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Subject:Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Fri, Mar 28, 2014 IP: 24.180.194.12

First Hard-stone I've put here. The GONG may go off soon :+)

I would appreciate substantiated opinions w/ photos explaining your reason for your opinion. ( why it's modern, Why it might be old & how old ...ETC)

This is the oddest piece I have as the others all came from a NYC auction the mid 1970s.

Hardness .... 6+

SG is............ 3.03

This appears to be a mottled Nephrite that has some impurities, Colors include, White, Gray, Black, & browns.

Mainly I am wanting your opinion on Style of Dragons & Phoenix which are slightly raised from the main plane of the body( 0.5mm), opinions on tool marks, overall shape etc.

It is a small lidded vessel. It is NOT perfectly symmetrical , One shoulder being slightly higher and looking straight down it is oval shaped. Does have an area of old restoration.

Thanks in advance, M

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Sat, Mar 29, 2014

Apologies , photos to follow

Update. Redid the SG test 2x's an ave is 2.95. I'll attempt to attach some pics.

Actual color is closer to the last close up photo. More white gray & some russet than yellowish.

In the color. A slight hue of green in the gray and looks yellowish in its translucency w a bright light. The Polish is greasy but yet a metallic like glass ... As nephrite should be.



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Sat, Mar 29, 2014

Pics



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Sat, Mar 29, 2014

Another photo



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Sat, Mar 29, 2014

Pic



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Sun, Mar 30, 2014

Chicken Bone ( Burnt Jade)

What's anyones opinion on age?

Been delving into research, I think it's a good specimen, & appears to be old. The Dragon & Phoenix are drawn well. The overall shape is especially pleasing taking on the archaic HU bronze shape. The foot has a nice angle and the top has an arced flare.

The vessel is nicely hollowed out and the bottom has a nice recessed footed area as well.

I tried to attach photos , Thanks, M

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Mon, Mar 31, 2014

I don't understand the photo size requirements, Sorry, Hopefully this full shot w/out the lid will be a bigger photo



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Corey Sat, Apr 05, 2014

Ming dynasty archaistic perhaps?

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: adam Sun, Apr 06, 2014

The use of chickenbone "Burnt" jade and dark staining is meant to give the impression of a Ming piece...However the overall feel is not ming and points to a manufacture around 1900.....Sure I have seen a simiar piece somewhere ...will post again...Adam

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Adam Sun, Apr 06, 2014

Found it...I would take the valuation with a pinch of salt...I would say 2000-3000 would be a reasonable result...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201105A08.html



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Mon, Apr 07, 2014

I thank you both Adam & Corey. Interestingly I did see that ARS video w/ Lark Mason previously. The vessel shown in the video is a classic archaic revival w/ both its shape and style of surface design. Why I'm a little perplexed by my vessel is the overall design. It seems "classical", All the archaic revival pieces have archaic surface designs as well. Possibly I can post the tubular drill marks (@ least 2 different sizes) that are on mine that point to an earlier designation. The etched grooves that make the design up are well done as you can see.

After calling this chicken-bone originally, I think differently now. It is a darker nephrite. I'll try to post a pic of the bottom and some tooling marks.

Thanks again, Mark



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Mon, Apr 07, 2014

Another photo - bottom



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Mon, Apr 07, 2014

Another photo

The underside of the lid.

I just wanted to add that the vessel is well hollowed out and follows the contour. Please note how the bottom is saldo nicely finished.



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Corey Tue, Apr 08, 2014

It's a good study object. How long have you been collecting?

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Wed, Apr 09, 2014

Thank you Corey,

My collection has "layers" of accession. Some items for several gens, then the 70's & then since I 've been young I've collected everything under the sun.

I hope another photo isn't overkill but this shows tool additional tool-marks.



Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Corey Wed, Apr 09, 2014

I din't know that archaistic jade of the Ming dynasty was copied around 1900. The mottling of the jade that adam posted looks natural btw, while it looks as it could be artificially made in the one you have, but this was also made in the ming period.

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Wed, Apr 16, 2014

Additional Photos







Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: LEE Thu, Aug 14, 2014

Hi Mark, your jade vase is old possibly ming from the tool marks. the tubular drill mark on the bottom of the vase is a good sign as well as the string cut mark on the reticulated area with a drill boring hole on your other photo shows that the item was cut using the old technique which was used until the end of the ching dynasty. The black inclusion is due to the jade being roasted in house fire or purposely roasted in a bon fire to create the effect. lots of pieces of jade in the Palace museum in beijing has these effect either from palace fires or from roasting the jade in wood fire. it is hard to tell the difference else. There is also evidence of chipping and wear on your piece so it probably dates to the ming but there were also replica of these in the early and late ching.

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Fri, Aug 15, 2014

Thank you Lee for your input, Appreciate it.

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Super Sun, Apr 13, 2014

Please allow me to put in my two cents.

How did you test its MOH hardness and obtain a 6+?

I was surprised to see you first posted its S.G. as 3.03 because it is not easy to find too many nephrite jades with such a high S.G. and then I saw you corrected it to 2.95. Please understand high S.G. does not necessarily indicate the quality of nephrite jade. The only question with a large hollow piece like this is it would be indeed difficult to measure its weight in water accurately (may includee the weight of water inside it if it was placed upward when it was immersed in water) and therefore the S.G. may not be accurate. Also, the spring scale used to weigh it has to be high quality and extremely accurate in order to obtain accurate weight.

No pun intended. I once tried to scratch a glass piece but its surface was so slippery, I could not even scratch it. You may want to perform scratch test on its bottom.

Your piece appears to have a greenish tint beneath its surface. Therefore its color may or may not be natural. I cannot say for sure. I do not know what type of nephrite it could be because Hetain jade or bai yu (dark green nephrite jade) do not look like this. Can it be bowenite? S.G. will be the key.

