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Dear All,

I Would like to share these two vases in my family collection that I believe to be true examples of the genre. First is a superb guan ware vase and the second is Jun ware foliate vase of Yuan period.
These vases are old collection of my family.
Here images of the vases with some illustrations, and a link for a similar proportion southern song mallet vase made in Longquan.

Regard,
Rudi Liem







Link :Song Longquan vase with similar proportion

Here detail images for guan vase

Hi Liem
Thank you for sharing us. Unfortunately there's no image of base. However, based on images without base, I have an impression both pieces in your family collection look beautiful. Guan ware are rare. As far as I can think of, not many of them came to market and for the best Song pieces (where I hope your guan vase belong to be) only available in grand museums collection. Although I've never seen one in this form, but this is indeed a typical of Southern Song mallet vase. The glaze and clay body seem to me consistent to the period.
Can you show us the base ?

Kind Regard, Alf.

Liem, What is the size and real color for your guan vase ? Any picture of its foot ? and also for your jun vase ?

Teller

Dear Alf and Teller

Thank you very much for taking a look to the images and sharing your opinions. As you said, mallet vase with phoenix handle is indeed a Southern Song shape and known in Japan as 'kinuta' where they have been appreciated since the Kamakura period. For the best Southern Song guan ware, there are vases that unique in shape. If I am not wrong, first is a meiping in British Museum and second is a large jar in Mokichi Okada Association (MOA)Museum of Art, Japan.

As for color, the glaze is thick bluish gray green and soft to the touch.
Here images of the base as requested.

Regards,
Rudi Liem.

Thank you for additional images. The foots of both vases look OK to me. I continue to maintain my opinion that the vases in your family collection are beautiful and very convincing. It is worth to take the pieces to experts for first-hand inspection. Find the RIGHT and the REAL experts/museum curators/specialists who have handled many guan ware pieces and familiar with recent kiln site finds in Hangzhou.

Good Luck, Alf.

This mallet vase which has been in Rudi's "old family collection" is the same one which belonged to Armando back in 2007.

You remember Armando from Indonesia...right?
http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=28520

Whoa, what a coincidence, Rudi is from Indonesia too!

And isn't it a miracle that the vase no longer features the greenish tint to make it look like the ones in the photos from the books?

Er...well almost, the photos titled "Glaze Texture Comparison" still show the tint.

In fact, as shown in the graphic below, the details of the crackled glaze of Rudi's vase perfectly match Armando's vase.

Warning to readers, don't even think about getting suckered into believing these are anything but modern Indonesian copies.

Caviat emptor!
Gman

Dear Gman,

Gman : Thank you for informing me. I do not know if it has been posted by Armando. Of course the vase posted by Armando is match with this because the same vase....:). This is my family collection and has been in my family collection for many generations, brought by my ancestor from mainland China when he moved from there to Jakarta in 19 century. So imposible to be modern. I posted the vase here not to authenticate, but sharing. I have posted good photographs of this vase complete with illustration, so if you expert in southern song guan ware you can judge your self of course with clear argument. It is much better than you say to people this is modern copy without argument. It is useless, because most people/contributors in this forum are not novice. They can judge by themselves.

By the way : Why are you angry .....?:)
Do you think I am trying to decieve someone here ? If the vase is modern, it still modern even I and you say authentic and if the vase authentic, it is still authentic even I and you say modern, so what the benefit for me ? Since this vase is an old collection of my family, I am not trying to sell this vase to you. I read your given link and I am suprised that you also shown the same expression at Armando post.

May I aks you please : This is a forum to discuss asian art. Many pieces posted in this forum were modern. Are you always angry with those people who posted modern pieces in this forum ?

Anyway, thank you for your comment.....highly appreciated.

Regard,
Rudi Liem.

Dear Rudi,
Yes, I do believe you are using this forum under dubious pretences now, just as you were back when this vase (and others) were first posted under the name Armando.

It is quite obvious that the two persons who are supporting your vase in this thread are likely the same person since they share the same IP address in Brisbane, Australia....likely the user Qnoy logging in under two different emails.(Qnoy also originally posted from Indonesia)

I asure you that I still have a rather extensive list of all of the Indonesian players, and now there will be several more names, IP addy's, and email addies to add to the Indonesian/Australian ceramic club database.

You say the vase was in your family collection, Armando said it was in his collection, and back then it had a green coating on it to make it look like the ones in the books, you are using some of the photos with the green coating, and yet most of your photos show that the vase no longer has the green tint.

