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Hi, I'm interested in this Hetian jade selling at ebay. Can anyone help me to identify the authenticity of this jade? I'm not concern about the age, but would like to know if it is a real Hetian Jade. Any help will be much appreciated. Thanks.

Look at this:

http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2007/12/8/prices-of-small-chinese-white-jade-carvings.html

This could be a real Hetian jade, but it is modern. However one can't be abosolutely sure from a photo. You get lots of this sort of modern Hetian jade carving in China, its price is dependent on size, color and quality of carving. The bigger the more expensive of course and the whitter and more transparent the more expensive also it must not have any flaws as well. Pieces that are well carved are worth more. If your piece was Hetian jade it will worth about 300 yuan retail in China, because it is small has flaws and is not very well carved as the hotei is not complete.

It is extremely difficult to pin point exactly if a piece of nephrite is from the Hetian district of Xinjiang, China from pictures as far as I am concerned. I need to see and feel it physically.

If you're not sure it is best to pass. I will never purchase anything by just looking at pictures. There is a Chinese saying that says "never buy a cow from the other side of the hill".

Judy Tan

i like sister tan's old chinese saying; in america they use to say "don't buy a pig in a poke" a 'poke' being of course, a bag, purse, wallet or pocket.

URL Title :Subject:Is this real Hetian Jade?

Dear Ruli

Looking at the picture, it looks like Xinjiang Hetian white jade river pebble, however, many jade mountain slabs were ground, cut and dyed to imitates the expensive white jade river pebbles, and more of heated chalcedony as well as molded Peking glass could be faked to look like white jade pebble.

This style of Hotai can be found anywhere in jade shops.

In conclusion, can not be confirmed without personal handling, and eBay sellers will never provide any SG test result of the stones, "Buy at your own risk!".

Have fun
Anita Mui

Thank you for all of the above comments. They are so precious to me who is still a novice in jade collecting. I think I will pass on this one, as it is risky to buy something that is based only on pictures. Thanks everybody. It is ultimately a great pleasure to join this forum.

I have a few pieces of white jade which was given by an old friend. I don't know what kind of jade they are. Again, your professional help will be much appreciated.

It is hard to tell from the pictures. It seems that the item is lack of luster and translucency. The yellow stains can possibly be artificially enhanced.

I am going to post a common piece of Hetian jade for comparison.

If this is listed on eBay with very low minimum bids by any non-US dealers I would not even touch it with a 3-foot pole. The reason is if this is indeed good quality (not even the best) hetian jade, then it would be sold for a lot more in China. Currently there is no scientific tests that can confirm a piece of white nephrite jade to be Hetian jade. (*Specific gravity and hardness can only confirm it is nephrite but not whether it is Hetian jades. The Chinese have been trying to establish a minimum standard for Hetian jade such as: a minimum S.G. of 2.96 and a hardness of 6 but even they cannot agree on it. The government did issue certificate for real Hetian jades.) Just like Judy said, there are many Xinjiang white nephrite out there and all came from the Kunlun mountain, some from Khotan, but some from Qingha. Their physical properties are so similar, nobody even the experts can tell the difference. It compounded with whiter nephrite jades from Russia that were sold as Hetian jades. You also cannot confirm a piece of white Hetian jade with its pictures, many times its colors shown are simply incorrect (white becomes green and vice versa).

A nice quality Hetian river pebble costs a fortune, from US$30 a gram and up. I have seen many average sized white Hetian river jade pebbles selling for US 2,000 or more in China. If this piece is indeed is Hetian jade and it is white, then if it just weighs about 20 gram, just material alone will be worth US$600. Believe me, they would have no problems in selling them inside China and they would never sell them on eBay. Chinese merchants were never known for stupidity.

There was a dealer who was selling Hetian jade on eBay for very low prices, after I questioned the quality of them, he admitted they were actually jades from QingHa and I suggested him changed their descriptions accordingly. He was very honest and did change their descriptions. I am afraid to buy any Hetian jades from eBay.

The only way you can find any real and quality Hetian jade carvings at reasonable price is may be by buying those that were purchased in China much earlier and bought back to U.S.A. or overseas. There are quite a few actually listed on eBay by a U.S. dealer but they are not cheap. Starting from US$500 an up. I cannot tell if they are authentic or not. Most jade collectors want nice Hetian jade carvings and their prices can only keep going up and for that reason more and more fakes will come to the market.

