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Can someone please help me with the period these Lokapala were made.

Link :http://goldentriangleantiques.com/four-antique-chinese-lokapala

If they were ceramic I wouldnt hesitate to say tang, But not familiar with camphor wood tomb guardians, I best leave this one to a mingai expert

Thank you for your response.

Not hundred percent sure that it is camphor wood, but has a slight odour similar to camphor wood.

Can you please clarify for me the word Mingai, I have googled it, but seems to refer to oriental cuisine. I am unfamiliar with this terminology.

Thank you once again for your response.



URL Title :Four antique Chinese Lokapala

Hi Maureen,

As with most items it is difficult to judge from photos. I do have my reservations about these items as similar ones are produced by the truckloads in China. Even if they were 19th Century one would expect some breakage and or loss of the more fragile parts like the feet or hands - all four seem in very good condition and that is rather unusual, but not impossible. The pale yellow and blue pigment also looks like the many reproductions available in China and the sharp vermillion red around the mouth of one just does not look right. Best would be if you could take some photos of the base/bottom of a figure and post that on the forum.
My gut says no but I could be wrong.

Best
JJ

Thank you for your response and ideas on these four guys.

On closer inspection I would think it is likely that the feet on all four figures have been replaced at some point and one hand on one figure also replaced.

I have put the pictures of the base of all figures on the site in which you viewed these figures.

Regards,
Maureen

URL Title :four antique chinese lokopala

One has to be very careful with these wooden figurines as there are a lot fakes and its easy to create this aged look. It looks like some of the feet and hands were replaced and then glued on - this may or may not be a good thing. Sometimes repairs at least can indicate the piece is old (but not always).

Thank you for your suggestions.

Hands and feet look like the same wood, only one hand is separated from the body on one figure. However, on all figures the feet are separate pieces, it is possible that at some point one hand and the feet have been replaced, thank you for pointing that out to me. On closer inspection the carving of the feet are not in line with the carving of the rest of the figure and are slightly different colour.

URL Title :four antique chinese lokapala

Hi Maureen,

When I first started collecting / dealing I use to get very frustrated with others saying that they cant judge from photos and I now understand that statement.
Roger made a valid point about the hands and feet, but we need to remember that hands and feet were often carved seperately and applied afterwards by means of wooden or metal pins - resulting in many antique figures surviving without hands and or feet.
What troubles me on figure 3 is the following - the raised right hand seems to be relatively new, judging from the front, yet from the back the tone of the yellow pigment is in keeping with the pigment arount the elbow ... that worries me. Still it could be that the figures were given a "facelift" but that does not explain the even dust and dirt. I also feel that should these figures once lived in a temple etc they should show more areas of black due to smoke and handling.
The undersides look better than what I expected, however the holes look odd.... have a look for traces of rust etc in the holes, this could suggest that they were once fixed to anoter base... if not it could be marks left by a machine i.e to grip onto the wood while excess wood was turned away on a lathe.... not much but I hope this helps a bit.

Best
JJ

Thankyou for your views on these pieces, much appreciated. I have been out of town with no access to email, so sorry for taking such a long time to respond.

Regards
Maureen

Sometimes with peoples expectations you cannot win.... If a piece is badly mauled and worn they say it has been artificially aged, if it is in A1 condition they say it was obviously produced yesterday!! The truth varies so much case to case I dont see how anyone feels they can generalise... Look at some of the tang tomb ceramics in museums (many from ex-private collections)and the pieces in top retailers like baccratt and others, the pieces look fresh out the kiln, this is due to good quality pieces and highest quality restoration.... They can cost many thousands of pounds, then you have the more battered tomb guardians- lacking glaze, missing parts, I have seen such earth spirit pairs go for £500.... Which are genuine ?--possiby both-Possibly neither- Even TL testing can be fooled if a forger is ingenious enough... All you can do is research for any glaring anachronisms, see if the damage is consistent with decades of daily wear (E.G- There is a guy on youtube proudly showing off a piece of ming giltwood statuary,the gilding IS worn, but only in hidden away areas that do not ruin its looks!! heehee) remember weathering should be in exposed fragile areas that would be prone to damage...Apply common sense and dont buy a story. just appraise the object in an unbiased way, on its looks alone.. Good luck

FYI.... Seems I may have been right to suggest tang style(the armour and facial expression did it for me)....Also there are records of wood guardians being used in graves protected from the elements in caves etc in western china (image attached)The museum Guimet in france has some,
On a side note I have looked over this antique dealers stuff before, although I wouldnt guarantee all his stuff is genuine, most looks pretty convincing.... (But I am sure even the most reputable dealers have a few "pups")

