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Subject:Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sun, Nov 20, 2005

Hi here is a Jiaqing bowl or cup that I got at a steal of a price. I am pretty sure it is authentic--everything fits from enamels, foot rim to shape and mark. It has the graviata or scrafitto(i get them mixed up) ground which is hard to see in pictures. 6 inches in diameter 2.75 inches high.







Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Daniel Sun, Nov 20, 2005

The quality of the pics is not sufficient for a precise examination. (no footrim, no close-ups of the enamels, glaze, interior) But, my personal opinion is later Qing/Early Republic Period.
-the colour palette doesn't look mid-Qing, but younger. It personally "bites" my eyes.
- the overglaze iron-red sealmark indicates a date later than 1850
-as this is not an imperial piece, but ordinary utilitarian ware, it should have more traces of wear if it would be Jiaqing (i.e. gilt and mark)
- the porcelain itself seems not very fine, it looks robust
-the painting is not chinese taste - more like on younger export pieces
-concerning the footrim- I can't see it. But the foot looks a little bit angular (like cutten)to me.

I'm not an expert and also would like to hear comments from others. Anyway, as the real old pieces become more and more rare, the value of later pieces rise up too. And your piece seems of a very good condition for its age.

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sun, Nov 20, 2005

I havent a question on the date--it is a Jiaqing piece --I just have questions on the history of this hoof cup. I apologize for the pictures and will get better ones posted asap but it a match to a cup that is in Vermeer Griggs Gallery www.teadust under the famille rose category. I was wondering what they used them for such as wine water etc. It has been authticated by Skinner in Boston as a period Jiaqing piece, of course not Imperial--my next photos will be better so you can see. Pieces do not have to show wear---it is just normal for such an age that they do, this one has wear but very minimal.
I will take some photos in sun tommorow.

Subject:Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: njg Mon, Nov 21, 2005

It might be marked Jiaqing, the piece is not of the period. The torquoise ground is a typical feature of later ching wares.
An easy method is to find extant examples from the Jiaqing period to compare with, you will have a very hard time doing so.

The decorated scene is The Queen Mother of the West on her journey to the West, a theme very popular in the mid to late ching period. I disagree with Daniel in that I think it is an imperial piece.

The seal mark, decoration and turquoise all point to an imperial piece. The figures I can tell are very finely rendered in enamels and looks to be a quality piece. Within the figures should be flecks of gold being used for the crown. The method of enamelling by applying decoration on the enamels in the clothing is again points to a 19th century piece. Note the colour of the yellow in the piece, not jiaqing period.
The colour of the boat is orange, the imperial colour of the boats the Emperors and his entourage rode around in.

Never look at the mark when assessing porcelain, in particular Chinese wares.

Hopefully Mr Allen may still be a member and have an input.

A small point, the lady in the middle holding the blossom is Xi Wang Mu, Queen Mother of the West. Often confused with Guan Yin in decorated pots or statuary. Xi Wang Mu is depicted with either a blossom and or lingzhu.


Finally as Daniel pointed out the mark is not of the period s it is in red, within a catouche of torquoise. You will not find another piece from the jiajing period marked in that manner,it was not a method used.

Nick

Nice pot






Subject:Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: nj Mon, Nov 21, 2005

My apologies i was momentarily confusing an Emperor. No problem it being Jiaqing. I was comparing to a much earlier period of enamelling and confusing Emperors.

The method the base has been rendered still concerns me though.

Nick

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: njg Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Iv'e just had a quick look through Allen, there is a jiaqing example where the entire base is covered, a last quarter of 19th century where base is similar to yours and a fairly modern republic piece.
Comparing the turquoise ground your pots appears to be similar to the republican ground, but that could be the photo, this would have to be a hands on for me, to see the enamelling.

nick

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: nj Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Last point.

If the piece is mark and period then it is an imperial piece as it deals with the realm of the Gods and during the Ching this was the perogative of the Emperor and his Empress.

