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Subject:Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: Rob Thu, Nov 30, 2017 IP: 120.29.50.244

I would appreciate any assistance. I have inherited a collection of Chinese ceramics and assorted items in bamboo, cinnabar and bronze that my father purchased in an Estate auction in the 1950’s. My father told the story that the previous owner had been a missionary in China in the early 1900’s. I have been doing a lot of research and a number of them show some promise though I expect they are copies. To date I have not found anything that is similar to this wine cup. The Rooster is well painted so I was wondering if it had anything to do with the year of the Rooster? The four characters on the side I assume to be a saying? Thanks, Rob







Subject:Re: Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: JLim Fri, Dec 01, 2017



Dear Rob

That is indeed a well painted rooster I think!

This object cannot predate the use of stamped red marks in c. 1870. Also, the design is much more reminiscent of the rooster designs in early Republic era porcelain, which this cup quite possibly is.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: Rob Fri, Dec 01, 2017

Dear J Lim,
Thank you so much for your advice. It’s nice to know that it fits with the story told by my father.
Kind regards,
Rob

Subject:Re: Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: I.Nagy Fri, Dec 01, 2017

Reading of the inscription:
奉雌漢雄 Given from a male to a female (as present)
Bottom mark reads,
乾隆年製  Manufactured in Qianlong Era
I hope an expert will comment on the cup itself.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: Rob Fri, Dec 01, 2017

Dear I Nagy,
Thank you so much for the information on the inscription. It’s wonderful to know what the words say.
Kind regards,
Rob

Subject:Re: Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: JLim Fri, Dec 01, 2017



Dear Rob

One Year Of The Rooster was in 1909/10; so if you are right that this cup was a zodiacal commemoration it might possibly squeeze in as VERY late Qing! However, I've never heard of zodiacal commemoration designs.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: JLim Sat, Dec 02, 2017



Dear Rob

I have just this moment come across an image of a rooster startlingly similar to yours on p83 of Anthony Allen's second book. This rooster is dated to the Tongzhi reign (1861-1875). The similarities to your rooster are striking, with the translucent greyish black of the tail, and the dashes of brown enamel representing the forward feathers.

This is in contrast to the Republican roosters I mentioned earlier, which have much more reddish forward feathers with yellow speckles, and a much more glossy black tail.

I am not sure what this signifies, because I am still convinced that your cup does not have a Tongzhi-era foot; and that the four character stamp mark does not look right for the Tongzhi era. So I would still plump for a Republican date for your rooster, even if the style of painting is older.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: Rob Mon, Dec 04, 2017

Dear J.Lim,

Once again, thank you for your efforts to place more light on the wine cup. It is intriguing and fascinating at the same time. I will try to get a copy of the book. I have been doing a lot of online searching these past months on the various pieces that have come into my possession and it’s becoming very addictive 😀

Kind regards and thanks again,
Rob

Subject:Re: Possible Qing Qianlong wine cup
Posted By: Rob Sun, Dec 03, 2017

Dear J.Lim,

Thanks again for you help on this. It is most appreciated. A friend of mine in Singapore suggested it might be one of a pair used as wedding gifts between the bride and the groom. Lovely thought😀 I am going to post a few more items out of the collection in the coming weeks and would love your expert opinion.

Kind regards,
Rob

Subject:秦雌漢雄 Qin Overload and Han Emperor
Posted By: Super Tue, Dec 12, 2017

The four Chinese characters on the wine cup in your second picture, from right to left are:

秦雌漢雄

秦 (first character) stands for the Qin dynasty (221 - 206 BC)
漢 (third character) stands for the Han dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD)which was the dynasty immediately after the Qin dynasty
雌 (second character) - refers to female and 雄 (fourth character) refers to male; in this case, they referred to sacred birds, female and male.

This originated from:
"遂良曰:「昔秦文公時,有侲子化為雉,雌鳴陳倉,雄鳴南陽。侲子曰:『得雄者王,得雌者霸。』文公遂雄諸侯,始為寶雞祠。漢光武得其雄,起南陽,有四海。陛下本封秦,故雄雌並見,以告明德。」帝悅,曰:「人之立身,不可以無學。遂良所謂多識君子哉!」俄授太子賓客。薛延陀請婚,帝已納其聘,復絕之。遂良曰:「信為萬事本,百姓所歸。故文王許枯骨而不違, ..."

This originally refers to 雉 which is a wild pheasant (Phasianus colchicus)
During the time of 秦文公 (716 BC)it was rumored that
『得雄者王,得雌者霸。
who every caught a female pheasant, he would become the overlord and whoever caught a male pheasant and would become a king.

Therefore this basically describes the Qin Shihuang in the Qin dynasty and the Emperor Gaozu of Han (Chinese: 漢高祖;) in the Han dynasty who overthrown the Qin dynasty and founded the Han dynasty.

Hope this helps.

Super



Subject:Re: 秦雌漢雄 Qin Overload and Han Emperor
Posted By: I.Nagy Wed, Dec 13, 2017

Dear Professor Super,
Thanks for the useful explanation.
A feeling like being back decades ago in a classical
Chinese literature class
(奉 and 秦 the difference is clear、I was particular
about the left to right and the another meaning of漢)
With regards,
I.Nagy



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