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i have submitted one of my stone horses.
i really like the fact that the horse is different from one side to the other. i had heard that this feature was a way to spark conversation, as the viewer is invited to see the other side. the tool marks that i see appear to be from hand tools.

Dear John

It's 20th century modern work, made from altered stone.

I have a link from factory in Shanghai making jade horse, Liangzhu jade, Hongshan jade from altered stones posted on alibaba.com with that (your) horses produced in various kind of stone in one style, but I try to search from alibaba.com, that factory was no longer there.

It may not be true jade (nephrite), you may perform scratch test. I suspect it is a soapstone.

Have fun
Anita
translucentworld.com

The similar style is on auction at Christie's, but the stone is better...see the link.

URL Title :20th century horse / Christie\'s

Dear John

Quote from you:-

"the tool marks that i see appear to be from hand tools."
-------------------------------

Pls explain.

Have fun
Anita

This style of horse carving is typical of 18th century. However it was artificially aged to look like buried jade . That is a sign of forgery. The other factor is that 18th century jade are not usually carved out of jade pebbles of this low quality. It is usually carved out of a fairly even toned piece of nephrite may be with a little mottling. The jade pebble used to carve this piece appears to be half bone jade and half green jade. The only period that this is popular was in the late 19th century or recently. However the piece has also been soaked in brown dye from the brown colored lines on the hair. Always avoid artificially dyed pieces. The lines around the eye is carved too deep. This piece isn't old unfortunately. Old antique jades are not common unlike porcelain as they were hard to produce in the past with the old tools, that is why they are not easy to find.

Anita,
a did a scratch test with a swiss army knife blade, no problem. the traslucency of the light jade seems good, not too milky. The stone does not seem to be altered, as much as chosen to create a specific effect. The light side as yin or softer and female, versus the darker side as the yang male side. if i had been the artist i would have loved to create the effect of a chestnut colored horse. i looked at the Christie's horse and while the stone is a more pure form of jade, the horses mane is not raised' but instead recessed into the figure.
i argue for no specific dating, as that is unimportant to me, but i do argue for the talent of the craftsman who carved the jade.
Lee,
I checked for staining and found that most of any darker shadings were actually part of the stone. I tried isopopral alchohol on a soft cloth
and it came out clean.
i have enclosed more pictures.
i appreciate greatly the time and knowledge that it takes to contribute to this forum. my expertise is more in chinese painting than in ceramics or stones.

Made of celadon nephrite jade. Will be good to have better pictures for those carving lines appear on the top of the horse. Do not like the "crack line" at its right rear, possibly created artificially. Agree with Lee that the quality of the nephrite is not good enough for this piece to be "old", not as good as the one shown in the Christie's site.

It is hard to examine the carving lines of a jade carving even with high resolution pictures.

B

I am much in agreement with Lee: classic 18th century style, so-so quality celadon jade, later (after the craving) artificially dyed. It is a questionable piece, but the craving is very good, and I don't see modern taste in this piece. Old or no, in my humble opinion this is a better carving comparing to Christie's example.

Hi John,
Did you do the hardness test on the light or dark side, and what was the result?
Ernest

Dear John

Why this horse have to be buried? Why it has "sign of age from the burial environment"?

The fact is, the factory had no idea of the age of this form of jade art where the style of the period is from. So the factory will make it look "so old" first..because it can catch the eyes of unaware collectors.

The tool mark is too clean in that part but it doesn't mean that it is authentic. The factory can polished them off as well as blasted them with quartz sand, and then whole piece look melted down to have "sign of age". That area you showed is clean but it is not fit well with the whole work of this jade horse, it is a trick to make it look "ancient made", but ancient made will not look that clean. Tool marks is too complicated, you have to compare with museum samples, and the region where those jade was made. However, experts were tricked all the time.

If 18th century jade buried under the ground, it will not look like that.

Pls kindly take pictures of the red arrow I marked below.

