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Subject:A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), NEOLITHIC PERIOD??
Posted By: Jac Sat, Feb 22, 2014 IP: 218.212.242.167

Take a close look at this jade ritual notched disc for sale with a USD 80,000 to 100,000 price estimate, in an upcoming Sotheby auction on 18 Mar 2014 in New York:

http://www.sothebys.com/it/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-n09116/lot.123.html

This notched disc was sold by Christie's on 6 June 2000 in
London for £5,288 which means the asking price has increased tenfold:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=1791179

If this notched disc were posted here by an unknown jade collector for identification or enjoyment, how would the the jade experts in this forum react/comment?

This notched disc looked like it is made of poor material with poor workmanship and patches of calcification to the surface that appears to be unnatural, to my eyes.


Link :A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI)


Subject:Re: A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), NEOLITHIC PERIOD??
Posted By: Jac Mon, Feb 24, 2014

Take a closer look at the rest of the jades offered for sale in this auction, Lot 114 to 164.

http://www.sothebys.com/it/auctions/2014/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-n09116.html#&i=0

Which one of these 50 lots of jades do you believed could possibly be traced to neolithic tomb excavation? None, in my opinion.

Take a look at the other two notched discs offered for sale - Lot 125 and Lot 126.

Lot 125 -
http://www.sothebys.com/it/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-n09116/lot.125.html

Lot 126 -
http://www.sothebys.com/it/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-n09116/lot.126.html

So many genuine neolithic jade notched disc (Xuanji) in the hands of private collector? A single auction can have 3 Xuanji for sale? Didn't someone here in this forum commented that there were just 300 Hongshan Culture excavated jades and another 3 million in the world market?

Take a look at Lot 154 - A JADE DISC (BI) EASTERN ZHOU DYNASTY.

http://www.sothebys.com/it/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-n09116/lot.154.html

This poorly made Bi can be used as a reference for artificial staining, in my opinion.


URL Title :Fine Chinese Ceramics & Works of Art


Subject:Re: A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), NEOLITHIC PERIOD??
Posted By: Daniel Sun, Feb 23, 2014

Sotheby's and Christie's have a pretty strict guideline towards provenance with Chinese pieces so if this piece is listed by them, it can most likely trace its history to a documented neolithic tomb excavation which is why it could fetch a higher price. In 10 years the price of Chinese antiquities has exponentially skyrocketed to insane levels (in accordance to the Chinese economy) so I dont find it that shocking the piece is now valued at such a level. In the future I am certain they will continue as long as the Chinese economy follows.

All that aside, I am far from an expert on jade however the piece in my opinion looks well done, but I would consider it more utilitarian than ritualistic though. I dont feel the material is a poor material. Im more surprised at the size of the piece, it makes me wonder what purpose it held!

Subject:Re: A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), NEOLITHIC PERIOD??
Posted By: adam Mon, Feb 24, 2014

PROVENANCE AT THE TOP AUCTIONS MEANS NO SUCH THING!!...LAST TIME I ENTERED SOME ITEMS THE RULES WERE: SONG-QING no provenance required
TANG and earlier need proof of purchase prior to 1982.
Unless they have stated evidence preceding this date, assume that they only have history from 1982...PS.. provenance doesn't mean details of excavation, only proof of purchase from before a certain date (Excavated items rarely come on to the private market)

Subject:Re: A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), NEOLITHIC PERIOD??
Posted By: LEE Tue, Feb 25, 2014

The piece appears to have the right carving technique and aging process. take a look at the area near the hole in the center it is of a whiter shade, like a halo. There are surface spot calcification that extends into the jade. There are root tracks. 2 parallel possibly string cut marks. The quality of the material in my opinion isn't as important as the authenticity of the antiquity. The only piece I suspect is modern later than 1900s, from the photos is lot 147 where the cut on the grooves have perpendicular tool marks, which could be cut with a rotating round diamond drill such grooves should be cut by ancient disc with tool marks parallel to the cut. There is a Han dynasty finial of a bird that is very interesting and has similarity to a large Han dynasty duck matt weight I bought from Christies King Street as few years ago marked as Ming.

Subject:3 JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), From Museums
Posted By: Jac Wed, Feb 26, 2014

Three notched discs from museums that are similar to the one offered for sale in the Sotheby's auction (Lot 123) are presented below for comparison.

The first picture below is a notched disc from Royal Museums of Art and History, Brussels.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Bruxelles_Disque_jade_Xuanji_02_10_2011_B.jpg

The middle photo is that of a notched disc from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Diameter 15.6 cm.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/42839?img=1

The bottom photo is from The Smithsonian Museums of Asian Art. Diameter 14.5cm.

http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/singleObject.cfm?ObjectNumber=S1987.932

By comparison, even an amateur collector like myself could tell that the form of the Lot 123 notched disc does not appear to be correct.