Bill

Just because a dealer is in the U.S. does not mean they have jades "purchased in China much earlier." U.S. dealers can source jade fakes from eBay dealers in China just like everyone else. This is a poor assumption to make.

For example, please search for the eBay dealers EARTHWORKSGALLERY and PENUMBRA2001 (you will have to search for completed listings for PENUMBRA2001, nothing there for sale just now). These dealers seem separated at birth: in the same town, use the same photo setup, and use the same dreamy language to describe their stones. PENUMBRA2001 seems to regularly buy jades from dealers in China who are alleged (on this forum and one other) to be sellers of fakes. So is this person selling his new China acquisitions, or their fine pieces bought "much earlier" in China? It is obvious the dealer knows enough jade terms and history to provide a good story, but do these stories match the stones?

I would not buy jade without real provenance, unless for decorative purposes. Or to soak eBay suckers romanced by a tall tale for a quick profit to fund a raging jade habit.

Mary:

Can you read between lines? I did not really try to say that"a dealer is in the U.S. means they have jades "purchased in China much earlier." I guess I did not make myself clear.

All I am trying to say is the only way you can purchase real Hetian jades cheap outside China are those that were bought in China long time ago (when prices were still cheap) and bought back to the U.S. Then when the owners die and their family decide to sell those jades, then is when you can buy them cheaper here in the U.S. than in China. Otherwise why would they export good Hetian jade carvings that can sell for more in China to sell for less in the States? Usually this dealer only sell their jades one time and with much lower bids. They are not professional dealers. I guess by mixing the U.S. dealer into it make you misunderstand my statement. My apology.

However, just being curious, why would you even bother looking at eBay when you do not trust eBay and would not buy anything without provenance?

Another question is: provenance from whom?

It reminds me so many coin investors who are not collectors would only buy rare coins with papers issued by professional grading agencies such as PCGS or NGC. They do not know anything about coins themselves and do not care about their qualities but only the papers stating how good the coins are. A friend of mine had spent US $13,000 in purchasing 11 rare U.S. coins with such papers because they were supposed to be great investments. He didn't bother to learn anything about coin collecting. Guess what? Five years later, all his coins found to have finger prints all over them (messed up when they were graded). Yes he could either return them to the original dealer because of the problems or bought back by the professional agency but guess how much they would reimburse him? $5,100 because the market is down.

I hope you are a true collector and not an investor who would only trust provenance in anything you collect. You would be much better off in buying gold than hetian jade then. Good luck.

B

Please read the first reply in this thread from one of the jade experts I respect the most in this forum and I believe he has tons of experience with auction house but he cautioned:

"Beware of auction houses selling fakes too."

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=29844

Bill,
While I think we're all in agreement on the fact that most, if not all, of the affordable (or more) jade pieces on Ebay China would fall under question of their authenticity. Some of the US dealers/Auction houses are also just reselling pieces recently (in the past 5 years or less) acquired. Whether they have come from legitimate estate auctions should also be questionable in many cases. Since anyone can claim anything, with no substantiating proof.

Having done a search of auctions on Ebay for jade in the US under several criteria's such as estate, old, oriental ect. Many of the similar and more exotic questionable pieces for enormous amounts came up, that you may find on Ebay China.

Also having observed certain large repeat buyers from some Ebay China sellers who happen to be from the same areas that these items are being listed at would definitely make you question US auctions as well.

Judy�s Chinese saying "never buy a cow from the other side of the hill", is something that has a lot of relevance when it comes to internet purchases. As well as assistance from those that are able to provide viable information like the link that Mr. Levine provided. We are all able to learn a little bit more, of course at different speeds! :-)

Good hunting!
Jim

Hi, Jim:

I posted a message at the other forum in which expressed what I thought about provenances (or what other thought about them):

"One of the most important things is even Larry had suggested not to purchase any jades without provenances. There is a Mary who was very vehement in rejecting any jades without provenance. I believe they have something to do with their resale values. Many times you pay more for the provenance of a jade piece than the jade itself. Now I understand that is the Old Boy network trying to protect their money-making business by limiting to who can sell expensive jades. Quite a few jade friends did tell me that those large and famous auctions houses would simply refuse any jades without provenances. I believe the provenances they want are the one issued by them. It is truly sad that many jade collectors are simply jade investors who have to depend on provenances.

