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As a self taught 'expert' in Chinese glaze identification this double gourd vase is giving me a bit of a headache to say the least.

It exhibits several characteristics from the mid 17th Century but I am concerned about the base which is slightly concave...

It's 16cm high and lightly potted.

Could anyone shed any light on it to help me keep my sanity :-)

Thanks Gary

Gary, it looks Japanese to me, perhaps Taisho Period (1912-25) and maybe from a Kutani area kiln. Best regards, Bill H.

Thanks for your help Bill.

It's possible I suppose that it could well be Japanese as I'm unfamiliar with their 20th Century glaze structures...

This tea bowl seems to exhibit the same glaze and therefore could this be a Japanese piece from the same period I wonder?

I would welcome your opinion Bill and would love to hear from others out there with any further suggestions!

Regards Gary.

My judgment on the vase was influenced by painting style as much as anything. On much the same basis, I'd guess the cup to be Chinese, perhaps mid-20th century or later. This style of peach doesn't seem to me to be very consistent with the kind of traditional Chinese painting style that prevailed until well into the 20th century. At the same time, it is my sense of the subject that Japanese porcelain makers didn't use the peach as a standard pattern element to the extent that the Chinese did. Best regards, Bill H.

Hi Bill.

Thanks again for your input.

It's curious how we all depict things differently isn't it Bill? I would think the pattern on the cup is of a stylised dragon not a peach although I can see exactly where you're coming from...

For around 8 years now I have been studying Chinese glaze content as an aid to dating and so far I've been right more than I've been wrong but this pair are so interesting to me because of the exactness of both the cobalt, the glaze and the body!

They both have to be from the same period and the same country.

So, on that basis could it be that the vase is Chinese? or is the cup Japanese?

Now, I know the cup is Chinese mainly because of the foot rim. I also know, like you that the pattern is also highly likely to be Chinese...

An eminent UK dealer of many, many years recently put this vase as Chinese around the 1960's? He worked in China around this time and claims to be familiar with Minyao wares of this period.

Judging by the base I would tend that way myself unless someone else could prove otherwise.

The gauntlet is down! :-)

Gary.

Peach is at top of branch, upper bulb of gourd.

Glaze standard commercial product.

Decoration look printed by transfer.

Good luck,
Cal

Hi Cal & Gary,

It didn't seep through my synapses the first couple of times around, but the peach actually is a cipher of the Three Friends of Winter, with its outline being formed by stylized bamboo leaves and inner linear shape suggested by pine needles.

Cheers,

Bill H.

Hi Cal.

Thanks for that but I was looking for a source of manufacture for both the vase and cup?

We seem to agree it's Japanese now but the cup still needs confirmation!

Gary.

Hi Gary,

Debating such an issue when we're coming from different bases in our evaluations will only end up with you chewing your apples and I my Florida oranges. Anyway, I'll give this thing one more shot and run for cover.

Sitting here savoring my satsuma (orange that is), I feel fairly secure on my stylistic grounds, because the Japanese and Chinese did and still do their ceramics arts differently for the most part. When emulation is involved, the Japanese tend to do much better than the Chinese. In the modern era, style also often is a greater difference than the frequently homogenized and otherwise easily reproduced glazes used (check out Makuzu Kozan's work of you don't believe me).

Importantly, the way the Chinese did things began to change drastically after 1911, with the examination system gone and other cultural stabilizers beginning to collapse in the artistic arena. This curve away from tradition then took a noticeable turn downward after 1949, when the school of Social Realism took root. It was still the norm in the 1960's, so I'm surprised your eminent UK dealer neither noticed the absence of the required numbered factory mark on the bottom of your vase nor that the concave unglazed bottom of the piece looks to be more in keeping with Banko and some other soft-past potters of Japan than it is with the typically high-fired, glazed-base porcelains of China.

In any event, while China was turning a lot of things upside down and shaking them, the Japanese pretty well kept a finger on the pulse of their centuries-old traditions. So by my way of thinking, if this vase of yours is Chinese and not Japanese, then it probably was made in Taiwan, which was an extension of Japanese territory from the end of the 19th century until 1945 (and still where you find the best sushi this side of Yokohama).

Here's one of my treasures to illustrate a point. I bet if you showed this to most dealers without disclosing the marks, they'd automatically say it's Chinese. Nope, that's a Qianlong mark on the cup but a Zoshuntei Sampo, the real maker's mark on the saucer. This was made in Japan circa the late 19th century to compete with Chinese exports to the European and American markets.

Now I'm outta here.

Cheers,

Bill H.

Thanks Bill for your pearls of wisdom!

I did notice the lack of factory marks which as you say points it away from China and I also was surprised by a seasoned dealers remarks about it but who am I to argue? :-)

I recognised your cup and saucer instantly as Japanese, that was an easy one for me but you didn't say anything about mine :-( ... If it's Japanese it would fit perfectly with my research!!

Anyway, thanks again for all your efforts on this and enjoy your Florida sunshine...Lucky sod! :-)

Gary.

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