As an example only the Emperor was allowed to worship Shangti. To do so was on pain of death and the main cause of the Taiping rebellion and the setting up of secret societys to enable the indiginous people to worship their own God which they had been banned by outsiders to worship.
It worked on the premise only a God can worship a God. The Emperor also held the title Reincarnate Buddha, bestowed by the Dalai Lama. The Ching imperial incidently followed the yellow hat sect, you can tell from the colours they use in their Buddhist pieces.

As an example your pot the torquoise is representative of air and the phoenix. Its a white vessel and represents purity, but in its Chinese connection white is the colour of death and with Xi Wang Mu on her Journey to her resting place in the Kunlun mountains these wares are commemorative of a death and the death of a female. Incidently turquoise is also associated with the colour of the Empress as in the Ching the Empress in her phoenix form is shown dressed in torquoise or red.
This comes about due to the phoenix and buddhist attribute of air being green.

The Ming dynasty followed the Black hat lineage with the basic 5 element colours slightly different, the Black hat lineage adopted there colour scheme from the Chinese Buddhists of the Tang dynasty, who in turn adopted their colour scheme from the Classic of Changes, the I Ching.

nick

Is there any decoration on the opposite side.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Daniel Mon, Nov 21, 2005

I just saw the bowl you mentioned on Vermeer's website. Very interesting to compare!
http://www.teadust.com/gallery/fr/fr_jq_511_661.htm

Apart from the pricking colours, I also wonder about the two bats.


URL Title :Jiaqing bowl at Vermeer&Griggs


Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Nice discussion, and fun. Perhaps I'll add a little spice and suggest this possibility. Both this bowl and the Vermeers' are 20th century, 2nd part. (The mark is the last thing to consider as has been pointed out here.)

This is a wonderful subject matter for Jiaqing. But the figure rendering and the color usage are not consistent with imperial porcelain of the period. I've just done a quick flip through of about a dozen Sotheby's and Christie's and Taipei Museum catalogues and reference books. Found no Jiaqing Daoguang example in painting style and color range. The colors are too vibrant, closer to wucai than famille rose.

I invite you all to take a new look, seek top level examples, and draw your own conclusions. I shall also keep an eye open to look and keep an open mind.

For the present, I believe that this bowl and the Vermeers bowl may be acceptable to Skinner or Butterfield's. But not likely at Christie's or Sotheby's or Doyle as mark and period. Would be interesting to know if iGavel will accept it as such.

Better photos would be helpful, showing surface details and brush stroke detail. If you don't mind, Anna, I do think this is an excellent example for a full discussion pro and con. Wonderful to have another example link so nicely presented by Daniel.

Have fun!


Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005

It is quite possible that subject bowl and the Vermeers bowl were both painted from the same example somewhere, published in 2 different books with different perspectives. Now if we can find that example...

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Like I said it has been looked at by numerous experts including Skinners and here at RISD the period is not at all in question-Jiaqing--just looing for it's use.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Sorry I offend you. It is wonderful in collecting antiques to have conviction of truth. Enjoy your journey.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J. Allen Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Dear Anna,
I am sorry to disappoint you but this in my opinion is definitely not Jiaqing period, but a superb reproduction made in the early to mid Republic period, circa 1915 to 1930.

These high quality Jiaqing reproductions are accepted as genuine by a number of alleged experts, but they are given away by the use of Western style face shading and a very hard (but beautiful) white enamel, pale turquoise, and bright pink, in combination. I will be surprised if you will find a similar one listed as Jiaqing mark and period in either Christies or Sotheby's catalogues.

I have attached for comparison, j-pegs of the more usual style of 18th and early 19th century Chinese face decoration.

Please do not be disappointed or discouraged by my comments. It is still a top quality piece, much appreciated in today's escalating market.

Regards
Tony





Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Dear Anna,
I am sorry to disappoint you but this in my opinion is definitely not Jiaqing period, but a superb reproduction made in the early to mid Republic period, circa 1915 to 1930.

These high quality Jiaqing reproductions are accepted as genuine by a number of alleged experts, but they are given away by the use of Western style face shading and a very hard (but beautiful) white enamel, pale turquoise, and bright pink, in combination. I will be surprised if you will find a similar one listed as Jiaqing mark and period in either Christies or Sotheby's catalogues.

