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Subject:Chinese porcelain mark translation - advice please
Posted By: Paul Thu, May 17, 2018 IP: 81.152.63.179

Hi All,

I got few more Chinese characters which I was not able to translate for myself..Would be great if someone could assist me with them please :)

Kind regards
Paul



Subject:Re: Chinese porcelain mark translation - advice please
Posted By: Bill H Fri, May 18, 2018

This mark, 五郎大甫 吳祥瑞造, is in the 1882 James Lord Bowes book, "Japanese Marks & Seals" in Literature and the Arts, as on an Arita B&W porcelain dish dated circa 1820 and marked in blue as "Made by Gorota and Shozui together" (Go-ro-ta Narabini Sho-zui sin-zo).

Since you seem to be hesitant to show yours, I'll unabashedly show mine, a noodle cup (soba-choko) that I think is probably 20th century. Also offered, a few links to other stuff with such marks and various interpretations of them. Perhaps we'll get a better take on the mark's meaning right here in the forum.


https://www.rubylane.com/item/1117255-A1493/Japanese-Vintage-Blue-White-Porcelain-Plate

https://classic.liveauctioneers.com/item/20019776_chinese-blue-and-white-bowl

https://classic.liveauctioneers.com/item/10246661_chinese-bluewhite-tea-caddy-petwer-interior

Best Regards,

Bill H.






Subject:Re: Chinese porcelain mark translation - advice please
Posted By: Martin Michels Sat, May 19, 2018

Dear Bill H.

This mark is a nice one to start a discussion with all respect.
To start with 五郎 = Goro, but the mark is 五良 = Goryo.
The next is 大, I've seen also the same marks with 太. so the name could be Goryodai, Goryotai, Goryota? Or Gorodai, Gorotai or Gorota?
The next character here is 甫 = Ho or Fu or Haji(mete), according my online translator (http://www.romajidesu.com/kanji/) meaning: for the first time. Although Lord Bowes mark has a 申 (Shin).
Followed by 呉 (Go = give / do something for), but might also be 吳, but my tool says: No Kanji.
Shozui Zo 祥瑞造 (made by Shozui) seems correct.
So is it possible that even Lord Bowes was confused how to pronounce and translate this mark?
I've added some of the marks I found, I think the 2nd picture has marks from the first half of the 20th century.

Maybe others can contribute to this discussion and reveal what their opinion is.

Regards,
Martin.





Subject:Re: Chinese porcelain mark translation - advice please
Posted By: Bill H Sun, May 20, 2018

Well Martin, I knew from past experience you'd be able to clean up whatever mess I made, and I thank you for it. I'm just ashamed to say, after owning that soba cup with the mark for more than 15 years, I still copied the wrong character for 良 and squinted past the fact that Bowes used 太 in his version of the mark. Not my worst sin, I suppose, when it comes to Japanese.

In the case of 太, it actually shares some functions with 大, but I'm unsure if these apply to Japanese. The character 呉 is one name for Wu in Mandarin Chinese or Ng in Cantonese, and an old provincial name for present-day Jiangsu. The latter makes me wonder if the Japanese picked up Go by way of Cantonese?

In any event, am glad to see I'm not the only source of confusion about this mark and look forward to all comments.

Best regards,

Bill H.



Subject:Re: Chinese porcelain mark translation - advice please
Posted By: Martin Michels Mon, May 21, 2018

Dear Bill,
Thanks for your reply, I feel honored by your kind words. I wish I had the same knowledge of the Japanese language as you have of the Chinese language. I try only to specialise myself in Japanese porcelain marks as a hobby, without really knowing Japanese language.

In the mean time, just like you I'm hoping others will join us to figure out how this mark is pronounced and what the translation is.
So if anyone have some thoughts about this, please, please share it with us.
Thanks in advance,
Martin.

Subject:Re: Chinese porcelain mark translation - advice please
Posted By: peter_ Mon, May 21, 2018

Without an image of the item it is difficult to tell whether the item itself is Chinese or Japanese.
The left side of the mark means "made by Wu Xiang-rui" (a Chinese name). Porcelain with this mark was originally exported from China to Japan in the Ming dynasty.
Later the same mark continued to be used on Japanese B/W wares, at least until the 19th century.


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