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Subject:da ming xuan de incense burner
Posted By: kd Sat, Jun 21, 2008 IP: 82.82.128.227

Hi,
I�ve got a nice bronze incense burner with the xuan de mark. A stylisticly similar one is in the Nanjing museum I believe. How can I tell whether the one I have is old, older or even of the period? Do I have to do a metallurigal testing?
Any help appreciated!
regards
kd







Subject:Re: da ming xuan de incense burner
Posted By: PyroManiac Mon, Jun 23, 2008

Most of these censers are if not new fakes are orginally from the 18th and 19th century and not from the Xuande period.

Subject:Re: da ming xuan de incense burner
Posted By: Ian Finer Mon, Jun 23, 2008

Your censer is definitely not of the Xuande period 1426-1435 and the mark is apochryfal. This mark is on a majority of censers of this type and does not imply that they were fakes at the time they were made but in deference to the emperor of an earlier period. These censers are notoriously hard to date as they have been produced throughout the centuries. It is unlikely to be a modern fake as it has been polished. It could be 18th or 19th century. Leave it outside for a few years and it will repatinate.

Subject:Re: da ming xuan de incense burner
Posted By: hallo Mon, Jun 23, 2008

XuanDe incense burner are bronze alloy usually with high level of mercury. It should not oxidize unless buried. Yours does not appear to be a burial pot and yet it oxidized green...

This looks like brass to me.

Subject:Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: pipane Thu, Jun 26, 2008


I bought this small bronze incense burner few years ago because I found it was very good looking. it looks authentic but I am not a specialist. The bronze surface shows patina but also dirt. It seems to be gold leaf decorated.

-is it possible to date it? Ming? Qing Dynasty?

-how can I "clean" the dirt without damaging its patina?

Thank you for your help.

Regards,







Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: hallo Thu, Jun 26, 2008

My understanding is that only some few thousand original were ever made. Gold leafing is a good sign. If you look into museum pieces the XuanDe incense burner are extremely detailed.

There are copies from all over the ages. Good copies are impossible to date correctly. Late Qing onces were badly cast and thus much more easier.


Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: kd Mon, Jun 30, 2008

Thank you all for your opinions. So if there is no way to date those burner by comparing styles - I assume modern reproductions can also be very detailed - where does that lead us to?
If one detects mercury in the bronze alloy - would that be a proof of authenticity?
Has anyone done research in this field yet? I know that this was done e.g. with coins from Greece. They were able to pinpoint the silvermine on a certain island.
regards
kd

Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: hallo Mon, Jul 07, 2008

XuanDe burners are made in the same foundry in batches to the order of the emperor. The composition of the metal should be similar.

It is said the Ming emperor Xuande was interested in Shang dynasty bronze objects and decided to reproduce them. Thus they are well known and documented.

But Shang dynasty bronze objects are also reproduced by earlier Song dynasty due to their fascination with the bronze wares that was unearthed. Written documentation recoreded that song emperors accumulated some 20type and a total of 839 bronze artifacts. Most were reproduced by Song workshops.

To make matters worse bronze reproduction are not only made by the order of imperial decree but also by civilians. During Song dynasty civilian foundry that made bronze repos are located in Tai Shang area. Yuan dynasty in Hang Zhou and Qing dynasty is Su Zhou, Shanghai, Xian and Beijing.

The SuZhou made repos are known to be well made and have fooled many experts.

Now compound all of that together then dating bronze becomes extremely challenging and only be attempted by experts.

Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: kd Fri, Jul 11, 2008

OK, I give up. If there is no definite proof I can base my judgement on...
But if you happen to hear anything on metalurgical studies regarding antique bronzes, please let me know.
kind regards
kd

Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: Tim Mon, Apr 13, 2015

This is made around mid-qing period, 18th century based on the mark. Please email me at [email protected] if you want to sell it. Thanks.

Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: George Wed, Apr 29, 2015

I also have a censer that I aquired from an estate sale my neighbor had. His grandfather traveled to China lots over a 75 year time. He has passed away now, but I wish he had gotten more info of its provenance.
It appears to have Xuande stamp and an archaic bronze design. I was recently told by an appraiser that it appears to be from the Ming dynasty as a copy of a Shang/Zhou. I could consign it with them with an estimate auction value of $1500-$2000, but I was told by another appraiser from UK that if the piece is authentic that it would bring tens if not hundreds of thousands USD. But the encrustations concern him.
So like you, I'm lost..



Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: klaus Tue, May 05, 2015

Please post a photo of the base, traces of use are usually a good sign.

Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: George Wed, May 06, 2015

Here is the bottom



Subject:Re: Incense burner - Need help
Posted By: Tim Wed, May 06, 2015

The design concerns me too. A detailed picture of the mark would help.

Subject:Re: da ming xuan de incense burner
Posted By: C.L Sat, Aug 22, 2015

My grandmother has two incense burner that are brass (I think).
They were bought by her Aunt in late 1800.

My grandmothers aunt(1873-1950) was married to G. Withheld Guinness, who was for thirty years Doctor and Missionary in the Province of Honan.

They lived there during the Boxer Rebellion.
One of these incense burner (the smaller one) was hit by a bullet during the uprising. They shot through the windows and one got hit.. So a little bit of history is there in our censers.

They look to me, very much alike the ones above.
Could these be from the Honan region?
Anyone with knowledge who could tell us more about its history? :)

Thanks in advance.

1 small one, with bullet damage.
10 cm width on top
ca. 11,5 cm width (side)
ca. 5,5 cm height

1 Large one, with crack on side.
10,5 cm width on top
ca. 13.5 cm width (side)
ca. 6 cm height



URL Title :Photos of Honan incense burner.



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