It does not appear to be geometric, unlike the ones from the museums. Likely due to poor workmanship form an amateur forger, in my opinion.

The tooth on the far left and right side of each of the three set of serrated teeth appears to be pointed at the wrong direction, compared to the ones from the museums.

Take a closer look at the shape of each of the three set of teeth on the Lot 123 notched disc - are they uniformly or haphazardly done?

The two parallel horizontal lines across the lower part of the disc as seen on the right picture of Lot 123 does not look like string cut marks as they appear above and not below the patches of calcified spots. These lines appear to have been incised after the appearance of the unnatural calcified spots.

If the brown color notched disc is for utilitarian purposes, it could possibly be used as a pizza cutter.








URL Title :A Notched Disc from Royal Museums of Art and History, Brussels


Subject:Re: 3 JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), From Museums
Posted By: John R Thu, Feb 27, 2014

Jac,
You probably noticed that the Sotheby's disc
was once in the collection of Berthold Laufer.
You can own his important 400+ page work on jade
for no charge at
http://www.jstor.org/stable/29782122?origin=JSTOR-pdf
On page 106 you will see a diagram and a proposed
explanation of its purpose.

Subject:Re: 3 JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), From Museums
Posted By: Jac Fri, Feb 28, 2014

Hi John,

I have never heard of Berthold Laufer and do not know anything about him prior to your lead to the free electronic copy of his book titled JADE: A STUDY IN CHINESE ARCHAEOLOGY AND RELIGION.

Thanks for sharing information on a proposed use of notched discs as an astronomical instrument.

I started studying/researching archaic jades only recently, from April 2013 after I starting a thread on Hongshan Culture jades in this forum.

I do not have vast knowledge on archaic jades and I do not own any jade books. All the academic knowledge on jades that I have are obtained from the internet.

Do excuse my ignorance should you find any mistakes in what I have written in this forum.

Subject:Re: 3 JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), From Museums
Posted By: adam Sun, Mar 02, 2014

I would be a bit careful with the books that date to so long ago...many facts have been disproved...
The classic is the neolithic jade called a hoof jade for years and presumed to be a hair ornament...Recent discoveries have now proved it is a tube for drawing lots from which to divine the future!!
Many other discrepancies such as dates that tuo drills first used, etc, are all outdated

Subject:Re: 3 JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), From Museums
Posted By: Super Sun, Mar 02, 2014

Despite your previous interesting comments and pictures posted by you in your Hongshan thread in this forum, I must commend your recent effort in starting some serious jade discussions and I commend John R's willingness in assisting you. I first heard of Laufer was from reading Prof. S. Howard Hansford's jade books (e.g. Chinese Jade Carvings; Chinese Carved Jades) when he quoted from Laufer's works repeatedly. It may not be a bad idea to collect some of his books/articles and those of Prof. Hansford. Another good reference jade book may be "Chinese Jade Throughout the Ages" written by Stanley Charles Knott. I was amazed by your honesty and courage in making the statement: "All the academic knowledge on jades that I have are obtained from the internet." I believe quite a few of us might have started our jade collecting that way, many still stayed the same but a few of us might have progressed. I feel that you may be on a turning point. Sadly, one of my best friends, although very smart, still believes the US$ 25,000 Hongshan/Neolithic jade collections he purchased mostly from eBay is worth about half a million dollars, he also wrote a book with photos of his jade collection in it, selling the book at one time on Amazon.com
I saw many other so called jade experts who never study Chese jades in depth, collecting most of their "archaic" jades from internet and wrote books in teaching others in how to accumulate a large authentic jade collection from internet. I believe you are on the right track in learning more about what you love - jade. The only thing I may want to warn you is that some time after you learn more about what you collect, you may be disappointed in finding out that it may be impossible for one to acquire any Neolithic or archaic jade in one's life time unless one has the knowledge, a deep pocket plus some luck. Now, some jade books by themselves are collectibles. I have not purchased any significant jade pieces in the past few years. Spending a lot of money in any jade purchases can be very risky business considering there are so many rich Chinese Mainland China pushed up prices of jade carvings, some time to unrealistic level. When the bubble bursts in China, the market will plummet. IMHO, we will be better off collecting Qing dynasty Hetain or bi yu (dark green jade) jade carvings.