I have attached for comparison, j-pegs of the more usual style of 18th and early 19th century Chinese face decoration.

Please do not be disappointed or discouraged by my comments. It is still a top quality piece, much appreciated in today's escalating market.

Regards
Tony

Thanks Tony I am not disappointed--Mike Vermeer is probably one of the best in the world and if you look at his site www.teadust.com he has fully authenticated his bowl as Jiaqing and I am sure he would disagree with you on this, but as I said I was looking for the uses of it--wine water etc. I don't care if it is later piece but I will have to go with Mr Vermeer on it as he has the reputation and knowledge to back it up(not that you don't), but I do trust him as he is very well respected. I will post more pics of it as the white is not correct in these--too bright--Hopefully I get time tomorrow. Thanks Anna

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J. Allen Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Dear Anna,
Nick asked for my opinion, which I gave. I have no axe to grind, nor do I have one of these pieces to sell.

They are frequently confused with authentic Jiaqing mark and period pieces, such is the quality of the decoration. Incidentally, the more common decoration is boys at play, also beautifully painted in Western style.

Whether you believe me or not is your prerogative, but before you misrepresent to anyone else, may I respectfully suggest that you find a similar example in one of the numerous Chinese published museum or auction texts.

I would be interested in Mr Lee's opinion?

Regards
Tony

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Dear Anna,
Nick asked for my opinion, which I gave. I have no axe to grind, nor do I have one of these pieces to sell.

They are frequently confused with authentic Jiaqing mark and period pieces, such is the quality of the decoration. Incidentally, the more common decoration is boys at play, also beautifully painted in Western style.

Whether you believe me or not is your prerogative, but before you misrepresent to anyone else, may I respectfully suggest that you find a similar example in one of the numerous Chinese published museum or auction texts.

I would be interested in Mr Lee's opinion?

Regards
Tony

Hi Tony-I provided you with a similar example(Vermeer-Griggs) under "famille rose" in Gallery section of website. Do you think also that the Jiaqing bowl at www.teadust is misrepresented? I understand that Mr Vermeer is acknowledged as one of the foremost experts in the world on Chinese porcelain. The similarities in the bowl are undeniable....I am getting my facts from reputable dealers(Skinners) and they agreed with him. I personally could not authenticate it myself but have a great deal of faith in Vermeer's piece being authentic. I take everyones opinion into account without any hostility, but with the pictures I provided I would think an expert would not be able to render a defintitive opinion....I will provide much much better ones, maybe you will be convinced, maybe not, all is good though, I appreciate all opinions.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005

First off, this is most likely the outermost, biggest, of a nest of bowls. They are used most often for drinking Chinese wine. Stores easily and it is fun to banter about the different sizes used by friends imbibing together.

---------
Mr. Vermeers, or CaptainBoots, writes all his listings carefully. My reading of this listing is that he is saying the item "exhibits" an imperial mark of the period, not that the item is of the period. Of course someone else reading may find a different semantic. The sentences concerning mark and period in most of his listings read laboriously, a contrast with other text in the same listings. The accepted unambiguous wording is for example, "Jiaqing mark and of the period". I wonder if Mr. V will be as definitive in a statement dating this item as Mr. Allen, whether it be positive or negative. The wording leaves room for ambiguity. (This is not a reflection on his practice or his knowledge.)

My interest is in the collectors' journey, or journeys. And different collectors/dealers take different paths, with somewhat different destinations. Each is a little different from another. May you enjoy your journey.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005

First off, this is most likely the outermost, biggest, of a nest of bowls. They are used most often for drinking Chinese wine. Stores easily and it is fun to banter about the different sizes used by friends imbibing together.