When I mentioned this to my very experienced Hongshan jade friend, he was quite irated with me because he said he knew a lot more about Hongshan jades and Han jades than all those BIG auction houses jade experts combined and he did not need their stupid provenances. I believe he is quite right. As a result, I believe he had purchased quite a few pieces of authentic Han and Hongshan pieces in very reasonable prices. I was shocked to find out such pieces are available in surch affordable prices. He also said something that made a lot of senses: there are a bigger demand for Han pieces in China than for Hongshan pieces, therefore HS pieces can be acquired cheaper than Hon. What an interesting awakening for me."

Bill

P.S. I forget to mention that it is also possible some auction houses are afraid that without provenances the government from where these antiques were obtained could request the return of them. I am not sure if they can indeed enforce them though.

Bill,

You do not appear to understand what a provenance is. It is simply a line of ownership. An auction house would not appear in a provenance unless the house bought the item and then resold it at a later date. An auction house merely facilitates a transaction.

For example, I have a Japanese bronze censor that:
1) was collected by William Sturgis Bigelow in the Meiji era,
2) donated to the Boston Museum of Fine Arts in the early 1900s,
3) then deaccessioned and auctioned (by Skinner, Inc.) in the fall of 2005
4) when I bought it.

The above is the provenance of the piece and the provenance now includes me.

Provenance gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. Do I feel good that W S Bigelow and the Boston MFA owned my censor? You bet. Two recognized authorities accepted it as authentic. Does it mean it is authentic? No. But it was first collected in the right time period and I can trace it from near the time it was made to the point it came into my possession.

Cheers,
Stan

Stan:

Thank you for trying to explain it to me. I probably should not have called it a piece of paper or comparing it with the paper for coins. Of course I understand what provenance is, just as you had explained. There are provenance for many rare coins too. If they come from the famous David Bower or other famous collection, then everybody wants a piece of it.

The problem is what would they recognize as "provenance", only pieces sold by other famous auction houses that belong to their "Old Man's Club"? Would they recognize it if you buy it from a reputable dealer ? in U.S.? in China? How about from an individual? What type of provenance would they accept or reject, that is my question? May be you can explain more.

If it needs to have a provenance to make one feel good about his purchase, then I guess it is like buying insurance. What can I say? More power to it. Not too long ago, I saw Spinks (yes that Spinks) sold via eBay (yes eBay) a lot of "rare" Hong Kong coins in the most outrageous prices (much more than I thought they were worth) and guess what? They sold almost most of them at close to what they asked for. I guess there are simply too many collectors counting on the provenance provided by them instead of really know anything about HK coins.

B

I have to agree with most of what Mary has to say in this thread. I am penumbra2001 and the new ebay store earthworksgallery is also mine. This is no attempt at deception, as all of my customers and friends know, but simply a new venue that is an outgrowth of my physical store. I do not like selling on ebay for several reasons, but it has enabled me to direct interested parties to my web site and my store. I don�t believe ebay truly does justice for items such as these, and I am personally very wary about every piece listed on ebay. I may search through two or three hundred pieces of junk on ebay to find a diamond in the rough. I know it is not my best use of time since I have more reliable sources, but I am an ebay junkie.
The lion�s share of the Chinese jade market today is fake, without question. Then there are the reproductions, which are beautifully carved with no intent at deception. Anyone who has carefully watched the jade market over the years knows how skilled the fakers have become and the various tricks they use. The past decade has wrought many changes in the market. It has been volatile. Many of the pieces I procured earlier are simply no longer available. It can make me somewhat gloomy to part with them, but I was allowed hold them and sometimes that is enough.
Nearly all of the pieces listed on either site are from earlier acquisitions. What you read is what you get. I am very straightforward in my descriptions and my �dreamy language�. (I love to write and I love words, whether I have any skill or otherwise.) Occasionally a piece that was recently acquired will be listed with no claim otherwise. If I list a piece as having been with me for six or eight or ten years, this is precisely the case. I have cataloged 4,200 pieces of jade during the past decade. I record dimensions, material, source, date of acquisition and general first impressions. Sometimes I sit on a jade for several years in order to study it, and this has been more enlightening that I can say. However, in my heart I am not a collector � it is all about the trip.

Ruli
This could be Jadeite as well !!
Ernest

Dear Ernest,
I think they could be both Burmese white jades. When I first got them as gifts, the groves of the carvings were filled with some kind of black soot or dust as if they were antiques. I cleaned them out with a toothbrush and soak them in warm water to purge the impurities within the jades. My friend told me they were old pieces. I really like them.

Hi Ruli,

It is not proper to brush your jades with ordinary toothbrushes. If you really need to brush them use brushes with natural bristle. Tootbrushes are meant for brushing teeth (LOL).

Judy

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