Subject:$25 Jade Disc With 2 Chilongs, Archaic??
Posted By: Jac Sun, Mar 09, 2014

Hi Super,

Thank you for your effort to warn me that it may be impossible for one to acquire any Neolithic or archaic jade in one's life time unless one has the knowledge, a deep pocket plus some luck.

I just bought a jade disc (Bi) with 2 chilongs for S$25 from the Sunday flea market here in Singapore this morning. Could you take a look at this Bi and advise if it is archaic or modern.

This Bi has a diameter of 6.2cm. The material is not opaque as I see a fluorescent glow when I shine a light through it. As you can see from the pictures below, this Bi looks like it has just been unearthed.

Sharper pictures in the attached Dropbox folder:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2ljvr14511zodc4/K1Z6bhEcQ0

Thank you in advance for your opinions and contributions.








URL Title :Bi With Two Chilongs


Subject:Re: $25 Jade Disc With 2 Chilongs, Archaic??
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Mon, Mar 10, 2014

This sure has a "dead" look to it, no life at all. Another pointer, if it is that dirty, beware !!!This one shows what a modern "copy" looks like.
Ernest

Subject:Re: $25 Jade Disc With 2 Chilongs, Archaic??
Posted By: Super Sun, Mar 30, 2014

Hi, Jac:

I do not believe I am good enough or courageous enough to examine any jade pieces with low resolution pictures and attribute their ages. Once, a real jade expert who was invited to study and examine Emperor Qianlong's seven archer's rings (that sold for millions of US dollars) said it was difficult enough to attribute any jade pieces even if one can handle them in person and trying to attribute them with pictures alone will be foolhardy. He absolutely refused to render his opinions on any jade pieces based on pictures alone. While I cannot rule out the possibility that one may be able to discover some hidden "jade treasures" in flea market, but the probability of being to do so is no better than a gambler who can continue to win in a casino.

I simply do not like the appearance or the material of your piece posted here. Do you really believe it is beautiful?

Many collectors believe authentic Honshan jades must have rugged and corroded looks, why?

Super

Subject:Re: $25 Jade Disc With 2 Chilongs, Archaic??
Posted By: Jac Mon, Mar 31, 2014

Hi Super,

I am not challenging your response, just a little confused when you mentioned "low resolution pictures".

I have provided pictures with the highest resolution. Click on the:

URL Title :Bi With Two Chilongs

at the bottom left corner of my post with the pictures of the small Bi with 2 chilongs. It will launch a new tab to a www.dropbox.com site that shows 4 pictures of the Bi.

Click on any of the photos and point your cursor to the icon with three dots on the bottom right corner of your computer screen, click "View original" and a very sharp and high resolution image will appear. Place your cursor over the image and you will see your cursor turn into a magnifying glass symbol. Click on the photo and you will see the sharpest and highest resolution photo ever posted in this forum.

I find this small Bi beautiful and fascinating but I do not know if it is archaic or modern. I asked the seller for another piece but she is unable to sell me another one. If there are two of the same kind, it is likely modern, from a workshop, current edition, perhaps molded from some type of resin. I have not seen anything like this in the past. Modern imitation Bi with chilongs, I have seen plenty. This one is different.

How do you know many collectors believe authentic Hongshan jades must have rugged and corroded looks? Are you one of the collectors with this belief? I do not belong to this group of collectors. I KNOW the best Hongshan Culture jades have the smoothest feel, like silk. You will not know what I mean unless you get to hold a genuine one.

Jac

Subject:20TH CENTURY JADE DISCS (BI)
Posted By: Jac Wed, Mar 05, 2014

Take a close look at the jade discs from this site to see what old fake neolithic Bi discs look like:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-chinese-jade-discs-bi-probably-20th-5494769-details.aspx

Can you see that the surface calcification and staining are not natural?

URL Title :TWO CHINESE JADE DISCS, BI, PROBABLY 20TH CENTURY


Subject:Western Han Dynasty Jade Sword Fittings - Part 1/2
Posted By: Jac Tue, Mar 18, 2014

Western Han dynasty jade sword fittings, from a museum, presented here to help the eyes to recognize genuine archaic jade artifacts.








Subject:Western Han Dynasty Jade Sword Fittings - Part 2/2
Posted By: Jac Tue, Mar 18, 2014

Western Han Dynasty Jade Sword Fittings:





Subject:Re: A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI), NEOLITHIC PERIOD??
Posted By: Jac Thu, Mar 20, 2014

Sold for USD 75,000.

Lot 123 - A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI) NEOLITHIC PERIOD

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-n09116/lot.123.html

Sotheby's Photos:






URL Title :A JADE RITUAL NOTCHED DISC (XUANJI) NEOLITHIC PERIOD



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