Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Detail List
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:Bronze Cup
Posted By: Daryl Tan Sat, Dec 24, 2005 IP: 60.49.37.31

I would like to ask for advise on this small bronze which height is 6.5cm with a raised leg and interesting motif. This bronze is not Chinese and I think more of Mongolian type. On its side is a square hole which I think a piece of wood is insert to be used as a handle. This is probably used as a ladle for wine or wine.

The cup is raised on three legs which is connected a a ring as its base. From the base,it can be seen than the bronze is poured through one of the legs. On its body, there are three panels which is separated by three coiling snake figure with two snake facing up and one snake at the bottom. The snake is decorated with scales and forking tongue. Inside the panel, there is a stylized deer with long flowing horns galloping on very fine legs.The deer is biting something, which is long flowing with its mouth. If the cup is turned upside down, in the middle of the panel there is a stylized bird with big crown and big eye. On top of the bird, there is a reptilian like creature crouching, with big eyes and spikes on its back.

From the look of the patina and the corrosion, I would think this bronze is of an old age. I have research by various means but unable to fine this type of motif. I would appreciate if someone has seen this type of motive before.

Daryl







Subject:Re: Bronze Cup
Posted By: Daryl Tan Sat, Dec 24, 2005

Additional pictures of the cup.

Daryl







Subject:Re: Bronze Cup
Posted By: nj.jg Sun, Jan 01, 2006

The triangle, three types of light, the snakes should be head to tail. The deer, you also have a fish, the makarra crocodile, the bird is the phoenix., Chase the Dragon, the shaman speaks.
It's pure Classic of Changes.

A smaller version of Hsia/Shang bronzes onwards.
Dragon building sacrificial pots. Could you give me measurements and draw all of the vessel out, there should be eight animals.
The snakes two of them can be found in the sky.
One is hydra, the other serpens caput. Hydra can be seen through the arch of Leo, Serpens Caput through Corona Borealis hence the arch shape of the vessel. Head to tail, head to tail, head to tail and connect. The 6 Cycle Wheel of life, the nine mewas of Wu the Great the Diviner. The Classic of Changes now dates to some 40,000 years of age.
Your pot is one of many examples throughout all the cultures of the World who populated Europe from Africa. The fully developed Classic of Changes is at Mezirich in the Ukraine. It also it the Central American Maya Indian, the Australian Aboriginal ( The Dreaming ). All one and the same thing. The Six Cycle Wheel of Life.

A pairing of 1 and 6, 2 and 5, 3 and 4 , in positions one to six, with either 6 or 9 in the top and bottom position.
Head to tail , head to tail, head to tail, face up, face down and connect.
It was a method of divination using four mansions in the sky to connect the connect the guishen spirits at North Pole, this was part of the Yuan Heng Li Zhen, The way of water.

If your vessel has at one time been an imperial vessel and the Tao of Water was not for the uninitiated, it was the responsibility of the Emperor, then , it should contain hidden triagrams, the supple lines of which are normally the eyes , the triagrams are normaaly around the mouth area.

It's pure Classic of Changes, the Chuckchi of Northern Siberia were of the same tradition. Mesopotamia, Mohendo daro. Every Ancient Cultre used the 6 cycle wheel of life codex and adapted.

Interesting little pot. Looks about 12th - 13th century but the iconography used suggests a lot earlier and I would have have to very much have to see the pot and work out the full motif.

The decoration is based on a 20000 year old naturally calcified mammoth tusk which is aan astronomic tool. Was vwnerated by many generations and eventually the item became the Tian Ming or Jade (tusk) Mandate of Heaven. There is pictures of it on the Forum.

njg

Happy New Year

The 6 cycle is just the same as the Magic 15 square, the Greater Seal of Saturn. Built pyramids as observatories. Layout of whole Mayan cities based on the stars and three areas in particular. The dragon building cultures who follwed the dragon and settled the Earth with the 6 cycle used by the elite of society's as a religous hold on the peoples. You still see it used now in Secret Society's. They will never have seen the Master Seal, the seal within a seal, or a magic 15 square within a larger magic 15 square. Star coordinates.
The Cycle Wheel of Life and an amazing culture at Ice Age Mezhirich who developed a bar dot system of numbering and a bar dot system of divination from 6 squared areas in the sky which changed as the stars progressed on their nightly circumpolar and 26000 year precessional cycle.
This culture were that good astronomers they knew precession and fixed it and show on the Master Ho thu, every star whic will become North pole, including Vega, with still another 10000 years before it becomes North Pole.
The Jade astronomic tool has already seen Vega as the North Pole. As Vega occupys the number one position in the Lo shu, the tool was made C 18444 BC. The Chukchi cave art with leo past the eastern meridian by 61 degrees date chukchi art to about 7500 BC as leo was low down on the eastern meridian at 10500 BC.
Rambling again . I'm just in the process of writing the Six Cycle Wheel of Life Codex and I,m trying to do it at the hurry. In Siberia they are digging up mammoth tusks and recarving them. They are destroying the records of a culture as this is what they recored on with the bar dot system seen at Mezhirich, they are minaturists, the acrhaeologists describe the tusks as having been gnawed by some rodent.
No this there writing. The Classic of Changes in its fully developed form at Mezhirich.
Your pot is a part of that tradtion.