I have seen enough to make me believe you are probably Armando, and you think coming here and posting photos of alledged museum pieces (again) along with your photos of your reproduction will somehow establish its authenticity by your claims that it has been in your family, and by your expert opinion, blah, blah.

It seems clear to me that your comments now, and before would suggest not only the opposite, but that you are involved in a fraudulent endeavor.

As for me being "angry"?
Hahahaha, far from it, I am actually happy to finally have you come here in this manner, along with Qnoy (Alf & Teller) to prove the allegations from the earlier thread were spot-on!

I think we can close the book on anything posted by your Indonesian ceramic club.

You should probably let this thread die quietly at this point, before you only dig your hole deeper, because every post, and every word you guys have ever posted here in this forum, are still here in the archives.

Cheers!
Gman

Sometimes It is funny and childish seeing somebody angry.

Liem :
Southern Song guan ware body may be gray, dark gray and dark brown due to iron-rich containing in the clay. Guan ware with gray body is rarer than dark body. Your guan vase looks has dark gray body. I have some thought your guan vase probably unique in shape. Unique piece is more difficult to authenticate since there’s nothing to compare. That why I suggest you to find the RIGHT and the REAL experts who have handled many Song guan ware pieces and familiar to recent kiln site finds in Hangzhou. If it is judged by the wrong person, it will turn to be modern. One wrong person has proven that.

Gman :
I feel you are not angry with liem but with me after you read my positive opinion to Liem’s vase. In this forum we must concern to the piece not to person. I always concern to the piece in giving my opinions. regardless who the owners/posters, I will say their pieces are convincing if it is very convincing and I will say modern if it is modern.
Concerning Liem’s guan vase, I am not trying to stand up for him. Although I am jealous with his collection, I must be honest in giving my opinions. His guan vase is very convincing to me. I will not change my opinion and continue to say that his guan vase is BEAUTIFUL and VERY CONVINCING. Based on images provided, it has all materials and aesthetic beauty of southern song guan ware piece that never be achieved again in later periods. I believe Indonesian potters can not produce pieces as beautiful as Liem’s vase. Their products are easily to recognize even if by the novices. To avoid miss leading information, probably you must do a deep research regarding ceramics production in Indonesia before you make any statement in open forum, especially when you are trying to force people in order to believe in your opinion. You can re-take a look to Liem’s vase and let your heart say honestly. Instead of you spend your time to research historical post,it would be much better if you focus to the piece using your expertise. Focus to the piece and discuss it scholarly will add our knowledge.

I remember, there is person who has Fujian crackle ware in his collection and then he siad he had first hand experience in Song guan ware. Although Fujian crackles wares have been made since Yuan period, they are totally different compared with Song/yuan guan/ge wares. They are different in every aspect. There are many types of crackles ware. Hangzhou, Longquan, Jingdezhen, fujian province and Guandong made them. Not to mention several private kilns during Ming and Qing Dynasty.

Hope this will reduce your angry with me…….

Kind regards, Alf.

Dear Alf and Gman

Alf : You look have a deep knowledge on crackle wares. I am happy to get your opinions and discuss the pieces with you. From my deep research, I believe the vase is a true example of the genre and another vase of similar shape will be found. Vase of this delicate potting, revealing dark gray body under thick and soft bluish gray green, with prominent dark stained crackles (reminiscent of the fissures in jade) ara characteristics of guan ware of the southern song dynasty. As seen on the above images, the glaze guan mallet vase in my collection is exactly match to a southern song guan ware octogonal bottle in MOCO and a southern song guan ware bird feeder in Cleveland Museum. Close examination to the glaze, it shows a jade-like appearance. It indicates that the vase was fired in better reduction firing at an ideal temperature (if firing temperature is too high, transparency of the glaze will increase and jade-like appearance is lost).

Gman : If you want to kindly share your opinion to the piece, please using my photographs above. Do not use photographs from Armando's post. Photos in Armando post are in low quality because they were taken using camera handphone with low megapixel.So you see nothing from those photos. Please support your opinion with reasonable arguments.

Regards,
Rudi Liem.

Dear Rudi,

Why in the world would I refrain from judging the vase based on the photos posted of the same vase by Armando?

You are a real joker to ignore what I have posted to ask me to re-think my opinion based on the new photos, rather than the old one's which clearly show a green stain.

Are you somehow implying that it is not a big deal that the vase was stained green then, and it is not stained green now?