Have fun
Anita

Thank you very much Bill, kk, Ernest, and especially Anita,
Anita I finally made it to your website...it is
wonderful.
Bill the "crack" is an inclusion[see pic]
Ernest the darkest material is softer than the lighter, the light material won't scratch, the darker material will.
Anita I looked into the deeper crevices looking
for tool marks that weren't polished out[see pic]
also I will photograph in detail the areas that
you pointed out, but it will take me a few days to get them done. I did download an interesting
article from Journal of Archaeological Science
entitled "The identification of carving techniques on Chinese jade" $5.95 on Amazon.
it illustrated with various technical tests the
difference in some jade carving techniques.
The transfer of knowledge is the path to immortality.
John R

Anita,
I took the closeups that you asked for.
Thank you for looking

#8 shows some remnants of dye stuff.
Ernest

Dear John

Thank you for your valuable time.

1. tool marks are modern.
2. cracks were polished.
3. tool marks are modern, pits were polished smooth.
4-8. tool marks are modern.
--------------
Those corrosive parts, cracks were in the original stone before making a jade horse. The ancient grow (tea color) from burial environment was from color agent, and your horse was made of nephrite.

Sorry, in my opinion this piece is modern.

Have fun
Anita

More modern tooling.

Anita,
Thank you the time and work that you employed in pursuit of my question. I appreciate the samples
that you sent.
Do not be sorry. I never claimed an age for the horse, only an appreciation of the craftmanship and vision of the artist who carved it. whether
with power tools or hand tools the work stands on its own as a fine representation of a horse at rest, one side chestnut colored, and the other
light with patches of russet. I did find more
information on this style of jade work...

Quote from: Jade A study In Chinese Archaeology & Religion, Berthold Laufer, 1912,1974.
“One of the peculiar charms of these ornaments is that their two sides often present
Different views. …only one face is directed towards the looker-on whose curiosity is naturally aroused to
Know what is carved on the opposite face, and there he often meets with something quite unexpected…
Thus a girdle ornament may attract a person’s attention to the wearer and lead to the making of acquaintances. The esthetic enjoyment evinced by the Chinese over the sight of this carving is enhanced
By a layer of brown agate-like color strewn only over the opposite side, while the front is of a pure grey white tinge. Figure 2, … is the carving of an elephant…in this case too, a color surprise is brought in; the surface in front is gray in color framed by brown tinges, while the other side is entirely imbued with a deep red brown tinge. …It is difficult to fix a date for these carvings with any certainty; but the Chinese range them in the K’ien-Lung period (1736-1795) They are certainly not modern for two reasons; first , being made from a jade material no longer available, and second, being of a superior workmanship not attained
By any article of the present time.”

Perhaps this is the style that the modern jade artist was trying to copy.

As to the process of dyeing or altering jade, i
am not quite sure that i understand the process.
Apparently the jade must first be subjected to
a bath in acid, and then immersed in a dye for the color to absorb. wouldn't this process have
dissolved the exposed metallic parts that are
exposed on the surface, and why wouldn't the dye affect the entire jade?

Tests can now be made to prove whether jade has been altered. The Thermo Electron Corporation in Madison WI ( the state in which I live) has developed a test that will prove as fact treated jade vs. untreated jade.
i will let you know about the results.

in the next few months i will submit a few more
jades for review(the next question will be on
calcification on jade)

This forum is an extremely important tool in the advancement of the world’s understanding of the truth and purity of Chinese art. We should be careful before we declare as fact, that which is more an opinion.