Subject:Re: Bronze Cup
Posted By: Daryl Tan Sun, Jan 01, 2006

The dimension:
Height: 6.5cm,Diameter of base: 4.5cm,Dia of mouth: 4.5cm,Height of base: 1.5cm,square hole: 1cm x 0.8cm
Two of the snakes are of the same and the other is a different snake as the eyes and scales are different.The snake connect head to tail,with two of the snake heads facing upwards and one of the head is at the bottom.As can be seen from the last picture,there is something flowing towards the snake head.
There is no fish and I can only see a deer,a bird and a reptilian.All together including the three snake are six animals.
From the workmanship, bronze colour,patina and verdigris,I would think this is much earlier than 12th - 13th century and probably from one of the roaming tribes.

Subject:Re: Bronze Cup
Posted By: njg Tue, Jan 03, 2006

I would agree on your earlier dating.

It's just as to when. I would not be able too assist any further without really seeing the piece. The fish is there. I can see it.
There should be eight in total.
Later this reduces to nine when man decides to trample down on the women.

The four picture of the series above is the one you can make out the fur bearing fish.
From experience the method of putting the animals in , can be very devious.
Look at Hsia bronzes onwards.
All sacrificial vessels are , star maps, with different representations of the T'ien Ming.
The Mandate of Heaven. All contain an inscription, usually hidden around the mouth in Bagua form.
Your bronze is a very interesting piece.

The six cycle wheel of life and bar dot system of the ancient cultures. This had developed before man left Africa. I have now identified the Cycle in every ancient culture. The bar dot system of numbering I have traced to Africa.
I am just in the process of writing up the lost codex of the Cycle, it's not really lost,
Just forgotten, due to other influences and it's corruption to an eight cycle.
The Classic of Changes contains the full model.

1 - 6 positions, with pairings of 1 and 6 , 2 and 5, 3 and 4, with 6 and 9 in the top or bottom position. Change the vedic 6 and 9 to that which is found on the calcified mammoth tusk, the Ho Thu, Lo Shu (Dragon jade) and carry out the 5 processes which includes the divinatory method of "Yuan Heng Li Shen", The Tao of Water. The Heng is the inscription process. At present missed on all wares from Niuheliang to 19th century China.
Not just China, hid the metod of divination away, Mesopotamia, Central American Maya.
It's part of the tradition.
At times it's just a question of counting the numbers and the Lo Su is present in the artwork.
Gold Dagger sheath of Ur at the British Museum.
The hard one on the sheath is the square containing 4 x 3 dots. Thats the awkward leg of the divination.
Sacrificial Mayan knives, count the turquoise.
The tablets of Babylonia at the British Museum contain the Greater Seal (Lo Shu) in geometric form. The Pyramids built as massive observatories based on the square. The magic 15 square. Mayan cities and surrounding country side built as massive star maps. From arial view just draw in the constellations. The centre of the city is usually Draco. With walkways to various parts of the city at solstices and Equinoxes where Draco is in the sky at that time of year.

Civilzation came with the magic square and astronomy. The cave dwelling peoples at 40000 BC were recording accurately celestial movement. Nearly 100% of the art of all the ancients was based on the 6 Cycle wheel od life, especially those of the elites who held the knowledge and it was used as is now, to subjugate peoples who lacked the knowledge.

Go to go

Lovely piece.

Nick

The 4th picture, the eye of the fish is 1 - 2 0'clock and work backwards in the vignette to 7 clock.

Subject:Re: Bronze Cup
Posted By: Daryl Tan Sun, Jun 21, 2015

Hope that some members have came across this type of bronze with several motifs.From the bronze patina,it is a very very old bronze probably more than 1000 yrs old.


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |