong. My errors truly humble me and therefore I continue to study and value others' opinions.

Thank you.

Bill

There have been quite a few large Hongshan nephrite jade carvings listed on eBay that have some types of scripts carved on them. However, it is extremely difficult or almost impossible to find concrete evidence from official Hongshan jade books published by reliable government sources to show excavated Hongshan jade pieces with any types of scripts.

However, from my researches and from other jade forum member’s interaction with the Hongshan guru, Professor Guo Dashun, I believe there are indeed authentic Hongshan jade carvings with some types of scripts appear on them. I believe the reasons we do not see the publishing of such pieces with scripts are done on purpose in order to protect the identity of such scripts so that such scripts could not be copied by fakers. I notice by reading quite a few Hongshan jade books (including official one) that the pictures of many excavated Hongshan pieces were withheld on purpose and were never published. Even when they were published, most of the time only the front of their pictures were being published. Some times the back of their pictures may be available but it is almost impossible for one to examine any authentic Hongshan pieces from different angles (such as front, top or bottom). I believe once again this was done on purpose so that the faker would not be able to differentiate between an authentic Hongshan piece and a fake piece.

For example, in many smaller authentic Hongshan jade carvings such as jade bird, the two holes were actually not directly connected with each other and very often misaligned and were not lined up even with each other. Furthermore, if one examine the inside of the holes of authentic Hongshan jade carvings, while the outside would look pristine, the inside of the holes would always show some types of stain. Many newly made fake pieces would not have such stain inside their holes. Also, the outer edges of the holes are always smooth while that of modern fakes are very sharp when feeling them with a finger.

The earlier Chinese script ever discovered is supposedly the Oracle Bone script found in Xia dynasty. Since the Hongshan era was supposedly prior to the Xia dynasty, therefore it was almost unthinkable for one to believe any scripts could be found during the Hongshan era. There seem to be no written language used by the Hongshan people and therefore there were no written records about the Hongshan culture or what had become of them. However, I believe there is indeed language in the Hongshan culture, however I believe they may not have any written scripts and if they have such scripts they were so hard to learn that not too many of their own people even learned to write and after a while nobody seems to be able to remember how to write such scripts. This phenomenon had happened with many cultures. I believe it is very possible that the Khitan language and the Gin dynasty language may be derived from the Hongshan language because the Hongshan people and the Khitan people inhibited in the same geographical area. It is possible that even the later Mongolian language may have some connections with the Hongshan language. It is sad that we are unable to do DNA study in comparing the DNA of the Hongshan people with the Mongolian people or that of other minority in China. We would be able to pinpoint what if the descendants of the Hongshan people still survive today..

Interestingly enough, although today there are still people who can speak Mongolian but I do not know of too many who can still write the language. (*I can be wrong of this.) Same thing happens with the Manchurian language (of the Qing dynasty), now almost nobody can speak or write the language although such language was the official language of the Qing dynasty just a little bit more than 100 years ago. (I am sure about this) Also, if one looks at the Vietnamese, there was always a "spoken" language but no written language was ever available until the French created written "pronunciations" for it. Same thing happened with the Japanese and Korean language.

According to the jade book, "Hongshan Culture" written by Liu dong-qing, ISBN 7-81074-290-6, published by the Inner Mongolia University Publishing Company:

On the top picture on page 105, there was a large jade carving with scripts (used for worship or making sacrifice.).

On page 172, there is an essay titled, "Pertaining to earliest scripts in the HOngshan Cultural Era".

It gave four examples of ancient Hongshan jade carvings that found with ancient scripts:

(1) A 12-kg jade carving with three lines - nine scripts that meant sun, moon, mountain, rain, man... (no picture was shown)

(2) A green hoof-shaped jade carving with four scripts carved on the front of the hoof, some scripts could not be recognized (do not know if it means that nobody knows what the scripts meant or the piece is so old that one cannot make out what the scripts are). There is a female sacred animal sitting inside the hoof.(left picture on page 173)

(3) Two identical small jade bi with three scripts carved on the surface of each of them but the scripts could not be recognized. (shown on the bottom right picture of p. 173)

(4) On a jade carving that combines both a dragon and an animal, on the belly of both, there are scripts carved on them. (*shown on the top and middle picture at the right-hand-side of p. 173).

Unfortunately, the author did not specify the sources or origins of these pieces (may be on purpose or he did not know) and the quality of the pictures were not great. Furthermore, due to age of the pieces, I do not believe one can really be able to even see what the real scripts look like.

During my research of scripts found on Hongshan or any earlier neolithic jade carvings in China I could not locate any concrete evidence for their existence. However, there is a web site on which several neolithic jade pieces with ancient scripts were published by a few scientist and jade collectors in Hong Kong. I believe they did find concrete evidence of such ancient scripts. Unfortunately they were not interested in either selling their pieces or in sharing their findings with others. There were no contact information on their web sites.

I believe there are indeed scripts created and used during the Hongshan culture, however I do not believe they could be called scripts, more than likely just pictograms - that means pictures drawn to show the meaning of an object or person; later it might indeed be evolved into scripts, but not necessarily oracle bone scripts, more than likely a different type of scripts that were developed in parallel with the mainland Chinese scripts. Unfortunately the Chun-Yuan culture became the main-stream culture in China, and the Hongshan culture and scripts became extinct as its culture vanished from the earth due to either the extinction of its people and no surviving written record of their histories.

Of course, all my theories regarding Hongshan scripts are just "theories" at this time and it would take a lot of study and gathering of evidence in either confirming or rejecting it.

I am listing the pictures of three large nephrite cicadas here for your enjoyment. I do not believe any one of these can be authentic and archaic Hongshan jade carving and I doubt the authenticity of the scripts found on them. However, I do believe it is fun to study them and the scripts found on them. It is possible that they are not as modern as we thought.

The first cicada is listed as “Hongshan Culture Hemo Jade Cicada with Words Totem”. It is made of greenish nephrite, about 13.2 inches long, the listed weight is about 3,000 gram (that means the real weight is about 1,500 gram). It has some pictograms on its top surface. It was sold for $ 27 plus postage. I like this one the most because of its pictograms.

There are two pictures for the second cicada. It is kind of brownish. Again, made of nephrite. It is about 10.7 inches long, listed weight is 2,700 gram (actual weight probably around 1,350 gram). There are some types of oracle scripts on it. It is apparently fake because I do not believe such oracle scripts could appear on authentic Hongshan pieces.

I would try to post the third cicada in the next message.

Thanks.

Bill

This message should appear after the one that shows pictures of two other large cicadas with scripts. However, very often, messages do not necessarily appear in the order they were being submitted. Therefore, if you happen to read this message first, I suggest you read the longer message first.

I am posting here the picture of the third nephrite cicada with some types of a mixture of oracle scripts with pictograms, appearing on a greenish-reddish surface with with white patina.
This piece is about 1.2 inches long and its listed weight is 3,900 gram. I believe this is a fantasy piece because its scripts are just not very convincing to me.

Enjoy.

Bill

The length of the third cicada should be about 12.2 inches long and not 1.2. Sorry for the error.

I have found several other large nephrite jade cicada with similar designs and scripts on them. Therefore it is very apparent they are all copies.

But where and when were they made?

B

You said

"I believe there are no chances whatsoever for these large Hongshan pieces being authentic and archaic Hongshan jade carvings because the large sizes of such nephrite jade carvings actually work against their authenticities in this case:

"(1) There are no records of such large nephrite rough or this type of nephrite ever being found in Hongshan or in excavated Hongshan tombs;"


Even according to you, not "copies" of anything, not even 'modern fakes' of ancient. Are modern inventions like nearly all you show.

Good luck,
Cal

Hi, Cal:

Long time no hear. I guess it is clever of you in trying to quote my own words in using against me. However, I really believe you need to read all the contents of my messages again and do not misquote me.

You said: "Even according to you, not "copies" of anything, not even 'modern fakes' of ancient"

I said:

"(4) Some of them look very similar in their designs, almost like copies of each other or of an older piece"

Therefore I did not say what you said I said. You said what you believed I said.

There is a major difference.

Again, like a few other forum members, you are too gunho in proving me wrong you that do not even bother to learn what my questions are or in attempting to answer them. Therefore, your message really serves no purpose whatsoever.