Bonjour Ms. Mui,

You appear to misspell our name on purpose (you spelled it correctly the first time – ORIENTAL TREASURES). We believe you did the exact same thing to others on this Forum when they disagreed with your views. That itself speaks volume of your pettiness and character.
You said “It's not my place to talk about your jade, the opinion is yours alone.” If that’s the case why did you post “then compare to your so-called ancient jade in your collection” in the first instance? Could it be because you are now unable to answer our questions?
Believe you me, we know our Chinese history. To add on to KK’s Chinese term for his “lucky wheel” as “chu da ming”. For those who don’t speak Chinese, the phrase simply means “crude, big Ming”. The “big” does not mean large physical size, rather it implies the comparative proportions. This is especially true for later Ming pieces. In the last third or quarter of Ming rule, the country was in bad shape. Floods and famines took millions of lives. Law and order was breaking down and people would risk their lives just for a full belly by stating “better to die with a full stomach for once”.
Besides the form of KK’s “lucky wheel”, many other forms with allusion to longevity, prosperity, having plenty of off springs, etc. are especially common during later Ming. These were also found on other arts such as paintings, ceramics, lacquer, etc. It was as if that the then society needed these “blessed amulets” to constantly protect them from evil and misfortunes, and bring them luck.
This, we believe, was a reflection of the psyche of the Ming government and society as a whole as the dynasty slowly rotted away. We always maintain that for really serious jade collectors, it is imperative that they learn about Chinese history, culture and other contemporaneous art forms.
Reference to your eBay belt buckle, can you tell us why you think it is a fake Ming? Is it because it is from eBay? While it is true that there are a lot of fakes on eBay, we are certain there are genuine articles too, albeit far and few in between. We are not trying to find fault with you at every twist and turn, but, the quality of the photo does not permit us to see any modern tool marks, or lack of them too. However, the form, motif, over all “spirit”, etc. do suggest that it could be another of the “crude, big Ming”. Either way, we can not be certain if it is a fake or not without handling it.
We are posting 3 excavated Ming jade. Our 1st photo is that of a Guanyin. Look how crude the carving which is quite disrespectful of the subject matter to say the least. It was found in the tomb of Madam Lok in Putong, Shanghai. The 2nd photo is of an even cruder Guanyin (we think) excavated from the tomb of Ming Mu Rui in Nanking City, Jiangsu Province. The 3rd photo is from San Yau village in Xian. All 3 pieces are dated to late Ming. These are good examples of “chu da ming”. Your eBay belt buckle appears to share many of their traits.
Now, Ms. Mui, if you do not even know classic, quintessential Ming plaques, it begs the question, how knowledgeable are you really? The obvious conclusion is that you are not as knowledgeable as you think you are.
Best,
Oriental Treasures

Oriental Treasures' translation of "da Ming", is imprecise: "For those who don’t speak Chinese, the phrase simply means “crude, big Ming”. The “big” does not mean large physical size, rather it implies the the comparative proportions.

The translation of "da Ming" in this context it is "Great Ming", as in "powerful, Eminent or distinguished". It has been common practice when speaking of a dynasty to prefix it with "Great".
"Big Ming" sounds like the nickname of the local Tong gang leader.

Pls talk about "jade", not me.

Have fun
Anita

P.S. The word "da" in front of Chinese Dynasty means "great". And Da Ming mean "The Great Ming Dynasty".

Bonjour Ms. Mui,

You are right about discussing jade proper only. In fact that's what we try to do all the time.

Re "da Ming", please see our reply to "rogervan".

Oriental Treasures

Bonjour Roger,
Your literal translation of “da Ming” is correct. However, you are wrong in this instance because the phrase “chu da Ming” is used as a derisive term for later Ming jade pieces which are often perfunctorily carved. We are not quite sure when this phrase was first used, but, we suspect it would be during “da Qing”.
Oriental Treasures

I had asked for help on how to identify marks
from hand powered tools as compared to the use of
electric power tools in a post December 27, 2009.
The closest thing to an answer that I received came
from Anita who said tool marks are too complicated,
and what do you mean “hand tools?” I was shown
many pictures of jades that showed modern tool marks,
and frankly what I saw was that the main way to
Identify modern tool is through studying the poor
Craftsmanship and sloppy work. I do not doubt that
A real artist when working with modern power tools
Could create a beautiful piece of jade art that does contain
That feeling of life-breath.
Now after some basic research here you go:

There are 6 methods of carving jade,
1:Drilling
2:Wheel cutting
3:Sawing
4:Flexible string sawing
5:Riffling
6:Point or blade abrasion

There are 6 different abrasives used for carving jade,
1:Quartz
2:Almandine Garnet
3:Corundum
4:Carborundum
5:Diamond

Polishing is done using a combination of carborundum, silt, water
And applied to bamboo wood or leather tools.

Powered tools have been used for thousands of years.
A spinning motion is created in a number of ways,
With a bow and string that when moved back and forth spins the
shaft on which the tool tip has been added., or foot powered
wheels similar to potter’s wheel which then rotated the tool.
Each of these tools leaves a signature in the jade.

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