---------
Mr. Vermeers, or CaptainBoots, writes all his listings carefully. My reading of this listing is that he is saying the item "exhibits" an imperial mark of the period, not that the item is of the period. Of course someone else reading may find a different semantic. The sentences concerning mark and period in most of his listings read laboriously, a contrast with other text in the same listings. The accepted unambiguous wording is for example, "Jiaqing mark and of the period". I wonder if Mr. V will be as definitive in a statement dating this item as Mr. Allen, whether it be positive or negative. The wording leaves room for ambiguity. (This is not a reflection on his practice or his knowledge.)

My interest is in the collectors' journey, or journeys. And different collectors/dealers take different paths, with somewhat different destinations. Each is a little different from another. May you enjoy your journey.

Hi--He also wrote on bottom "Qing Dynasty, Jiaqing Period (1796-1820)" --Hardly easy to confuse anyone.

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Hello Tony, I should revise my dating and agree with you about the early Republic era, 1920s to 40s, most likely the later using blanks from the 20s. I tend to focus more on the painting composition and techniques. The graviata blank nagged at me and it looks too good to be today's. But well done late 19th to 1920s. Forgot that in the Republic era, not all paintings were done in great detail.

By the way, CaptainBoots just sold a pair of beautiful coral back cups of this 1920s period on eBay for about $665.00. Very nice.

URL Title :coral back cups


Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005

They are lovely cups! Was this Coral ground also used on larger vases during Guangxu?

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J. Allen Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Hi Kang,
The best Republic porcelain is in strong demand.

In my collection at Sotheby's, London sale on 9th November was a very nice large Qianlong marked but Republic period vase, possibly late Qing, circa 1910.
It sold for 10,000 pounds, plus 23.5% buyer's premium and 5% VAT; or approximately $US23,000.

My two Guangxu mark and period flambe fanghu vases sold for 8,500 and 11,500 pounds, plus premium and VAT. One similar sold on eBay within the last two years for around $US2,400.

There is still the odd bargain to be found, and if Anna bought this cheaply, as she says, it should prove to be a good investment, regardless of whether or not she accepts our dating assessment.

Regards
Tony

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Congratulations on your sales in London.

The early republic period has been one of my favorites. I still have a number of them. Can usually spot them clear across a room.

I thought the datings in the coral back listing was very interesting.

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005

Anthony did you disagree with Mike from Vermeer-Griggs on his bowl date--he clearly put date as Jiaqing period. My bowl may be Republic as you say but it is nearly identical to his. As far as value I am giving it to RISD as part of thier "timeline of Chinese Porcelain" exhibit this Spring--I paid 35$--a steal whether it is Republic or Jiaqing would only make a difference on where to place it in thier timeline. I am too old to start collecting and selling in fact I was born during the Republic period-haha. My father who owned a lamp shop from 1920-1966 left me about 200-300 pieces that I am still dating, and some I have found to be very valuable, mostly vases intended for lamps. He left notes on quite a few items but many are a mystery--I will post some more. Regards~~Anna

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Tue, Nov 22, 2005

enhanced vermeer bowl



Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Tue, Nov 22, 2005

My lighting was bad on the bowls pic and I used photo editor to enhance the "darkeness" I have taken the Vermeer Bowl and used same setting and it comes out same (biting as it was called) colors. I have found some Jiaqing pieces on auction with similar marks(I never go by the mark) but these are similar to Vermeers bowl. I am waiting for sunlight so I may get the true colors in my bowl. Hopefully tommorow! Regards Anna
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?sid=&intObjectID=4603085&SE=CMWCAT04+134831+1515344093+&QR=M+1+15+Aqc0000900+116108++Aqc0000900+&entry=jiaqing&T=Lot&SU=1&RQ=False&AN=16

http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=4JVQ5

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Tue, Nov 22, 2005

Dear Anna,
The pair of Christies' vases you have posted the link to are a good comparison.

Compare the pale, almost pastel colors of the central panel of these vases with the excessively bright, almost garish enamels of the other two bowls. Also, the pale turquoise ground that was used on Imperial pieces of this period.

Regards
Tony

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Tue, Nov 22, 2005

Dear Anna,
The pair of Christies' vases you have posted the link to are a good comparison.

