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Subject:Collared Disc More Pics
Posted By: Kevin Martin Mon, May 19, 2008 IP:

Thank you for the previous comments. Here are some more pics of the disc. It is just under 8 inches across. It is made of stone, possibly jade.
Thank you.

Subject:Re: Collared Disc More Pics
Posted By: Anita Mui Tue, May 20, 2008

Dear Kevin

I can not say, the condition is too good to be genuince, but the workmanship and material is supurb.

Any modern tool marks found? it is slipery or non-slipery when you use your thumb to rub on it?

I saw Shang and Neolithic jades without any kind of depisits, alterations, whithening, just like yesterday made exhibited at HK museum of art before. This piece is convincingly authentic.

To fake the neat work like this, not cheap and not easy.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Subject:Jade disc for burial?
Posted By: Bill Thu, May 22, 2008

In the original thread of this collared disc posted by Kevin, Pierre said,

"Bill, the pic you posted here clearly shows the lime deposits between the circles, created by the hearth humidity during the thousands or so years of being burried.

I'm very sure it cannot be removed easily at all. Very good sign of age.

On the other hand, Kevin's disc doesn't show any such signs."

That is indeed a really very good oberseration and one that I have overlooked. Therefore without the presence of such weathering (or deposit or whatever you want to call it) resulted from contact with soil (or other environmental factors) during burial, it would be indeed difficult to confirm Kevin's collar to be archaic.

That is the same dilemma Anita faced in evaluating his disc:

On one hand she agrees that the workmanship and material are simply supberb and yet the lack of weathering ("the condition is too good to be" genuine) really confuses her.

I found these oberservatons of both Pierre and Anita were both very logical and reasonable and I believe they would be true most of the time.

But please allow me be the Devil's advocate. Where did it say that jade Bi (jade disc, jade disk) are supposed to be used for burial?

If I remember correctly, there are six types of jade carvings in ancient China, the top two are jade Bi and jade cong (tsung). Jade bi are used for making offering (or sacrifice) to the sky (or heaven) while jade congs are used for making sacrifice to the earth.

Therefore jade bi were never intended for burials until Han dynasty when such bi became much more abundant and the Han dynasty people put a lot of important in extravagant burial. It is a also possible jade bi from earlier dynasties were being used in burial during Han or later dynasties and that may be why we would see Shang bi found in burial. However, during Shang dynasty, jade bi were not intended for burials. Now, on the other hands, one would find more congs in burial.

Now of course I can be wrong, but it would be an interesting topic for jade collectors to discuss, would it?


Subject:Re: Jade disc for burial?
Posted By: pierrevdw Thu, May 22, 2008

Hi Bill,

That this piece, or others, are made for burial or not is another story.

Old pieces are found deep in the ground, water or caves, whatever their use is.
If this disc was not made to follow it's owner to the coffin, it would still be burried and exposed when archeologist are digging some old sites.

I sometime goes around construction sites and have evaluate the deepness, according to the period of the shards I found.
In general, Qing dy, up to 2 metres deep, Ming deeper etc, etc...
I found some Tang dy shards at around 4 metres and a Han brick at about 5.
This is valid for the area where I live. Of course the deepness will depend of the nature of the soil of the area.

But yes, let's be LOGIC, such old pieces are not kept on someone mantelpiece for thousand of years.

Have a nice day,
Pierre. | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |