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Subject:bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Dave Edwards Thu, May 23, 2019 IP: 218.215.145.165

Can anyone help with this mark. The best I can do is ...Yu Qin Shan Fang
Is this correct?
Cheers




Link :Edwards


Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: mikeoz Thu, May 23, 2019

Two out of three ain't bad!

Wu Zhi something Fang 吳竹(?) 房

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Dave Edwards Fri, May 24, 2019

Thank you Mike.

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Bill H Fri, May 24, 2019

I believe the reading may be 吳竹山房 (Wu Zhu Shan Fang) in Mandarin Chinese. This has differing possibilities for translation. Wu is a surname as well as an abbreviation for Jiangsu Province, which would make the Chinese reading either "Jiangsu Bamboo Mountain Lodge" or "Wu's Bamboo Mountain Lodge". According to Mathews' CED, the character 吳 also can mean "Clamorous", suggesting the possibility of "Noisy Bamboo Mountain Lodge", but Mathews adds a fly to this ointment, saying with regard 吳, "some read it as 'hua' in this connection".

The only online hit I got on "吳竹山房" from Google was on a site that drew a warning from my antivirus program, so I didn't read past the index. So, sorry to leave everyone with a Chinese menu of translation choices from "Column A, B or C".

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Dave Edwards Fri, May 24, 2019

Thank you very much Bill. You must have spent some time on this.
Cheers

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: I.Nagy Fri, May 24, 2019

I read it,
梅竹山房 - Méi-zhu shan-fáng

The first character is derived from 梅→ 楳→ 某
Under this title you will find a very similar censer on the net.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Dave Edwards Sat, May 25, 2019

Thank you I.Nagy
I would like to look at that censer. Would you be able to provide the url for that site.
Cheers
Ed

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Bill H Sat, May 25, 2019

I, Nagy, you prove once again just what bountiful blessings you shower upon this forum.

Much obliged,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: rat Sat, May 25, 2019

The second photo here suggests an entirely different reading than those proposed so far...
https://read01.com/zh-cn/Paezeg.html

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Dave Edwards Sat, May 25, 2019

There seems to be a certain amount of disagreement in regard to this seal?
Interesting. Is it because the interpretation of the marks varies over time?

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Dave Edwards Sat, May 25, 2019

Another pic of the censer under discussion. It looks to have significant age.



Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Bill H Sun, May 26, 2019

The translation differences are slim when you get down to the zhuanshu characters. Below is a graphic of the standard and zhuanshu characters as read by I. Nagy and found on the website by rat. I've redrawn the zhuanshu as best I can on the basis of examples on the following authoritative Chinese Etymology website:

https://hanziyuan.net/#home

Photos of this mark at the website found by rat had some added interpretations of its translation that seemed really odd to me. Maybe due to something else I napped through in school. However, the translation in the text below the photos seemed more on track, and is the basis of what follows below.

Best regards,

Bill H.






Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Bill H Mon, May 27, 2019

I decided that my earlier elaboration might not make much sense without more information, so here's a screen shot of rat's findings, as cited herein. The red-circled labels under the pertinent photos of marks similar to the one posted by Dave read 臬足山房 (nie zu shan fang), which doesn't readily make sense to me. On the other hand, the circled four-character mark numbered "13" in the black & white text reads 杲竹山房 (gao zhu shan fang), which can mean "Mountain lodge with bright sunshine". However, I believe its only significance here is a probably coincidental resemblance of Gao/杲 to the zhuanshu form of Mei/梅, as used in I. Nagy's reading of the mark (at least pending further comment by I. Nagy).

Best regards,

Bill H.



Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Dave Edwards Mon, May 27, 2019

Thank you for all the effort and varying interpretations.
Would anyone be prepared to estimate an approx period?

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: rat Tue, May 28, 2019

I can't, sorry. I don't know enough about bronzes. In general, however, given the ubiquity of copies and forgeries in this and virtually every area of Chinese antiques, it's useful to adopt a skeptical stance and insist that the object prove that it is correct for a given time period, and not start from the view that "it could date from X time, though the xyz aspect of the object is uncertain".

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: rat Tue, May 28, 2019

Thanks for clarifying, Bill H. I agree that the reading in the photographs seems puzzling, but thought it might be useful to get a full picture of the hypotheses that seem to be out there.

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: I.Nagy Wed, May 29, 2019

Dear All,
Sorry for my longer silence , for a few days I was away in the "wilderness", without access to net etc.
Seemingly even the Chinese auction sites can not interpret this marking equally.
E.g. https://auction.artron.net/paimai-art5042671420 reads it 梅 (alternative form 楳) Others give it 杲
or 臬 ‐ These auction sites date these censers to Qing Dynasty.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Bill H Wed, May 29, 2019

Anything I know about zhuanshu was picked up right here in the forum from others or in trial & error attempts to work such marks out on my own. However, the problematic character at stake in this particular mark needs to be resolved by someone who has spent a lifetime in the specialty.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: bronze censer mark?
Posted By: Dave Edwards Thu, May 30, 2019

This is all very interesting. Thanks guys.


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