Compare the pale, almost pastel colors of the central panel of these vases with the excessively bright, almost garish enamels of the other two bowls. Also, the pale turquoise ground that was used on Imperial pieces of this period.

Regards
Tony

Hi--Tony--the turqoise is not nearly as bright as in photos, it is much more subdued--I need to take photos in sunlight--today RAIN--hopefully before weekend there will be some sunlight. The colors are also not like the hot pink in photo--the photos were dark and I used ACDC PhotoEditor to brighten them which was a mistake. Same with the Teadust Chilong vase I posted--so hard to get the actual color due to the flash--any suggestions? Thanks~~Anna

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Thu, Nov 24, 2005

Here are better Pictures. The bowl at www.teadust.com is Period and Mark according to Mr Vermeer. This one?? Looks very much the same. The pictures show a much lighter turqoise and not as "neon" like colors. Foot looks correct for period as well as paste--any thoughts on these photos?







Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Thu, Nov 24, 2005

more pics







Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Thu, Nov 24, 2005

Doesn't matter how a private collector dates any item.

RISD is an excellent school for the fine arts, though not for Asian antiques. How it dates items in an exhibition reflects on its reputation. As suggested earlier, it may be wise to consult more recognized authority. Boston MFA or Peabody Essex may be willing to do a favor for RISD if New York is not convenient.

Seeing the new pictures, my first impression is more likely. The blue and red in the clothing suggest acrylic paint. Sorry to disappoint.

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Thu, Nov 24, 2005

HI Kang thanks for the input!---They would never place it without a full work up by someone who has nationally recognized expertise...we get stuff on loan from other Museums since the RISD collection is rather lacking, an appraisal by Doyle New York is due within two weeks. I havent even shown it to RISD yet until I get more info. Are you familiar with Sandra Andacht? I am getting an appraisal also from her(by photo only) which should be in by next week--the Doyle appraisal will be from the actual piece. If it is Republic, I do not think it would be a good example from that period to use as the timeline will want to have pieces that reflect the typical pieces from the period and this doesnt seem to me to be a "typical" piece fom that time. Here is a nice Republic blue an white vase I have. Although not typical of period it is a nice piece. It was valued at 1200.00 in 1999 and has a nice spurious Yongzhen mark. Regards ANNA





Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Fri, Nov 25, 2005

Glad to see you are covering the bases even if you are persistent. Doyle should be ok.

The little bird vase looks very good, should be between 6 to 10" high. It looks like an unsigned Wan Bu (1896-1968) and stylistically from his prime around 1919-38, before the Japanese invasion of China, during the golden period of Republic of China porcelain. He used various marks and one of them is this same Qianlong mark. I have seen a very similar bird before by him. A Wang Bu blue and white is rarer than famille rose of the period. Would be an excellent example.

Word of caution even though I'm not aware of recent copies of Wang Bu. The Wang examples I've seen do not have the decorative border below the rim. You should be sure that the biscuit & glaze are of the period. Also if it left China before 1995, 1990 preferably, it would not have been worthwhile for them to forge early Republic ware.

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Fri, Nov 25, 2005

Thanks for the wonderful information. My father got this in 1963 in Japan. Nice vase 6.75 high and approx 4 in diameter. I had a matching smaller squat shaped vase that someone bought a while back. It is a nice example but is it typical of Republic ware or of a higher quality. Most Republic pieces I see are not as refined, although there are a lot of nice ones most I come across at auction and online are crudely done usually famille rose. I have a ton of them, mostly lamps. I posted a mint green lamp which I think is republic period or maybe little earlier? You have been very helpful...I will have to go to library and look up this artist--THANKS! Anna

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sat, Nov 26, 2005

Hi the jury is in, and you are correct the bowl is an early Republic piece valued at 1000.00. The Vermeer Bowl at www.teadust.com is , however, mark and period. As you had stated the turqoise is too green and the mark is slightly off as well as the hue of the purple. You have been very helpful thank you for your insight , I will try to post some more to see if I can keep you on your toes! It will have a new home and hopefully we can get a Jiaqing piece to have near it to compare the differences. Thanks for the great thread!

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Sat, Nov 26, 2005

Dear Anna,
One thing you will learn with Chinese porcelain is that there are many diverging views, even among the so-called experts. Mike Vermeer and I do not happen to agree on the dating of his hoof cup, which incidentally was recently listed on eBay and passed in at $510. I hope we can agree to disagree without rancour or hostility.

You have however baldly stated that the jury is in and this bowl of yours is now Republic period and worth $1,000, and his is mark and period. What you should have said was a (named) expert said in his or her opinion it was this.

I have yet to see one of these Republic cups or bowls sell for anything like $1,000, even when mis-dated as Jiaqing mark and period.

With the ever-growing numbers of largely inexperienced mainland Chinese collectors and dealers buying practically anything antique and Chinese, there will be more mistakes made. At Sotheby's sale of my collection earlier this month, two pieces which Sotheby's and I believed were early Republic (and catalogued as 20th century), were obviously believed by at least two bidders to be miscatalogued, and were bid way above the estimates.

At other Chinese auctions in London, there were several pieces which to my eyes (and my agent's) were obvious fakes, yet believed by others to be genuine.

The point I am somewhat laboriously making, is in future, please keep an open mind about opinions you receive, no matter how experienced you think the person giving them is.

And no matter how much you try and will opinions to agree with you that a piece is genuine, at the end of the day a fake will always be a fake. Fortunately, in the case of the best Republic period fakes, they are valued today also for the beauty of their decoration.
Regards
Tony

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sat, Nov 26, 2005

Dear Anna,
One thing you will learn with Chinese porcelain is that there are many diverging views, even among the so-called experts. Mike Vermeer and I do not happen to agree on the dating of his hoof cup, which incidentally was recently listed on eBay and passed in at $510. I hope we can agree to disagree without rancour or hostility.

You have however baldly stated that the jury is in and this bowl of yours is now Republic period and worth $1,000, and his is mark and period. What you should have said was a (named) expert said in his or her opinion it was this.

I have yet to see one of these Republic cups or bowls sell for anything like $1,000, even when mis-dated as Jiaqing mark and period.

With the ever-growing numbers of largely inexperienced mainland Chinese collectors and dealers buying practically anything antique and Chinese, there will be more mistakes made. At Sotheby's sale of my collection earlier this month, two pieces which Sotheby's and I believed were early Republic (and catalogued as 20th century), were obviously believed by at least two bidders to be miscatalogued, and were bid way above the estimates.

At other Chinese auctions in London, there were several pieces which to my eyes (and my agent's) were obvious fakes, yet believed by others to be genuine.

The point I am somewhat laboriously making, is in future, please keep an open mind about opinions you receive, no matter how experienced you think the person giving them is.

And no matter how much you try and will opinions to agree with you that a piece is genuine, at the end of the day a fake will always be a fake. Fortunately, in the case of the best Republic period fakes, they are valued today also for the beauty of their decoration.
Regards
Tony

Hi Tony- Sandra Andacht was the appraiser...What I meant that "jury was in" was that you all agreed that it was a Republic piece-your opinions were unanimous-like a jury-get it?
This was the value given for insurance by Sandra. I am really not interested so much in value but as far as authenticity, your evaluation and hers were both the same period. here is what she said, and she is recognized as an EXPERT as you are in this field, and as is Mike Vermeer--I would harldly have any hostility over this little bowl...I value all your opinions. I do see the differences in this one and the Vermeer Bowl but as you said -his bowl may as well be of another period also--I have no idea and am not about to pretend I do.