A few of the members kept calling the nephrite jade materials in making these large Hongshan style jade carvings "cheap and low quality" materials. In another thread where I posted some larger nephrite rocks that was sold at US$20 or more a kg, they called them rejects. The problem is they have no idea how they would define good quality nephrite jade. They may not even be able to identify the material of a jade carving by picture alone. They have not spent time in buying and studying different "jade" materials. In short, all they expressed were their personal opinions, nothing more and nothing less.

Cal, have you ever tried to obtain a piece of genuine nephrite rough or rock, with a S.G. of at least 2.90 and a hardness of at least 5.5 that weighs at least 2 kg and has a length of at least 10 inches or more?

Please do try to find one. Even if you can find one please do tell me how much it would cost you.

I do not believe many of these large Hongshan style nephrite jade carvings could be made after the 70s. I am not even sure they are really "Hongshan Style" items, that are the terms dealers gave to them. The easier way to trash all of these carvings are to claim they were made of "cheap and inferior material". Anita did post tons of pictures showing tons of Hongshan styles fakes sold by dealers in China. She said they were all made of junky materials. I agreed with her. However, that makes any large pieces made of genuine nephrite "interesting" due to the difficulty and expenses in obtaing such materials in China, wheterh in today's market or during any times in China.

There were no known nephrite mines inside China. None that could be confirmed and not in large enough supplies to make all these large "copies". The hetian jades came from XinJiang were different in appearance and quality.
A few of these large Hongshan style jade carvings were made of unique types of nephrites that could not be found anywhere. A few were made of "black" nephrite jades with a S.G. of 2.95 and a hardness of 6.0 I would not call them "low quality". I have one nephrite apollo with reddish minerals inside the nephrite structure.

I believe due to the "fear" of so many fake Hongshan jade carvings, many colllectors are very scared to touch or study any of them. Granted that it has also become harder and harder to find any decent pieces recently. I have to say 95% of the Hongshan style pieces are now so bad that they do not even deserve to be studied.

Can you show us any genuine Hongshan pieces owned by you or the criteria you use to authenticate them? Well, I am not sure too many of us can. Even I can show you a genuine Hongshan piece, how would you ever be convinced if you are not sure yourself? For that matrer, do you agree with Diasai that Pipane's Hongshan jades are real? Why?

Bill

Bill,

I must admit I didn't read the full thread, I want to say again these is low/ cheap quality jade most probably produce in the same workshop.

Size, type of jade, carving (scripts) are phony.

But I didn't come to tell you this. I would like to show what is HS 'scripts' from books and from my personal experience.

Hi, Pipane:

I actually have to thank you for posting examples of some of these Hongshan scripts because a few of them were indeed listed on the Hongshan jade books I have.

The problems with the examples of these scripts are:

(1) The jade carvings with these scripts were posted on jade books that were not published by the offficial sources;

(2) The origin of these pieces were not clearly stated and/or documented.

There seem not to be any studies regarding Hongshan scripts. Therefore instead of attacking those examples I have posted here, may be somebody would post some authentic Hongshan jades with scripts here instead. Just like you have done, for once I agree that you may have contributed positively to this discussion.

Regarding to "cheap and low quality jade" as stated by you, I am truly puzzled?

Please do clarify what exactly is "cheap and low quality jade"? What is your definition of jade. The reason I am saying that is because almost all of the Hongshan jade pieces jade pieces you had posted in this forum so far were apparently made of "jade" but instead some types of ugly hard stones. Therefore, can one trash any Hongshan style pieces based on their materials alone or in the same token ignore all authentic Hongshan jade carvings because they were not made of jade? Please do enlighten me. Thank you.

Bill

From my personal experience this would be HS scripts too...

Dear Pipane,

this bead is exeptional, thank you for showing. I hope Bill will finally learn something from you.

Best Greetings,
Diasai

Okay, Diasai:

So you believe all these Hongshan style pieces posted or sold by Pipan are genuine without even need to look at them personally?

So you believe this bead is exceptional, does that mean it is genuine?

Please do explain to all other members why you believe it is exceptional or even genuine?

Thanks.

B

P.S. Wonder what Anita will think about it?

And these too, but of course that is just my personal point of view ;)

Bill,
You are adopting the old ploy of shooting the messenger because you don't like the message.

Unlike you, I travel regularly to Asia, and have seen not only the jade markets but also the jade carvers working near Lake Tai. I have visited Hong Kong over 150 times and China, Taiwan, Singapore, the Philippines, Thailand and elsewhere on numerous other occasions. I hope to be going to Shantou this Friday, if my visa turns up.

My photos of the pile of "jade" rocks has obviously annoyed you, because it discounts your latest theory that you cannot buy cheap jade material in China. So inexpensive was it that it was left unguarded in a pile in the street.

Now I use the word "jade" somewhat loosely, as the Chinese do, who often refer to it as "new jade". That is why I prefer "hardstone" to describe most of the modern materials. You say it is serpentine. I say you cannot tell that from a photograph, and such ridiculous comments only further prove your inexperience.

I have seen in the markets, items called "jade" made from a huge variety of minerals including nephrite, jadeite, serpentine, bowenite, antigorite, jasper, aventurine, chrysoprase, etc; even carved soda glass bottles.

Stuck in your house for two years, with a pile of books, a computer and a google search, you claim now to be an expert. Go to China Bill, and find out the answers that you seek, and stop posting your ridiculous theories as fact.

Tony

Dear Bill,

I would like to ask you stop posting such cheap, badly made fake stone carvings here, trying to find any justifications for them. Please join David on his travel with Gou because you both have to learn something. Sorry Bill that I am so unfriendly with you. I do not even know why you are so unfriendly with Pipane? I see that he has much more experience and insight than you. What is your problem Bill?

Diasai

Diasai:

You should distance yourself from Pipane. He used multiple phony names in posting his Hongshan pieces in different forums or groups and was bounced from the Yahoo Hongshan group. Nobody knows what his true identity is. He pretended to be a beginner and knew nothing about jades when he posted a warrring state piece in this forum a while ago. Then he started becoming an expert in Hongshan and posted all these questionable HS pieces. He is a dealer who is supposedely living in China but he is not Chinese and has nothing to do with any official Hongshan experts. His main evaluation criteria for an authentic Hongshan piece is "Bao Jiang", a new jade term that was newly invented. He used deregulatory gay joke in attacking me in this forum. In short, he had personal agenda and is indeed a dealer who has been promoting his web site. Yet you kept giving approvals for his Hongshan jades and called them authentic without any types of evidences or proofs. I do not even know he really owns all these jades he posted here or not. In the past, when requesting information on the HS jades posted on his site, all the information regarding the pieces came from individual collectors in China. He was apparently a middle man. He also once claimed there was no authentic Hongshan turtle carapace until I proved there was indeed an excavated one.

Therefore, I do not trust anything posted by him.

I believe may be you should also go with David to China. But alas, what is the purpose? Say you can find an really authentic Hongshan piece, dug up from the tomb with Professor Guo and post in this forum when you come back. Do you believe anybody would believe you?

Right now, there is no authority in Hongshan jades whom we can trust. In short, anybody's opinions are almost as valid as another person's

How many collectors do you believe can genuinely distinguish antique and modern tool marks found on jade carvings and are able to authenticate and date them correctly without fault?

Bill

P.S. Can you answer the qusetion when, where, how and why all these large depicalble Hongshan jade carvings were made? Have you owned and studies any of them? If you have, please post a couple to tell us why they were so depicable. Post a few genuine one from your collection and let us compare them side by side.

For those who keep attacking and calling all these pieces are "modern fakes", why do you not post some of your best and genuine Hongshan pieces here so that we can admire them?

Dear Bill

No need to ask what I think about Pipane's treasure, those chicken scratched stones worth nothing to the world, not an art, not an archaeology evidence, they are pieces of cheap tricks came out after the news of Hongshan visual art or symbols engraved on the tomb wall was found by Chinese archaeologists. And those symbols were not related to any of Chinese written Character of both ancient and modern.

This finding is not that special, since we found visual art on the cave walls of any Neolithic Cultures all over the world like painting, engraving, craving..etc.
---------------------------

The following basic knowledge will never be applied on any of fake jades.

1.Jade is a beautiful stone.

2.Jade possessed "jingqi," an essential force.

3.Jade was the purest form of "yang," a positive force.

4.Jade is a stone with supernatural qualities, to perform rituals of worship.

5.Jade objects were fashioned in a variety of shapes, often with special incised marking, to enhance the object's power as a medium between man and the spiritual world.

*Quoted from Teng Shu-p'ing; "A Theory of the Three Origins of Jade Culture in Ancient China".

Do Pipane's treasure have the above qualities?..none!!! And those beads from the self-publishing books look like engraved symbols found on the pottery of Yangshao culture in the Hwang He valley, why it was on Hongshan jade beads?...how that symbols is so important to be engraved on those beads?
------------------------------------------

About the so-called Chinese Characters found on Hongshan jades, I surely think that there are super fantasy + day dream fakes.

The invention of oracle bones have hundreds of yrs development away from those engraved symbols found on Hongshan grave.
----------------------------
About Hongshan and Shang Dynasty.

The discovery of the Hongshan ceremonial areas with round and square platform altars, the concept of the earth is square, and the heaven is round, and that idea was handed down to the Shang Dynasty and to the later Dynasties.


Shang jade has some connection with iconography of Hongshan jades. Those engraved symbols found by Chinese archaeologists may be the hundreds of yrs early development of Shang oracle bones.

When I was young, I learned from the history that Chinese written characters were invented from the cracks of cow bone from the heat of fire, that theory have been revised 20 yrs ago, since there was no burnt marks found on any Shang oracle bones. Uptil now we do not know how Chinese invented their first written characters, but not on those cockroaches you found on eBay.

I think you and Diasai are very much confused collectors without basic knowledge that I have never seen before. Pls be back on track and try to collect beautiful stones.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Hi, Anita:

While I agree whole-heartedly with you that most of these "genuine" Hongshan pieces posted by Pipane are indeed "cheap tricks". I also agree that "jade" should be "beautiful stones" and should not be material that look like junks. However, the quality of the jade sometimes cannot be used as the only criterion in authenticating or dating a jade carving. If the quality of the material is the only criterion then many of my jade pieces would be authentic jade carvings.

There should never be just one single criterion or standard in using to authenticate or date a jade carving. Many criteria such as styles, forms, carvings, tool marks, weathering, etc. must be used together and comparing them with known authentic archaic jade pieces.

One time you said a Hongshan jade locust piece was fake based on the fact that there was no locust in ancient China. I did some researches and found that was not correct.

I understand you do not believe there are any chances that an average collector would ever find a piece of authentic Hongshan jade carving but yet you had purchased some very nice one yourself.

You seem to also believe many Hongshan style jade carvings found in China were made of junk non-jade materials. Yet you found a very nice jade turtle not too long ago near Hong Kong.

The fact is this, while I never believe many of these large Hongshan style nephrite carvings are archaic or authentic, I equally cannot accept that they are made modernly. There is simply no way whatsoever.

Please try to find a piece of nephrite (S.G. 2.90 or higher and hardness of 5.5 or higher) that will weigh at least 2 kg and has a length of 12 inches.
If you can find more than 1, please tell me how much you have to pay for them.

Have you seen any large Hongshan jade carvings made of real nephrite in either China or Hong Kong that weighs at least 1 kg and has a length (or height) of 10 inches? How much are they selling for?

When many of the jade collectors do not use common sense and are crazy enough in bidding on all these supposedly white hetian jade carvings for very high prices. I believe they were truly mislead.

I believe many of these white nephrite jade carvings are modern and are not made of genuine hetian jades.

On dealer was selling a antique archaic ring not too long ago. I got it at quite cheap price and only found it made of serpentine. I notified the dealer and he was quite shocked because he got this from a Soetheby auction as a jade ring. He graciously refunded the money to me. There are many jade collectors would only buy from auction houses so they can depend on the provenance. May be they are the wise one? Or?

Bill

Tony:

You surely are making a lot of assumptions just like Anita was making assumption about Diasai.

Do I have to report to you every trip I made?

Yes, you bragged about your traveling in China or other places and even visited "jade" factory and yet you couldn't tell real nephrite jade from serpentine. What kind of experts are you? I sure do hope you really know more about ceramic as you know about jade.

I hope you still remember what happened to you last time when you were bragging about your expertise and honesty in ceramics. Your bragging forced another member to post one of the not so genuine ceramic piece he bought from you. I hope you had resolved the problem since then.

So, you are the jade expert? Why don't post some of the jades in your collection and let us admire?

It is sad that you believe you know so much about nephrite jade you automatically assume every single piece of jade carving found in the current market are modern and yet at the same time you are selling all your pieces on eBay as 100% genuine.

How interesting.

Bill

Mr. Tony:

Since you said you had traveled so much including visiting jade factories, have you seen them using large piece of nephrite roughs to carve any large jade carvings (at least 1 kg) and then turn around to sell them below costs?

Please do post some pictures here and let us learn. Thanks.

Bill

P.S. So far none of the other forum members can explain when, where, how and why these larege Hongshan style nephrite jade carvings were made. Yet they had already declared all of the as "modern fakes" and not "arts". How absurd!

Show me some evidences!

Show me recent pictures of where all these larege "modern nephrite fakes" are being made. Not old pictures where serpentine pieces are made.

Since Mr. Tony traveled so much in China and other places. I challenge him to bring back a piece of nephrite rock or rough (with at least a S.G. of 2.90 or higher and a hardness of 5.5 or higher) that is at least 2 kg and with a length of at least 10 inches long. Better yet, if he can get such a piece for under $20.

Bill

Dear Bill

Pls update the following data:-

1)wholesale and retail price of raw nephrite in China of both local and imported are very much different.

2)Wholesale and retail price of factory waste, altered, calcified, uneven color nephrite left over from the nice work of jade carving factories in China are very very cheap.

3)Achaic jades are translucent, fine material and workmanship. The non-translucent nephrite will be used only for tools, not ritual objects. The ancient artesans will not spend time to grind ugly stones.

4)Fakers can fake anything.

5)Chinese jade factories have computers with internet connection.

6)Chinese jade dealers and factories owners can speak and understand English pretty well.

7)They can copy any jades from any books over hundred pieces within 24 hours soon after the books were on the shelves.

8)Thay can made to orders from overseas.

9)labour in China is not that cheap, some hard stone carving factories are moved to Vietnam.

FYI

Have fun
Anita Mui

Hi, Anita:

These are my responses to your seven theories:

1)wholesale and retail price of raw nephrite in China of both local and imported are very much different.

I have posted my responses to this in a new thread. Please read when it comes out.

2)Wholesale and retail price of factory waste, altered, calcified, uneven color nephrite left over from the nice work of jade carving factories in China are very very cheap.

I am sorry, from this one sentence I really believe you have no idea what you are talking about regarding raw nephrite. Do you know how absurd this may sound? Yes, there would be indeed leftover from jade factory, but nephrite? You must be joking. Have you visited any of these jade factories? You mean they are using large nephrite roughs to make their "jade carvings"? How big are these carvings and how much they are selling them for? Must be a lot to break even.

You have to really understand one thing here, these large Hongshan modern fakes that were made of nephrite we were talking about would require a nephrite rock of 2 kg and a length of at least 12 inches to carve. Wow, if they are left overs from jade carvings made in these jade factories, please do tell me how large such jade carvings (made in the jade factories) would be and whom they are selling them to? Now material used for smaller jade carvings that weigh less than 100 gram are very easy to find and could be indeed left overs from the jade factories but larger nephrite roughs like these? I hope you are not joking and I do believe you really need to visit these jade factories to see for yourself and do not just make up stories here.

3)Achaic jades are translucent, fine material and workmanship. The non-translucent nephrite will be used only for tools, not ritual objects. The ancient artesans will not spend time to grind ugly stones.

That would be only true to a certain point. First of all you cannot use "translucency" alone to determine the quality of jade material. Secondly, even a jade piece is translucent it would not make it archaic. Thirdly, not all archaic jade carvings were made of even "jade", but with non-jade materials such as bowenite and feldspar. Therefore, material alone would not decide their authenticity or archaicness. Also, your criteria for fine material may be different than that of other collectors such as Pipane. Lastly, I never call these large Hongshan style nephrite jade carvings archaic. You did. I just said they could not be made modern.