I think I have made my points quite clearly.

The total lack of positive comments regarding the authenticity of the vase by those forum experts who are far more qualified than myself speaks volumes.

Gman

After spending sometime analyzing the bases of the two vases, I am afraid that Gman is correct. They are from the same piece.

I am not sure of the ageing of this vase. I am not here to dispute whether they are of the period or not. But one thing that I am very sure is that the bases are identical in all respect. No two pieces will have an identical fault line, that is one thing for sure.

Ark

First of all, I do not know the poster. Since this is a forum for discussion I just concern and comment based on images of the piece.

Envious comments for a piece supposed to be rare of the best is normal. I ignore it. Not all people happy seeing someone has rare object. I don't like with this type of person. I suggest you don't be disturbed by envious people like this. Keep your research on this vase.

Yes I know they are the same vase as you said, but the quality of photographs totally different. Judging from the images, history of the vase in your family and due to my best knowledge, I have no reason to say this is a modern piece. The vase looks great, at least in my eyes. It really needs to be handled by the right authorities. Your guan glaze has some resemblance to jiaotanxia guan ware of the Song dynasty and has chance to be of the period.

Teller.

Ark : Thank you for taking a look the the images. As I said in my previous post, the vase in Armando post and in my post here is the same piece, old collection of my family (although Gman do not believe it is my family collection, I will keep saying it, because indeed it belongs to my family collection and owned legally).
Armando came to me and I shown him the vase. I known he took photo with his camera handphone, but I do not know if he posted the photos in this forum and said as his mine. Because the vase is mine, he has no good photographs.

Gman : Sorry, I have no time to discuss with you. Useless !!! It seems to me you are in the wrong place. If you want to be a dectective, you must go to police office, do not come here in asian art forum :) While people here busy discussing on the posted pieces to add the knowledge, you are only busy seeing IP :). I really do not understand your mindset. You have my good photographs in your screen, so you can judge it for your self, not for me. GBU.

Regards,
Rudi Liem.

Dear Teller,

Teller : Thank you for your suggestion. Don't worry, trader's comments like Gman do not disturb me at all. I know what the vase is. I have researched it for many years and will continue to research as your suggestion.

Gman : If better quality photos available, why you have to use low quality of old photos ? Using your logical sequence of thoughts. Color of the vase in Armando post is exactly match to the vase with in my post because indeed a the same vase, BLUSIH GRAY GLAZE WITH SUBTLE GREENISH TINGE. I do not paint the vase to change its color or to remove its greenish tinge (do you think I am a painter and the vase as a canvas ?):)
If you see photographs of the vase in different color, is only due to photographic problem and also due to more anorthite crystals than bubbles in the southern song guan glaze.

I really don't understand your point. Since the beginning, you only said the vase match to armando post and greenish tinge....greenish tinge. Remember, given opinions at armando's post are not criteria to say the vase as moden piece, because comment were given based on very low quality photographs (you almost see nothing from armando's photos).

Guan ware come with many glaze colors from warner tones being produced by neutral or slightly oxidized firing to cooler bluish tones (including bluish gray with subtle geenish tinge) being formed in reduction firing at slightly lower temperature. So when you said greenish tinge and greenish tinge, I really don't understand what you mean. From the three your posts, you have no substantive points regarding guan ware.You only said I am real joker ...:)

By the way, why did you ask me to stop this thread ? Isn't your intention to ruin my reputation and give negative sentiment to the pieces ? But you wrong. I am not trader. I am pure a collector who collect pieces from my family collection and research them one by one. Different with you. I know you are an antique trader, and it is your habit to ruin people and their pieces, so in the next time you hope that you can buy them cheaply. I can recognize it because you have no scholarly interest to the subject but more happy to attack me personally.

Here I give you an additional image to make you more confuse...:)

Dear Rudi et al,
You yourself are trashing your own credibility by continuing to attempt to downplay the green stain as seen in the photos posted of the same vase by Armando, aka Armanda, aka Armand.

There is no possible explanation you can make that will explain away that green stain, least of all your extremely lame excuse that Armando took his photos with a cell phone camera.

His photos don't look like any cell phone photos I'm familiar with, and they are certainly clear enough to see the truth!

I am not out to ruin your reputation, in this forum as far as I can tell, under the user name "Rudi Liem" you have no reputation beyond this thread.

However, your alledged Song dynasty Guan Ware Mallet vase does have a reputation in this forum, and the general concensus of forum experts during its Armando/green stain period was that it was not authentic.

Furthermore, I think that anyone who was unsure about the authenticity of the vase back then will be sure now. First it was green,...and now it is clean....:)

Any further assessments of the other features of the vase are really quite unnecessary....:)

BTW, thanks for inadvertantly showing us what the vase really looks like....:)

FYI, I have been out of the antique business for almost twenty years, and I only speak-out for common sense. If any forum experts agree with your claims they will certainly post their opinions, regardless of what I say.

However, your comparisons and arguments on behalf of this vase are pretty entertaining, so by all means continue to attempt to prove your allegations of authenticity in any possible way that you can, and we will see if anyone besides your Indonesian/Australian ceramic club members will step forward and agree with you....:)

As far as me asking you to let this thread die quietly, let me re-phrase that for you:
If you let go of the cookie, you will be able to pull your hand out of the cookie jar....:)

Cheers!
Gman

Gman : I do not need your explaination because from the quality of your comments, you have serious problem on guan ware. So for you, bad quality photos or goods quality photos are the same and you will have not further assessments of the other features.

From the beginning , there is a big question in my head, why you are so angry with me ? Your anger is really unusually over. But now I got the answer. Because you think I am Armando.

I asked armando something about you. He told me that three years ago you cantacted him and tried to buy the vase for only USD 200, but he rejected you. He did not believe if the vase is modern as you said. You angry with him by saying armando is stupid. When armando posted his photos in this forum, you called other member (off the forum) to give comment on such poor quality photos and attack the poster personally. How clever you are.......:)
FYI : Armando will never sell the vase to you because it is mine and belong to my family collection for generation to generations.

As for Armando photos, you are totally wrong again.I know for sure that they were taken by his camera handphone because I was there when he took the photographs. You have too many speculative statements in your posts. Seemingly, you want to attack me enthusiastically.....:)

Using several names in this forum is not my habit, but your habits. Somebody has recognized several your names in this forum. Please check to the given link below :
http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=27766

I am so sorry to hear your antique business was being bankrupt. There is always and only one possible thing that make an antique business being bankrupt : DISHONEST, nothing else. You ran your business DISHONESTLY until finally your clients abondan you one by one.

Now I know why you enthusiastically attack me personally. Now, whatever you will say/write, it is NONSENSE for me.

PS : if you want to be respected by others, you have to be honest and do not be envious. I do not know, what kind of person I am discussing with, it must be stopped because I have known the answer why you are very angry.

With Extremely Best Regards,
Rudi Liem.

URL Title :Various possible names of Gman in this forum

Dear Moderator,
I apologize to you for the strength of my previous post which you saw necessary to censor.

With your permission I would like to address the inaccuracies of "Rudi's" allegations.

Quote Rudi:
"Gman : I do not need your explaination because from the quality of your comments, you have serious problem on guan ware. So for you, bad quality photos or goods quality photos are the same and you will have not further assessments of the other features."

Dear Rudi, aka Armando, aka Armanda, aka Soehandi et al,
Your photos under the name Armando were just as clear as your photos posted under the name Rudi.

The only difference, and it is the difference which tells the story, is that some photos feature a distinct green tint, a green tint which is also visible in your photo marked "Glaze Texture Comparison". While the remainder of your photos posted under the name "Rudi", do not show the green tint.

Where did it go?

******************

Quote Rudi:
"From the beginning , there is a big question in my head, why you are so angry with me ? Your anger is really unusually over. But now I got the answer. Because you think I am Armando."

Why would it make me "angry" that you have to post your collection under various user names?

It may seem normal to you, but others who may not have been here back then deserve to know when the same pieces are posted by various users claiming ownership. Taking into account evasive practices like posting under multiple names is part of the process of determining authenticity.

Kind of like when you see someone post a photo of an object with the eBay logo in the lower right corner, that logo considerably discounts the possibility of the object being authentic, because it is standard practice on eBay to misguide the public with vague descriptions, and outright lies.
*****************

Since we are on the subject of outright lies...

Quote Rudi:
"I asked armando something about you. He told me that three years ago you cantacted him and tried to buy the vase for only USD 200, but he rejected you. He did not believe if the vase is modern as you said. You angry with him by saying armando is stupid. When armando posted his photos in this forum, you called other member (off the forum) to give comment on such poor quality photos and attack the poster personally. How clever you are.......:)"

You know Rudi, up to the point where you have accused me of something that you know I did not do, my comments have been based on the photos which you have posted showing the differences between the original photos with the green stain, and the new and improved version without the stain.
Those photos lead me to believe that the stain must have been removed, and if it was removed the question must be asked, why was it there in the original photos?

However, just as you know the true answer to that question, I know the truth is that I have never contacted Armando, Armanda, Armand, or you regarding this vase, or the multiple user name issue, on any occassion.
********************

Quote Rudi:
"As for Armando photos, you are totally wrong again.I know for sure that they were taken by his camera handphone because I was there when he took the photographs. You have too many speculative statements in your posts. Seemingly, you want to attack me enthusiastically.....:)"

I am not sure why you keep going back to the quality of the photos posted under the name "Armando", the photos are perfectly clear, and they show as much detail as the photos posted under the name "Rudi".
Instead of simply addressing the question of why there was a green stain on the same vase in the Armando photos, you keep saying the photos are of low quality, and that I am angry, etc, etc, yet the stain is quite visible, and it is not an artifact of the photo.(see the photo posted by "Rudi" under the title "Glaze Texture Comparison" above)
I am not angry, nor am I out to get you.
Why are you being so evasive about the stain, and resorting to fabricating the story that I tried to purchase the vase from Armando?
*****************

Quote Rudi:
"Using several names in this forum is not my habit, but your habits. Somebody has recognized several your names in this forum. Please check to the given link below :
http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=27766"

I fail to see how Bill's rhetorical question proves anything whatsoever, he is intelligent enough to know how to use an IP Address utility, and he knows full well that Kevin, Aimee and myself live in completely different regions of the country, not to mention that none of us were posting from the same cities, email addy's or IP addy's, nor were we posting under various user names.
However, all of our posts are here in the AAF archives there to be inspected by the members.
*************
Quote Rudi:
"I am so sorry to hear your antique business was being bankrupt. There is always and only one possible thing that make an antique business being bankrupt : DISHONEST, nothing else. You ran your business DISHONESTLY until finally your clients abondan you one by one."

Actually, it was not my business, but I was with the company from the start, and it was one of the largest West Coast importers of antiques (33,000 SF showroom), lighting and architectural fixtures, and reproduction furniture and decorative items from around the world for over twenty years.
When the owner retired and sold the business, he went out on top, as did all of his employees.
*******************

Now as for the vase first posted by "Armando" with the green stain, and then posted by "Rudi" without the green stain, I defer any further discussions regarding its authenticity to the ceramic experts of this forum.
I am sure if any of them believe it is authentic, they will post their opinions.

If none of them post an affirmative opinion, it will not be because of anything I have written in this thread, but the merits of the vase itself.

Gman

Comparison Similar case in shape between guan Cong vase in National Palace Museum and guan mallet vase in my family collection.

Superb Southern Song Guan Ware Mallet Vase with Phoenix Handles.

Vase of this delicate potting, revealing dark body under thick and soft bluish ash-gray glaze with subtle greenish tinge and prominent dark stained crackles are characteristic of both guan ware and ge ware of the Southern Song Dynasty. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish guan ware from ge ware. However, according to a conference organized by Shanghai Museum October 1992, it was established that ge is only collector’s term which do not necessarily refer to the production of a specific kiln, but to a type of guan ware of particular color with a certain kind of crackles. Most guan wares are in small size. This present mallet vase is exceptional for its large size and beautiful crackled glaze, reminiscent of the fissures in jade, the most priced of all natural material.

The form is typical of mallet vase made during the Southern Song Dynasty. There are two variants of this type of vase, one with dragon-fish (yulong) handles and another with phoenix handles like this present vase. According to Rose Kerr in Song Dynasty Ceramics”, London 2004 pl.95, p.94, mallet vase of this form was made after an ancient bronze, however another expert mentioned that the shape was derived from western Asian glass ware. The quality of the glaze is superb and considered comparable to several so-called ge wares vases and censers in Palace Museum Beijing. The glaze also match compared with a Song guan ware octogonal bottle in Museum of Oriental Ceramics Osaka (MOCO), and a Song guan ware bird feeder in Cleveland Museum. This similarity is understandable since both guan ware and ge ware could have been issued simultaniously from the same kiln. Network of crackling of this mallet vase has been picked out with a selective staining and this human touch is the final move that turns the vase into a masterpiece.

PS : Since I am not a professional photographer, color of the mallet vase may different on the images due to photographic problem.

Regards,
Rudi Liem.

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