DESCRIPTION/TITLE:
Chinese Porcelain Horse Hoof Shaped Cup
DATE OF MANUFACTURE:
Early 20th century/ Early Republic C. 1925
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN:
China
MAKER/MAKER'S MARKS:
see below
INSCRIPTIONS:
n/a
DIMENSIONS:
6 inches diameter and 2.75 high
CONDITION:
See Below
FAMILY HISTORY:
n/a
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS:
This appraisal is based upon the images and written description that you have provided. The following is my opinion. This appears to be an Early 20th century copy of the mark and period bowl found on the web site Vermeer and Griggs at teadust.com for $2500 . There are obvious differences between your cup and the one on Vermeer and Griggs. Your cup has a less defined motif and different motif, the figures and their attire are not the same. The markings indicating Jiaqing ( Chia Ching) 1796-1920 are not the same. The European green base on your cup varies from the one you cited. In addition, the Famille Rose that I see on your piece has too much purple in the hue. There are other differences which a more formal will indicate appraisal. The Chinese are still notorious for continuing to copy earlier period pieces. The price of $2500 at Vermeer and Griggs, that you stated in your information, is low, in my opinion, for a mark and period cup. Keep in mind that the values listed below can vary depending upon condition (which I assume is perfect), locale, where and how marketed, etc.


Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Edward shumaker Sun, Nov 27, 2005

Anna-

I would like to share with you some observations that I've learned from a dear friend that has passed on. According to his notes he writes-

A true collector is never concerned with monetary value of the object he collects. He/she is driven by passion, such passion that evokes the need to learn. There is a process of refinement, of the senses, and the knowledge that is acquired in time, and only in time, can one come to appreciate the true value of the art object in question. It is not enough to know shape, design, brushstroke, or any number of techniques used in the manufacturing process; for that which is produced by man, can be reproduced anew by man. Take no man's word for it, for if you cannot come to the conclusion by all the resources (The right ones), then all the learned men/women will never enlighten you. Experts will disagree with experts, but only you can make the difference in the quest for the correct answer. The thrill of the hunt is discovery, and discovery is the pleasure of knowing.


Ed

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sun, Nov 27, 2005

Thanks ED---I totally agree!

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: njg Mon, Nov 28, 2005

Shall we leave the last word with the ancients:-

What is, is, What is not, is not.
The Tao is made because we walk it
things become what they are called.
Why is this so? Surely because this is so.
Why is this not so? Surely because this is not so.
Everything has what is innate,
everything has what is necessary.
Nothing is not something.
Nothing is not so.
Therefore, take a stalk of wheat and a pillar,
a leper or a beauty like Hsi-shih,
the great and the insecure,
the cunning and the odd:
all these are alike to the Tao.
In their difference is their completeness.
In their completeness is their difference.


From the book of Chuang Tzu



Nick

Its the difference which makes Harmonious Change.

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Mon, Nov 28, 2005

Nick-

Wise words, thank you.

Ed

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Sun, Dec 04, 2005

Just saw this now.

URL Title :http://www.trocadero.com/pipjoy/items/464180/en3store.html


Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Sun, Dec 04, 2005

Just saw this now.

URL Title :http://www.trocadero.com/pipjoy/items/464180/en3store.html


Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: njg Sun, Dec 11, 2005

Its become quite apparant that a large number of Chinese Imperial wares of all types are based on the divine measure as given in the Mandate of Heaven.

The length of the Mandate is 120mm and ratio's thereof to many other reference points in the Mandate.

So one possible way is to measure the pots and if they conform then I would doubt very much if a faker knew the measure. I doubt a modern faker would.

A certain Song Emperor would smash every pot from the kilns if they were not perfect.
Standard imperial measure, Emperor Chin.

Nick.

Merry Xmas all.

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Sun, Dec 11, 2005

Hi Kang--I would hardly compare the quality but the color and mark are similar. I use that type of bowl for soup from time to time--the hoof bowl is much too nice for that--thin potted and very nice--this is a clunky thick potted and looks like it was painted by a child---which I wouldn't at all doubt as they are still making clothes for Walmart in PRC China using Child labor.

Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Daniel Thu, Mar 09, 2006

The discussion is already some months ago, but I guess some of you still remember and are interested to see another example with a very similair decoration, but other form. The mark is also Jiaqing (not Guangxu!) Of the period or Early Republic? Please see link.
Cheers,
Daniel




URL Title :Very similair bowl


Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: david Wed, May 02, 2018

Hi Anna:

Just read your bbs and do you still have the blue bird vase available?

my email is : [email protected]



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