Adam,

I dont believe anyone is trying to generalise the subject or subject-matter here... but it is not uncommon to make comparative suggestions when looking at images. The problem with the Lokapala under discussion is that they are not badly damaged nor are they in "A1 condition" as you put it. I agree with your statement on common sense, but sense is not always common...
I deal in early Oriental art and if these items were presented to me I would decline them for various reasons. I travel to the East often, and from what I understand Roger lives in China, and I assure you, if you go to markets in China you can buy virtually identical images by the dozen. Based on common sense I go further:

1. Very unusual for 4 sculptures to survive in a group.
2. Very unusual that all the damage on the images are VERTICAL (here I refer to the chipping on the robes etc.) there is no damage evident in a horizontal line - strange natural wear... this does however explain wood exposed to acid and fresh wood chipping when exposed to machine carving.
3. Very unusual that the crowns on 3 figures are damaged or repaired yet the very vulnerable top-knots are intact, unless they all fell off a table in the same direction (which is possible yet unlikely) - even more unusual that the original selled decided to repair some crowns but not others (here they could have run out of wood or time I suppose)
4. Very unusual that all four figures show clear horizontal wear on their bottoms (rearends)....

Common sense aside the pigment colour is WRONG to my eye. The museum example you posted clearly exhibits layers of painted medium not powdered pigment.

Best
JJ

Although forms of lokapala are used in temples this type from the tang dynasty were a funerary item..
Tang lokopala are tomb guardians...
And furthermore wood was used in places where moisture would be less of a problem- such as cave burials etc -Hence negating the need for ceramics--- Also I dont see any sign of powdered pigments on her examples...

When in an earlier post you referred to reproduction carvings of high quality freely available in chinese markets, were you refering to ones like your post here a little while ago?

see attached image

You claim it is over 300 years old (Circa 1700), yet to me this appears near brand new, for all the same reasons yourself and I have listed above..

Show how subjective antiques can be- You say that you would decline to buy this ladies nice looking lokapala,that seem, to me, to be far superior in age and authenticity, yet you happily purchased this unidentified carving (and accepted its 300+ year age as true, seemingly without question)
A position I find extremely confusing!

I would doubt it is any more than 50 years and perhaps newer...

I am going to wade into this carefully with two short comments:

The first is that last year I was running a well known antiques gallery in Hong Kong for a business partner. Its been there for 20 years and is fairly established. Essentially they would be considered a "reputable source." Of course in this business everyone has certain things they collect and in this case theirs was a fairly large collection of stone and wooden statuary. Some were genuine antiques, where as others we fakes. I specifically say fakes as a) they were in the same area as the real ones and b) it was never presented as such to a customer unless they were savvy enough to know on their own. That sort of deception was a problem for me and one reason I ceased dealing with that particular business partner.

The second is last week a customer of mine from Japan told me of how she bought several larger wooden statues from another established reputable dealer. About two months later was in an antique market in Southern China and came across a vendor with a whole warehouse of the very same identical statues. This is a very common story.

My point is that there are a lot of copies of these out in the market. Some just don't know that they are copies. Others know and are simply profit oriented. So tons of skepticism along with the geeky sort of analysis that is occurring here is a healthy thing with these items.

I have attached a link to some images. Some are real and others are pretty convincing (and expensive) fakes.



URL Title :Can you spot the fakes...?

Thank you Roger for your valued comments, have not had access to email for the past 10 days so was pleasantly surprised to see the number of replies on the forum regarding these lokapalas. When I get a chance to look at them again I have a lot to look for, thanks to all the comments on the forum.

Regards,
Maureen

Hi Maureen, there are a lot of such forgery in China that almost look like the real thing. They even go to the extend of gluing up pieces of rotted and termite wood such that the base and piece looks chewed up and ancient. They also age the piece by combing it with a metal rake such that the grains will stick out. There is usually evidence of the surface paint being scraped. The worm holes do not match the pattern of infestation as it is carved over a piece of old wood that has already been rotted, rather than being carved and than being infested. Sometimes they appear like several pieces of rotted wood being glued together by epoxy and than sculptured wrapped with old cloth to appear ming and than plastered with white plaster before being colored and than it is racked with a metal blade age the sculpture, such that the grains appeared raised. Old pieces are generally light and do not have raised grains unless they are very very old like Song or earlier.

Adam,

This will be my last response on this topic too, but after your post in " Jade Item " Aug 14, I feel that I have to respond as you keep on hammering on my lack of contribution on the Lokapala post in contrast to yours.