4)Fakers can fake anything - that is only true to a certain extent. First of all, fakers can no longer fake the same Hongshan carving and polishing skills found on authentic Hongshan jade carvings unless they are willing to spend 10 years or a life time in carving or polishing one piece. Even then they simply would not know the skills in carving such piece. It is like cloisonne, most of the artisans who knew how to make good cloisonne had died and not too many new artisan were wiling to learn such skills. Same applied to jade carvers, many of the jade carvers simply could not make a living in today's China and may of them had changed their professions. (This is a fact) Secondly, faker's ultimate goal is to make a living or a quick profit, when the material cost and labor cost exceeds the selling price of their fakes, how long do you believe they can last. Please use common sense and DO NOT just try to stereotype everything and make up some unfounded theory such as "there was no locust in ancient China".

5)Chinese jade factories have computers with internet connection.

Why would they need computers to make such simple carvings? If they have such wonderful equipment, why would they not make expensive jade fakes like Han jade fakes instead. Those can be sold for tons of money. Again, use your common senses. Go to a jade factory and found out what they were faking - fakes they can make a quick buck. Why would they fake large Hongshan style nephrite jade carvings? Are they that stupid?

6)Chinese jade dealers and factories owners can speak and understand English pretty well.

Yes so what? What does that have anything to do with making jade fakes? Now you truly lose me. You can speak English too, I guess. Would that make you want to make fake jades?

7)They can copy any jades from any books over hundred pieces within 24 hours soon after the books were on the shelves.

Now I really have to agree with Diasai. It is not about the copying part from the books. It is about in spending 24 hours in making a nice piece of large Hongshan jade style nephrite carving. First he had to find the large piece of nephrite rough? Where in the world can he find one? or may be 100 pieces? Then make them into different forms and styles, add weathering or staining to them in 24 hours. Okay, say they can do all these and then turn around and sell them for US $15 to 18 a piece? They must be the most stupid fakers I have ever known. Are you sure they are Chinese?

8)Thay can made to orders from overseas.

yes, for expensive fake pieces they can make money. sure. But to lose money or break even.
Think, Anita, think!!!!

9)labour in China is not that cheap, some hard stone carving factories are moved to Vietnam.

Now at least I have to agree with you. At least you know what you are talking about. Even manual labor in China is not necessarily cheap, but skilled laborer such as a skilled jade carver? Why in the heck would they spend so much time in making a large nephrite jade fake that nobody would pay money for. They can turn around and carve whole bunch of smaller jadeite carving or a Han fake with the same time they would have to spend on a large nephrite piece and ends up making a lot of money. They must be the most stupid jade carvers in the world and therefore are willing to work for peanuts.

Where is the logic?

Now Vietnam, that would be a thought. May be I should open a jade factory in Vietnam (just joking). But alas, I have to first train them to "carve" jade then where would I provide them with these large nephrite roughs. I guess I need to go to BIG SUR beach in California and found them on the beach myself. Do you know you are still able to drill off a large nephrite boulder at the ocean floor there yourself and haul it away. Wow, I believe I would do that and I can cut the material cost to $2 a kg because I would work for free. But it would be quite expensive to ship them to Vietnam. I need to figure that one out before I open up my jade factory in Vietnam.

I believe I would just buy them from eBay. That would be much cheaper, you know.

Bill

Anita, had stated:

"1) Wholesale and retail price of raw nephrite in China of both local and imported are very much different.”

While I in general respect her opinions regarding dynasty jades, I believe her knowledge in the prices and availability of nephrite jades are truly lacking and I believe my response to her deserves a separate thread:

My goodness, Anita, where did you get your information from?

Did you not remember that I had done some researches regarding wholesale prices of nephrite before? Well, please allow me to refresh your memory.

First of all, you cannot find any large amount of nephrite in today’s China, especially large sized nephrite rocks (those that are 2 kg or larger). There are no records of known nephrite mines in ancient China or in modern China.

Therefore, most nephrite rocks especially the large one had to be imported from overseas.

If you refer to the following article “B.C. Nephrite Report, 2004” written by Kirk Makepeace posted at the following link at the Friends of Jade web site:

http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2004/3/29/bc-nephrite-report-2004.html

The article says:

“I mine three of the four nephrite deposits in British Columbia—Polar, Kutcho, and Ogden. Ogden remains closed but stands to reopen shortly as market conditions demand some of its unique jade. The other mines, including Cassiar, with which I have no involvement, worked this summer.

Polar: Polar remains one of the most popular jades for our Asian and North American clients. Polar at its best is ideal for great jewelry and sculptures. Lower-grade Polar, with its tendency to be harder than other nephrites, makes great accessory products such as souvenir carvings, tiles, etc.

Unfortunately, the best of Polar production appears to be over. As the mine goes deeper into the mountain, costs increase enormously so the viability of the Polar mine for long term production becomes increasingly doubtful. About 40 tonnes of high-grade material remains in our Vancouver inventory. The price of this material is rising as demand increases and the likelihood grows that what we have is the “end of the good stuff.”

In 2004 we removed a total of 70 tonnes from Polar, but less than 10 percent was high-grade.

Mining will continue through 2005, but mining beyond that date depends on quality and demand.

Kutcho: A new jade tile facility recently opened in Mexico, which resulted in my optioning the Kutcho jade claims for their production needs. They removed approximately 150 tonnes of B.C. nephrite, the bulk of which was for jade counter tops, tiles, and sinks. Designers and architects are increasingly interested in jade for its architectural backlit properties combined with the lure of its exotic name and its structural superiority. One of the premier hotels in Las Vegas will be unveiling a wall of jade in January, 2005.

Kutcho still holds the largest nephrite deposits on earth, but producing for traditional jade uses is difficult because of rising mining costs. The success of larger scale production for tiles and similar products will allow the production of jewelry and carving jade as a by-product. This combination of uses appears to be a key factor in continuing to operate Kutcho.

Cassiar:The former asbestos mine will likely never be reopened to produce asbestos. However, the infrastructure remains—roads, buildings, and the massive open pit containing the jade deposit. Once the mine closed, management allowed jade scavengers to go through the vast (measured in millions of tonnes) waste dump of serpentine rock in search of blasted and otherwise discarded jade pieces that had never been a priority of the original mine.

Using hydraulic excavators, the jade pickers sift through the rock and pick up pieces of jade ranging from a few lbs to 1-2 tonnes. Although most is of very poor value, they do find enough of the unique chrome-colored and dark green jade to pay their costs of operation.

In 2004 a new access road is being blasted into the old open pit to try to reach the original jade veins. Some very high-grade jade remains at this site, but the costs will be high and production limited. Demand for the unique properties of this jade has allowed prices to escalate to meet the high costs associated with this mining operation. Cassiar jade will be available in limited quantities at prices from $20-$50/kg for bulk exports to China, more than double what it sold for before the asbestos mine closed. Expect smaller amounts available to lapidary and small market users as well as prices about $20-$50 per US pound (not kilos).”
**************************************************
Sentences that would be with special interests to you would be:

“Polar remains one of the most popular jades for our Asian and North American clients.”

“Unfortunately, the best of Polar production appears to be over. As the mine goes deeper into the mountain, costs increase enormously so the viability of the Polar mine for long term production becomes increasingly doubtful. About 40 tonnes of high-grade material remains in our Vancouver inventory. The price of this material is rising as demand increases and the likelihood grows that what we have is the “end of the good stuff.”

“In 2004 we removed a total of 70 tonnes from Polar, but less than 10 percent was high-grade.”

“Kutcho still holds the largest nephrite deposits on earth, but producing for traditional jade uses is difficult because of rising mining costs.”
“Cassiar jade will be available in limited quantities at prices from $20-$50/kg for bulk exports to China, more than double what it sold for before the asbestos mine closed. Expect smaller amounts available to lapidary and small market users as well as prices about $20-$50 per US pound (not kilos).”

“Prices in Canada, stated in US dollars:

Grade aa (jewelry) $20-$50/kg
Grade a $10-$15/kg
Grade b (carving) $5-10/kg”

“These prices are for bulk exports (mine run), based on 5000-20,000 kg purchases. Prices for small collectors, users, individual carvers would be double this.”

What did these tell you? The wholesale prices of nephrite jades are cheap? Remember, the report came out in 2004 and now the Canadian dollar are at par with U.S. dollars, that means the price of nephrite from B.C will cost at least 40-50% more in today’s market.

Well to obtain this bulk price for the grade B nephrite, a Chinese merchant would have to purchase at least 5,000 kg of them. Wow, if he uses only 2 kg to carve one of these "modern Hongshan fakes", he would end up with 2,500 pieces of them. Did you see the whole streets in China full of these large Hongshan nephrite jade carving selling for US $20 a piece? You once told me even a small Hongshan style nephrite jade turtle (about 100 gram) would cost me US $20.

In another more recent article written by the same author and posted in the same site:

http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2006/7/27/the-state-of-the-worlds-jade-markets.html

The State of the World's Jade Markets
“The dramatic decrease of the value of the US dollar and resulting increase in value of the Canadian dollar has hurt the profitability of mining operations. The producers have been conditioned to expecting much of their profit on the difference between the two currencies. In 2001 the difference in the rates was 1.60 CDN to $1.00 US; now, instead of a 60 percent Canadian premium, the currencies are virtually at par: 1.09 CDN to US$1.00. As almost all jade sales are conducted in USD, the exchange rate has seriously affected our Canadian cash flow. Buyers are reluctant to accept a currency fluctuation as a strong argument for increasing our prices. Other inflationary costs, (OIL, OIL, OIL) have also hurt jade operations. Government regulations continue to tighten, making mining in Canada viable for only the very rich and well-financed large corporations. It would be difficult to bring a new jade discovery in Canada into production.”

One of the major problems with mining “new” nephrite is if the cost of mining nephrite is lower than that of the wholesale price of nephrite, then nephrite mining would be reduced or even completely stopped. Same phenomenon had ad happened to both silver and gold mining. This article was published on July 27, 2006. Almost two years later, the current situation is much worst, because as of today, $1 Canadian is equal to exactly $1 US and the cost of oil had gone up immensely. This means higher production costs in mining the nephrite and higher transportation costs in delivering the nephrite to China. Using common sense, how can they obtain nephrite from overseas in such low "wholesale prices" as you claimed and the delivered them to China to make these large nephrite fakes. Then sell them back to U.S.A. for less than US $18 a piece. Is that not a little bit absurd.

In short, even the middle of the grade nephrite would not cost less than US $20 per kg. Other than Canada, there are really not many countries who can rival the quantities of B.C. nephrite being exported to China. May be now you would argue there was a new nephrite mine being discovered in Vietnam and since the labor costs there were dirt cheap, therefore they could sell cheap nephrite to China at $1 a kg and it would only cost $1 in labor cost in making them. If that is indeed the case, I guess I have admit you are absolutely right.

I wonder next time you are going to China, can you look around for any large nephrite rocks than would weigh 2 kg and has a length of at least 12 inches and see how much you have to pay for it.

Good luck.

Bill

Dear Bill

Thank you for background of a hungry wolf behind the username: "Pipane"...selling fakes must be very tricky...just like what he's capable of.

If it true, it would be a good warning to unaware dirt collecters.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Bill,

I don't care who Pipane in reality is, as much as I don't care who Anita in reality is. I am evaluating jade, and Pipane has shown much more convincing examples of authentic Hongshan jade than You and Anita have ever posted. Almost everything I have seen from you so far Bill, is at least to say fake. Bill, I repeatedly stated that these stones you posted, are made for the western market and are fake, I cannot believe that after all your studies you still believe that you may find authentic HS jade on ebay for 2,49 US$.

Anita you are constantly repeating yourself in the enumeration of philosophical qualities jade should posses, unfortunately none of the elements you enumerate can be applied in the real appraisal of neolithic jade. The main thing that make me suspicious now about You and Bill is that you are both very hostile to Pipane and you are not able to recognize that often he is right with what he is saying.

Diasai

Diasai:

The problem is not that I doubt that you do have expertise in Hongshan jade carvings, more so than Anita and than Pipan or may be any other members in this forum.

The problem is with your statement:

"Pipane has shown much more convincing examples of authentic Hongshan jade..."

Please do tell me which pieces posted so far by Pipan you believe are authentic Hongshan pieces and please do explain to us why you believe they are authentic with evidence or supports.

Furthermore, it can be true that I may not have a lot of authentic Hongshan pieces, but are you sure you have a lot of them? Do you mind posting just a few of your "authentic Hongshan pieces" here and let us examine them. So far I have not seen you posted a single piece of Hongshan jade carving for somebody who had collected Hongshan for 40 years. May I respectfully ask why?

I have not been able to learn one thing regarding Hongshan from you. I do not know what criteria you are using to authenticate Pipane's Hongshan jade carvings, Anita's Hongshan jade carvings, my Hongshan jade carvings or your own Hongshan jade carvings.

I was told by a very honest jade dealer that in order to own an authentic Hongshan piece one had to be willing to pay at least US $15,000 or more.
Those "authentic" Hongshan pieces posted on all these Hongshan jade books with pieces from the writer's own personal collection are very often in the price range of US 15,000 to $ 250,000. Can we trust their opinions and would anybody bold enough to pay such prices.

For that matter, are there any members in this forum who really know what they are talking about regarding Hongshan jades? If there are, would they tell us how you authentic a Hongshan pig dragon?

Of course, you have to care how a person is, if that person is a dealer with whom you would deal with. If you believe Pipane's Hongshan pieces are authentic (your own words), do you not have the desire to purchase a few pieces from him? So far, neither his attitudes, actions or opinions had convinced me that he knew what he talked about regarding Hongshan jades. Worse, he is not a person with integrity, therefore there would be no way I would want to ever have to deal with him. A true jade collector has to be a person with honesty and integrity first, that is my personal opinion. He should value a jade piece with its beauty and artistry than the monetary value he could obtain from owning such a piece.

Of course most of these nephrite carvings are fakes, do you believe I would be naive enough to be able to obtain a genuine Hongshan piece for a few dollars. Give me a break. But to call these large Hongshan nephrite fakes modern fakes. Please explain to me how they could have faked it in order to sell them so cheap. I would like to find out so I may open my own jade factory. Not many of these jade collectors really study jade materials but continue to make assumptions about raw nephrite. Almost every single one of their opinions expressed in this forum are often without any evidences or proofs but are mostly pure assumptions. That is why I beg to differ.

Please DO NOT accuse me of being hostile to Pipane. Pipane is a very nasty person (in my opinion) who had personally attacked me before with very low down jokes and to me that is unforgivable. You can attack the jade items posted by another member but you should never attack their characters. I remember one time you were extremely hostile to one member here and to another one in the other forum. Do tell me why!

Bill

http://www.pipane.com/index.php?rubric=3&filter=period&filterId=19

here are only a few from the superb HS section Bill:

- Very Rare HongShan White Qin Jade Eagle
- HONGSHAN CULTURE JADE PENDANT
- COUPLE OF HONGSHAN JADE BEADS
- HONGSHAN JADE BEAD
- RARE HONGSHAN JADE CICADA PENDANT
- RARE HONGSHAN CULTURE JADE BRACELET
- HONGSHAN CULTURE JADE BRACELET


Sorry Bill to say this, but I do not know any pieces in your collection that can compete with the above ones from Pipanes collection.

If the above pieces will reveal as fakes I will stop collecting HS jade forever.

Diasai

Diasai:

You seem to have selective or short memory. Not too long ago Pipane posted this thread “auction record scandal (Hong Shan Jade)”:

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=31551#31572

He commented: “2008 asian antique auction records book has been published recently, a Hongshan pig dragon has been sold at Beijing Han hai auction (first jade/ sold at 1 560 000 RMB).
And obviously it is a FAKE! a bad one>>>

This is how it goes...all experts around me witness there is more and more fake auctioned...”

He did not post any evidence, reference or proof to support his accusation. He seems to believe he knows more than the prestigious Hanhai auction company in China. He accused all these experts knowingly selling Hongshan fakes, yet he claims he is selling the authentic HS jades himself.

You asked him, “Dear Pipane,
could you kindly post a photo/scan of the pig dragon?” He never did. Anita and I did.

Anita commented, “It's totally authentic. It's a late Hongshan style going to be Shang "oval-shaped coil dragon"…..”

Pipane responded, “From archaic jade point of view this light green "jade" color is "young". The exact same type of jade would have a different color if it would have been carved 5000 years ago.”

What kind of baloney is this?

I never did see you express your opinions. I wonder why.

Therefore while I do not doubt that you may know in how to tell authentic Hongshan jades should look like, but I do not believe even true Hongshan jade experts can authenticate a Hongshan style jade carving by pictures alone (especially only low resolution pictures) and be able to authenticate them with 100% accuracy.

Therefore, while I do not doubt you are probably much better than most forum members in your ability to tell how an authentic Hongshan piece should look, however, I do not believe either your opinions or that of Pipane as two basic unknowns in the jade world regarding the authenticities of any Hongshan jade carvings will cut too much mustard in the real world.

Would you put money where you mouth is and spend thousands of dollars in buying those “authentic” Hongshan jade carvings from Pipane, a basic middle man who knows nothing of Hongshan jade, who does not actually own most of these Hongshan jades posted in his web site, who could not produce any opinions regarding any of the jade he sells, who used “bao-jiang” as the only criterion in authenticating Hongshan jades, who kept posting ugly Hongshan non-jade pieces in this forum, who called color of authentic Hongshan jade carving “young”, who believes Ming Qing jades collectors are able to tell no lines can be reflected on carvings lines on archaic jades, who did not know that there was indeed authentic Hongshan jade turtle carapace existed. It makes one wonder where in the world he picked up his intensive knowledge of Hongshan jades from?

You said, “but I do not know any pieces in your collection that can compete with the above ones from Pipanes collection.”.

There are several problems with your statements:

(1) Pipane does not own all these “authentic” Hongshan jade pieces selling in his web site. He never did. You do not even know if he really own any “authentic” HS jades.
(2) You have not seen all my Hongshan jades.
(3) You never show even one piece of your Hongshan piece in public and you have never explain why you believe a piece is authentic or fake with any concrete evidence or proof.

I believe all these “Hongshan” jades are a sham. All these jade dealers and jade book authors published books with their own authentic Hongshan jade collections or posting them in their own web sites. It is amazed how they could have obtained so many “authentic” Hongshan pieces without interference from the Chinese government who can absolutely confiscate such items as “protected national treasure”. Then they turn around in trying to sell them for thousands of dollars. The interesting part is that none of them would even attempt to buy back anything they sold for at half the price. What does that tell you?

Therefore, I believe it is much safer just to buy Qing dynasty mutton-fat jade carvings, at least I know they would go up in price due to diminishing supply of hetain jades.

Until either you or Pipan can show us some concrete proof or evidence in why the Hogshan jade carvings in either his or your collection are truly authentic, I can only take the words of either one of you with a grain of salt, nothing more, nothing less.

Best regards,

Bill

Thank you Diasai for your support thought it is true that in this communication world "the more you make smoke the more people think it is true". I appreciate that.

Fighting these Chicochai theories is not an easy task, especially when their supporters use any kind of means to discredit everything that goes against their Ebay/internet acquired expertise. I am talking about Bill in particularly through Anita seems to know more about antiques but she believes she master expertise on quite everything from Neolithic to present in any field, witch is just impossible, even experienced antique dealer and collector ask expert/lab advice when they buy something out of their field of expertise. Risk would be to high. That is the purpose/goal of antique dealing « provide expertized quality antiques »(how would you get customer otherwise?!)

The end of this thread shows that these people from Chicochai are trying to overtake this forum.

Funny to see how it works.

Sincerely,

Pipane,

Thats right Bill,
Try and discredit me by reposting more slanderous unsubstantiated posts from others. Just because something appears on the internet or in print, does not necessarily mean it is correct; a fact you seem regularly to ignore.

Just to set the record straight. You are the only person claiming that your hideous cicadas are old and made from nephrite, and the pile of "hardstone" rough blocks I photographed were serpentine. Why don't you find the photograph and repost it, so that others can see the idiocy of your assertions?

While you are researching that, why not post some cicadas like those you show above, from your Hongshan text books.

Tony

"Try and discredit me by reposting more slanderous unsubstantiated posts from others"

Slanderous/unsubstantiated: you want to start again Tony?
Your word against the most reputable European laboratory test?
Who would believe you?

Please stop discrediting the lab and me. Enough is enough.

Pierre van der Weerden, cruise boat director as I recall, now expert on Chinese ceramics.

Why don't you post the name of the lab that did your T.L test report, and see how many readers have heard of it. Elevated by you now to a status higher than Oxford Authentication, just who are you kidding?

"Pierre van der Weerden, cruise boat director as I recall, now expert on Chinese ceramics."

Anthony J Allen, chatered accountant, now authority in anything, from ceramics to bronze to stone etc...

So what, what does that have to do with the price of the fish or sheeps?

Tony, if I glue a terracota head of Julius Ceasar on the body of a Han stickman, and have it tested by your favorite lab, what will the report of your lab say?

With all your experience and expertise,you don't know yet that all they do is drilling 3 holes here and there, TL test the 100mg material collected, and give you an approximate date of firing of the object.

So, for you, the TL report would be good enough to pretend that the Ceasar stickman is an authentic Ptolemaic object?

Am I kidding???

Pierre,
May I remind you what you said about Maurice's lokhapala.

"Hello Call,

Yes, you are right too, I totaly agree with you, TL is not the best way to authenticate these days.

But it is the test that most "specialists" recognise as prove of authenticity.

Personnaly I don't believe in TL either.
Well, not entirely, for the reasons you gave.

A microscopy/stereoscopy is the best way to go.
(examination of the surface to analyse mineral concretions, plant micro-organisms, aging of material, etc...)
But not many labs are doing this unfortunately and not many dealers/auction houses understand that the best way is still the simplest one: the visual/microscopic authentication.

Have a nice day,
Pierre."


So you acknowledge you don't believe in T.L tests but you expect me to accept the test of a laboratory I have never heard of. I at least accept Oxford Authentication Ltd's test results, in the event there is a dispute as to age or authenticity.

Your comments about microscopy are just academic BS, borne of inexperience.

Tony

Tony,

Yes I don't believe in TL testing ONLY.
And, for what I know, Oxford doesn't do anything else. No surface analysis, no structure analysis, no streoscopy etc, etc...Do they even look at the piece to see if the style correspond to the period?

So, for unscrupulous dealers, it would be easy to wave a TL test and pretend my Ceasar Stickman is a unique authentic Ptolemaic piece of art.

Anyway, did you miss your flight to China?
If ever you are around Shanghai, I would be pleased and honored to invite you for diner.
Maybe we could solve our differences in a civilised manner and pleasant way.

Pierre.

I am so glad I do not collect ceramic.

When I first started collecting jades, I was quite trustworthy and naive. I bought several "neolithic jades" from this one dealer in California who sold one eBay. He posted on his web site articles for helping collectors in how to identify fake jades from authentic jades. He even gave me advices on jades and sent me a chapter of the jade book he was working on. Unfortunately all his jades were fakes. However, I did return some of them although it did take me a long time to get my money back. At least he did not refuse to refund my money.

I have been collecting both world and U.S. coins on and off for more than 20 years. I had occasionally dealt in bullion. Interestingly, most (at least 99%) coin dealers and bullion dealers are honest. Many times, a large transaction in bullion was made on phone with prices and quantities agreed verbally with no written confirmation (at least that is before internet and e-mail became popular) Once a deal was struck, the buyer had to send a cashier check to the seller the same day. Then the seller would send the bullion items to the buyer right away. It is very easy to cheat each other if one party is not honest. That seldom happens. The reason is the reputation of a "coin dealer" or "bullion dealer" is a "must". If you ever cheat one customer, no other coins collectors for dealers would ever deal with you. You will kill your livelihood. Honesty is the the most important priority of a coin dealer/bullion dealer. I sold some silver coins in two different coin shows to two different dealers. Neither one knows me and they did not even bother to check the silver coins I sold to them. I was truly amazed. But like I said, you could only cheat one time in the coin business!

About 6 months ago, I bought a San Francis Old Mint uncirculated silver dollar that was graded by one of the two most prestigious coin grading organization in the U.S. - PCGS. The coin was graded MS 70 (MS means Mint State and MS 70 is the highest grade any uncirculated coin can receive). I won the coin with a very high bid. Yet when I received the coin, I was very disappointed because this coin had hair-line scratches all over its reverse and was in worse condition than a same coin in MS 69 grade I already had. However, the dealer did not try to cheat me, he just counted on the grading of a professional grading agency, nothing more and nothing less. I was not happy as a customer to have to pay MS 70 price for a MS 69 coin (a lot of difference in price). I e-mailed the dealer. He not only allowed me to return the coin for a full refund but he paid for postage both ways (the original postage I paid him plus my returning postage.) I was duly impressed by the honesty and integrity of this dealer and I became one of his most loyal customers for life. I would trust him no matter what in the future because I know he has integrity and he would treat me fair and with respect. I would buy any coins from him without any hesitation.

Therefore, I believe I should have used what I learned from my collecting coins in my collecting jades. That is, the quality or even the bargain price of a jade item is not the most critical part. The honesty and integrity of the jade dealer is. I got burned because I did not learn from my experience. As Mr. Eric Hoffman had said his article, the Certificate of Authenticity of a jade item is only worth as much as that of a jade dealer (or to that effect). Now I would try to get to know a jade dealer before I would even buy anything from him or her.

If I would ever become a jade dealer and if I have sold an authentic piece that I am 100% sure it is authentic but after I have sold such a piece to a collector and the collector had it appraised by another expert and told me that is was a fake. Even I may not agree with his or her opinion or that of the expert he/she used, I would rather refund all his money to him because my reputation would be the most important thing to me. I know if I treat this customer right even this one time, he would keep buying more stuff from me afterwards because he knows I would take care of him no matter what. In life, a few things are more important than money, at least to me. Also, if the piece is truly authentic, I would have no troubles in selling it again and I would actually make more money because price of it can only go up. A genuine test for an honest coin dealer is always in trying to see: (1) If he would ever buy back anything he sold to you; (2) How much he would pay you for the stuff once he sold it to you. I wonder same test can apply to the jade dealers?

This is my two cents' worth as a coin and jade collector, nothing more and nothing less.

Bill

Dear Diasai

You just turned yourself into a Bixie of Pipane's crypt.

It is normal for people who bought fake (or going to buy) artifacts from one shop and have to protect (or to please shop owner for further discount) what they have bought (or going to buy).

You may be blind for a while. I do not blame what people choose to believe in even though it against the reality. You may still think that the earth is flat, and the earth is the centre of the universe.

Pipane and his another username as” Steven R”, has never mentioned anything in any posts about his treasure to educate the readers, and always be confused of the definition of "Bao Jiang". If he had no idea what he is talking about, pls keep his mouth shut.

Pipane never comes clean on any Asian antiques and art forums of both English and Chinese websites. How on earth I can trust this guy?

So what kind of knowledge he put in your head pls shine the light to me some.

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. The basic Chinese jade artifacts I posted up there applied to any period of Chinese jades since I have never found authentic Neolithic jade artifacts look ugly.

Dear Anita,

at least 4 and 7 is wrong!

4)Fakers can fake anything.

7)They can copy any jades from any books over hundred pieces within 24 hours soon after the books were on the shelves.

this is certainly not true, it is conjecture as much of what you say, I know this from my own personal experience!!!

I have tryed to obtain a copy of a jade from a museum/book. I have used my best established chinese connections to obtain it. No factory of replicas has been able to provide me with a copy of the artifact.

Anita, the problem with you is, that in every post you make at least 5 conjectures but you are unable to proof any of them.

Diasai

Dear Diasai

You are living in a limited source of what you are collecting, you just have internet and eBay for purchasing of fake jades.

I walk to the fresh market for buying food supplies every afternoon, there are 15 antique jade shops + 10 Myanmar jade shops around the fresh market. And the old people are sitting in the park showing what they have collected, they share, they talk, they learn, they trade, they exchange jades to each other who admire the art of jades. True or fakes are up to your own eyes.

I cross the boarder to Shenzhen every weekend, there are 5 department stores with nearly one hundred antique jade shops altogether plus over 40 street hawkers on the streets at night. I saw good fake, bad fake, immitation, replica, and what in the trend on the street junk and eBay. If all the sellers can access internet and understand English, you may have joy of buying fakes as reals.

So?..what jade in the book you want? If I find the nice fake one, I will take picture for you.


And why don't you contact Pinocchio, Chico, Skylink, and Yukting for what you want to fake.

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S.Some stone carving factories are using computerized stone cutting and carving machine, made in China...FYI

Dear Anita:

What you said in this message about Diasai is extremely unfair because most of your statements are assumptive and presumptuous.

You have no idea how and where Diasai has been acquiring his jade carvings including Hongshan jade carvings. You have not ever seen many of his jade carvings (I have only seen one myself). You probably have never met Diasia in person, yet you are making all these assumption about how he has been collecting his jades. Do you believe this is fair?

Yes, you went to all these jade markets for jade hunting. Yes, you paid a lot of money for some of your jade pieces. Yes, you know a lot about jade carvings especially those after Han dynasty. Yes, you own a lot of jade books and probably studied a lot. Yet, does that make you a true jade expert and that every piece you collect is "authentic" and accurately dated? Why would these Chinese jade dealers sell you their authentic jade pieces at bargain prices? How do you know they did not sell you all their fakes?

Your theory is quite wrong you know. On one hand, you believe there are a lot of fakes made by copying the authentic piece published on jade book and yet there are many one-of-a-kind jade piece that you would call fakes. Yes, it is easy for faker to copy the authentic pieces published on jade books to make fakes. But to create an unique piece with unique material, now how would you explain that? Why would they go through so much troubles in making a jade fake and then sell it at below cost? Just like you suggest, it would be much easier for them to just make copies.

Therefore, your own theory contradicts itself.

One time I show you a beautiful pig dragon (to me) that was made of real nephrite and with a piece of white agate in its mouth. You told me you could buy pig dragon similar to it for US$1 a piece in Hong Kong. Yet when I asked you to buy some for me or show pictures of them, you cannot do so.

You seem to make up theories as it goes.

Okay, I would like to get a copy of the yellow nephrite jade turtle carapace that was excavated in a Hongshan tomb and published on many Hongshan jade book and web site. Would you be able to find me one?

Bill

Anita, once again you suggested that I rely upon ebay and internet sources, this is absurd and and I would like to please you to stop this diffamation campaign.

If you don't mind, please find me a perfect replica of one of the below jade on you markets or find me a factory that can copy these prefectly.

I think it will be impossible for you and it will lead your fakers theory finally AD ABSURDUM.

Diasai

Dear Diasai

I do not want to turn this valuable place to be uncivilized, unfriendly, and uneducated forum like Chicco.

Whatever you said, you have discredit yourself in many topics posted here.

The readers here are clever enough to see right from wrong, fake from genuince, and experts from amatuers.

By the way, I will try my best to find those HS European collection for you.

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. I knew that behind the scence someone tried to attack and group me with Bill and Diasai. pls leave me out of this, I am neither their enemy nor alliance.

Hello Anita,

I will patiently wait for your proof, hoping that you find me some very nice replicas of the above ones.

Honestly I do believe that it will never arrive.

Best Greetings,
Diasai

Just for fun!

Want to make the hole deeper Bill?
You're welcome...

And thank you for giving me the opportunity to promote my website. What would I do without you? ;)

Have fun!

Pipane

!P.S. The basic Chinese jade artifacts I posted up there applied to any period of Chinese jades since I have never found authentic Neolithic jade artifacts look ugly."

Hello Anita,
ugly or not, beauty is a subjective point of view.

Diasai

Tony said:

“Just to set the record straight. You are the only person claiming that your hideous cicadas are old and made from nephrite, and the pile of "hardstone" rough blocks I photographed were serpentine. Why don't you find the photograph and repost it, so that others can see the idiocy of your assertions?”

Tony:

Do you have difficulty in reading my messages? Did I ever say I owned all these large nephrite cicadas I posted here in all these messages in this thread? Goodness, you really need to learn in how to read.

Did I ever say that they are indeed OLD? I said I couldn't believe they could be made modernly. What is your definition of OLD any way? By the way, what exactly is your definition of MODERN as used in modern jade carvings? Can you even tell me that?

Why don’t you find the picture you posted yourself? Better yet, since you traveled all the time to China as you said you were doing. Why don’t you go to the place where all these pile of “hardstones” were being found and get a piece back so you may test it. I have no troubles in identifying them as cheap serpentine rocks because I had studied more than 1 thousand pieces of rocks, roughs, slabs and carvings of different materials including jadeite, nephrite, serpentine, bowenite, jasper, aventurine, turquoise, agate, etc. Have you?

Idiocy? For somebody with your caliber, a writer of many books in ceramics and supposedly an expert in such field, how can you be so naive in believing such idiotic thing – that large nephrite rocks could be found and bought cheaply in China? From where in China? There are no nephrite mines in China, had I not told you that repeatedly? So these Chinese businessmen would import all these large nephrite rocks from overseas and just piled them up outside the jade factory? WHY?

Tony, Tony, please DO NOT insult the intelligence of these Chinese businessmen. Would you pile up all your ceramic outside in your back yard? How would you know all these ceramic you bought from all these Chinese businessmen were authentic if you believe they would be stupid enough to pile up all these nephrite rocks outside their jade factory? Do you think you are much smarter than them?

Bill

Dear Bill

I can not spend my time to read all of your posts, and this debate will never end, since you and Diasai are living in a dream and not trying to wake up. As the time goes by, you will realize that what I said is true....

In short, "what ever you and Diasai believe, I wash my hands out of this!"

Have fun
Anita Mui / Totally Skeptic!

Anita:

You listed seven of your theories and asked me for responses. Diasai called your theory (4) and (7) baloney (assumptions). I called them fantasies. Yet when I replied to them (just reposted the response to first one), you said you did not have time to read through them. How convenient! Then you add insult to injury by posting this picture of a piece of weathered jade to show that how they made faked antique jade artifact.

Anita, are you an expert in making fake antique jades?

If you carve over the weathered or stained jade surface of a jade stone to make fake antique jade, won't the carving lines would show up on top of the weathered or stained surface under a 10x or stronger loupe? While an genuine antique jade piece would have the weathering covered up the carving lines or the stains permeated from a crack line found on the jade carving into the inner jade structure of the jade carving? Won't it be easier for the faker to fake this weathering or stain after they finished with their carvings?

Secondly, you said the other parts would be used for expensive modern pendant, does that mean the antique fake jade carvings would be cheaper than the modern carving or equally expensive?

What happened to fakes without any weathering or stains?

You cannot just post a picture in trying to explain everything. You need to post real evidence and proof in supporting all your theories. If you said there were no locusts in ancient in China, you needed to study and back it up and not just made assumptions. Assumptions are only personal opinions and are not facts.

Bill

Dear Bill

The faker will not be that dumb, they just use the altered parts which can not be fake by any means, that altered parts will be carved into any jade artifacts, then blasted with sand, then put in pressurized chamber to produce lumps, finally soaked with alkaline solution to create whitening...is it clear enough?

About the locust, that fake locust showed by David A are a locust style found nowaday in any part of Asia. It was said to be ingrated from Africa to destroy crops in Asia in 20th century. And possibly there was no locust in ancient China.

For example, in Thailand there were no locusts found until 20th century. And the name we call locusts is borrowed from English, which mean that there are no locusts found in Thailand before 20th century since there is no Thai language to name them before. This is a simple archaeology theory to date something.

If the Neolithic artesan wanted to carve some icon he must create jade piece as a grasshopper which do not migrate and are less harmful than locusts, but a dumb David A. said "It's a jade locust!"

In addition to locust plague in Ancient China, I could not find one. If you could find the record, pls kindly enlight me.

Have fun
Anita Mui

There are locust plagues recorded in ancient China and when I did my research I did find quite a few of them. Locust had been enemies to the Chinese agricultures for centuries. However, I probably have to spend some time in checking on them again since I did not take any notes.

You seemed to know so much about making faking jades. Did you obtain such information from your reading or from your real obervations? A first-class faked jade can fool even the experts. There are many fake-archaic jades faked by the Qinglong imperial jade shops, some are so good they even fooled the Emperor Qinglong. What did that tell you.

Now please use common sense, why would the fakers used excellent jade materials, spend lots of time in creating convincible weathering or stain and then sell such fakes at a loss?

Do you want to really see some fakes, now they are a dime a dozen on eBay. Now those are really fakes.

B

Dear Bill

You said:

"There are many fake-archaic jades faked by the Qinglong imperial jade shops, some are so good they even fooled the Emperor Qinglong. What did that tell you."

Your statement is completely insane. The perfect gentleman with 10 accomplishments was supervising and examined his own workshops, how could his 4-5 jade artisans fooled him? All jades works are designed by Qianlong himself! how can he fooled himself? alcimer?

The workshop that fooled him was in Guangzhou or Suzhou I forgot, that shop produced copies of Han jades for generation by using altered nephrite. I read from the book CHINESE JADE: POWER AND DELICACY IN A MAJESTIC ART - SKU:CHJADE. (see pic)
--------------------------
Watch the movie links below, There is English subtitle for the part 1 to 3, others 4-6 they forgot to make English subtitle. You will see how hard jades were harvested in Ancient time, only 3 months a year can be harvested and took 3-5 yrs to deliver from Xingjian to Beijing. You may be more educated.


Chinese Imperial Palace(Jade)

1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSzqkiiKTbA

2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gl_qFZHS1Y

3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrWOO3w_JQ

4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZdALt-fKmQ&feature=related

5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmIJO1dSKf8&feature=related

6.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRT6Guc1dwU&feature=related
-------------------------
Bill, pls do not make any mistake in public forum, I have no time to read and correct your long statement.

Have fun.
Anita Mui / totally skeptic

Using a title like "Anita is always right" truly exuberates your arrogance and idiocracy, may be it is time for you to reveal your true self so all the forum members will know the real "jade expert" you are and whom they should know and kowtow to?

B

P.S. Using Youtube as your jade references?

Dear Bill

This is a cyber world, you can be anybody you want. And this is not facebook.com, there is no rules saying "Use you real identity to enter this forum, then copy us your ID card"..nobody will be dumb enough to expose their identity and real profile for public to view...pls trust no one!

If your statement is right, it would be ok. But when your statement is wrong, it will be huanting you til this website is out of business that would take life time, I hope.

Yes, 2nd main source of my knowledge are from youtube, because I have no time and money to buy expensive books. But you can turn youtube on and link to your TV in the kitchen, bath room, bed room, any rooms in the house, watch them listen to them until it get into your head.

You can find free China Cultural VDO on Youtube, for example:-

-excavation of Zhou Tomb, warring states tombs
-excavation of Ban po
-excavation of Neolithic in north west China
-excavation of Hongshan, Nuihelieng
-excavation of Mawangdui,
-excavation of Lianzhu site,
-excavation of Hemudu,
-excavation of The first Emperor's tomb
-excavation of Tang Dynasty tomb
-Chinese Jade including source of material, tool marks, style of the period, museum sample..
-Warring states bronzes
-Every art kept at Forbidden City
-Taste of Qinglong
-European influance on Chinese art
-Chinese Buddism
-Chinese mummies
-Chinese ceramic
-Chinese archaic jade and bronze
-National Palace Museum Taipei
-Chinese invention
-National Geographic
-Barakat Gallery, Tang Ceramic
-Translucent world, Chinese jade from the forbidden city

...much much more to see.

Most of them are in Chinese, you can understand Putonghau right? Buying this kind of DVD is too expansive, just use some software to steal VDO from youtube, then connect each file to be 2-3 hours movie. It is better idea to educate yourself.

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. Tomorrow Mike and Me will go to 3rd Asia International Arts & Antique fair, Hong Kong. There are private collectors booths provided for this year, too.

CORRECTION:-

"The perfect gentleman with 10 accomplishments" will be amended to:-

Shi Quan Lao Ren (the Old Man of Ten Perfect Accomplishments).

Have fun
Anita Mui

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