I again state that I will not easily shout "new" or "authentic" based on images alone, but I have made it pretty clear that I think the items in question here are contemporary.

You try and belittle what I said in this particular post (in your Aug 23 post under Jade Item)by stating that I am unaware of the function of Lokapala - they are not Temple items yet in your own post in this specific thread on Aug 22 you yourself say that Lokapala were placed in Temples, a real contradiction of your own opinion.

I feel it is important to look at stylistic execution of images when one can't handle the item in question and this is what I tried to indicate from the beginning.

I will not repeat what I said earlier but will add the following:

Lokapala means Loka - world - and Pala - Protector - and in pre Buddhist context they were the four universal protectors. Integrated into Buddhism Lokapala were placed in TEMPLES, tombs and cave dwellings etc. This bit of History is very important to consider when you aim to discuss an image of a Lokapala because their roles as Protectors are important.

You keep on saying that the four images are Tang Lokapala and I am saying to you they are NOT for the following STYLISTIC reasons:

1. TANG Lokapala are depicted STANDING Adam, Why? because they are usually PROTECTORS of Buddha and in Tombs they usually guard crucial points such as entrances. Deities stand and sit, disciples kneel or sit, but PROTECTORS stand. Asian Artists did not depict important figures such as Lokapala lolling on their backsides. That should be the first red light with these images. And NO I am not saying that it is impossible to have a seated guarding (earth spirits sit)and I suppose Lokapala could too although I have never handled an authentic one in 20 years.

2. Adam, secondly Lokapala should be fitted with shin guards, and other armor such as stomach and breast plates (please refer to your image that you posted to confirm) as it is difficult to protect and fight when you have to run around in a long flowing robe. That should be red light number two.

3. The stylistic execution of the jewellery and crowns hover between Sui, Northern Qi, Tang and Song pointing to a very confused Tang artist. Further they are seated on Root wood stools, a style that became popular in the Qing Dynasty - this amalgamation of styles is red light number three.

4. You say that you see no signs of powdered pigment. Adam, pigment is a colored powder mixed into various substances to create various mediums. The yellow, vermillion and pistachio clearly shown is PIGMENT. Pigment is a term used within my idiotic circle to refer to color and it is generally excepted that people with a little bit of knowledge will be able to determine what base pigment is used depending on the medium it is applied to. I chose powdered pigment as reproductions are finished in two phases: first pigment is mixed with water and a little binding medium which is applied in recessed areas in a thick layer, this is then heated and scraped with a wire brush. A second coat of pigment and water is then washed over, and it is this layer that is easily wiped away while settling in small grooves. Unfortunately, or fortunately, this exposes later carving lines such as the lines I pointed out on the bottoms of the figures. Red light number four.

5. As you are an expert on Tang Lokapala I can't believe that you overlooked the presence of demons. Yes I am looking for demons, most Tang Lokapala show at least two of the four with a demon trampled under the foot - again this is to put fear into other demons and show the power of a Lokapala - Adam, this is why the guys wear boots!!. Red Light number Five.

6. I expected you to go foraging through my posts to try and make a point. Thank you for placing my wooden carving within this post. You made another post saying that this particular image is new and I still maintain it is 18th Century. You said that LEE is one of the few people you trust on the forum and LEE confirmed some valid points regarding my wooden carving: a; due to the age my carving weighs virtually nothing and is paper light and b: the grain is even and not scraped away artificially and c: please look at the wear on the other images which is consistent with wear associated with a wood carving of this period, province and wood type. I do not have to tell you what province it is from nor do I have to give you the genus of wood as I am sure you know....?

Lastly I never said the figure was 1700 .... Any person moving within Chinese circles would no it is EXTREMELY IGNORANT AND TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE to use the term CIRCA and a specific date unless a piece is inscribed.

Please have a look at my response on the comment you made on the Qing Dynasty Temple Vase posted by Greg, hopefully you learn something there.

Like I said I will no longer entertain posts from you as some people are totally closed to polite interaction.

JJ

I would say there are a couple of pieces there worth a closer look, but would not buy anything without some further testing...
For the record, the pieces she posted looked far better than all those given exmples... Not proof of authenticity maybe, but worthy a of closer look..
To my mind none of those pieces had the correct facial fierceness of tang sculpture, but hers did...

I enclose a few images,
The two seated are from the cultural china website, the other the shanghai museum,
The lokapala trampling deer is from the metropolitan museum of art..

To clarify... Crush demons--------sometimes
Crush earth spirits-Never

I have seen Lokapala that are crushing earthspirits but doubt they are genuine, as doesnot fit with ritual context..

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