Judging by the half finished arc on its bottom, looks like it was made with a manual powered tu, before electric carving tools were used.

However, those carving lines all over its surface, to me, did not really add much aesthetic quality to it.

It was quite strange that you did not hear from either Lee or Dave.

Super

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Tue, Apr 15, 2014

Hello Super

Thank you for your interest in this vessel.

Please tell Dave and Lee to look at this or anyone else who is knowledgeable w/ Nephrite and NON-Archaic designs.

Forgive me on the initial SG of this item ...My scale is not as good as my Fathers' who since has given me his triple beam balance OHAUS scale. Double bonus as he is a retired Petro. Geologist! Unfortunately being in his late 80's his eyesight is not great :+(

I can confirm the Specific gravity of the main vessel at 2.94. It did not change as I submerged it in water upside down or right side up. The important factor is to make sure all the air is out of the vessel as this will change the SG. So no trapped air. The vessel weighs 530.2 gr. dry .... wether on the scale or suspended in air with a fine line. ( You mentioned the water inside the vessel will give a bad reading...this is not true as I did this upright and upside down). I also did the test w/ the water tank on the scale and then weighed the water w/ the submerged vessel...same result. I did the test that Mr. Eric J. Hoffman shows on his website.

To confirm the SG, I also tested the lid... this came out at 2.956

The difference in my opinion is the lid is more pure as the main vessel has more noticeable impurities and also a tiny repair w/ a lighter material.

Facts... Vessel (w/out lid)...... Dry weight .... 530.2gr. & in water 349.8gr ..... SG.....2.94
Lid..............................Dry weight,,,,,,,,47.3gr. & in water 31.3gr. ..... SG ...2.956

Hardness... 6+.... This gouges Plate Glass & Stainless Steel. Believe it or not I have some opals and this put a scratch in a white opal & the Opal scratches the glass. This vessel lightly scratched a pair of old steel Soligen Germany scissors by D. Peres. I even tried scratching the vessel w/ a small steel screwdriver that I use to tighten glasses...will not scratch this vessel. This Vessel also scratched an old quality jacknife made by M. KLEIN & Sons of Chicago. I will have to say the main vessel has a few small spots of some impurities that are softer than the nephrite itself. If I estimated the amount of impurities I would say 3%...Just a guess. Interestingly, the carver had issues with the cross grain of the vessel where it runs tight perpendicular as it is looks like it may have been even harder at the cross grain...this may be confusing and I will add a photo of what I mean by this, This may be a clue to something.

I discussed this w/ my Father in person and described the fibrous material...He said Tremolite. I am attaching some photos of the fibrous spots.

Though I mentioned this b4, it has several areas of old tooling marks, Hollow tube marks, Larger ones under the nicely carved out base and a large one on the underside of the Lid. The Lion or Foo Dog finial shows several areas of hand tooling on the underside of the animal...small hollow tubs and I believe wire cutting. I am by no means an expert....Just my observations.

I hope I've covered all the basis, Now I'm interested in finding the Era that this type of drawing was done on Nephrite.

Again, Please ask Dave and Lee to look at this as I've seen their postings and responses ...I would respect their opinion as I do yours. It's possible that they might think I am the same Mark who finished his posting by saying he was literally disposing of his jade that his parents bought....I am not he!

Oh, You mentioned that aesthetically the drawing was not pleasing to you... I respect that, however I love it and it has a powerful feel. The Phoenix, though smaller headed feels more powerful than the Dragon. It's so different from all the authentic Archaic Styles, revival editions and reproductions that I've seen.

Thank you Super,

Mark







Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Super Thu, Apr 17, 2014

Hi, Mark:

Thanks for your detailed responses and I can tell you are a very serious jade lover. If you are serious about testing the MOH hardness of your pieces, you may want to consider buying a set of MOH hardness picks from:

http://www.mineralab.com/Hardness.htm

(they are very nice people, you can order extra pick tips separately from them because sooner or later they would worn out. The ones you would need the most will be 5, 6 and 7).

(also, http://www.amazon.com/Deluxe-Hardness-Mineral-Identification-Wooden/dp/B000EGK51E)

they also have many other equipments for measuring S.G.

For measuring weights of jade items, I like to use the Pesola spring scales:

http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/search.asp?stext=pesola

https://www.pesola.com/e/

They were made in Switzerland and are the best spring scales money can buy. It will be cheaper if you can find one on eBay. For measuring small jade items, the 100 gm spring scale is the most useful. Larger items, the 1000 g or 2500 g. For really large items, the 10,000 g (10 kg)which can cost a fortune. I have quite a few of them.

Those spider web lines found on the surface of your jade vessel concerns me because usually such spider web lines were made artificially (by putting the item from very high temp to very low temp to cause those cracks.) Its brown color also concerns me because I do not believe it is natural. I believe this piece was originally green. I do not know where your nephrite material came from because it does not look like Hetian or Mount Kulun nephrite jade to me. That may mean it was imported (from outside China) In short, while it can be an older piece and can be made of nephrite but I do not really believe it is an archaic piece. Of course, since I am no jade expert I can be wrong, it would be indeed great to hear from Lee, Dave or Ernest and others.

Thank you for sharing it with us.

Super

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Sun, Apr 20, 2014

Hello Super,

Again thanks for the advice and I'll check into the different test objects. Again please ask the others to check this out. I would very much like their opinion.

So this may be a later nephrite object from 1900 or could this also be an earlier price when good quality nephrite was hard to come by because of instability in the government?

My response was long but of you or anyone know the term " "DEAD OAK LEAF" what they means when referring to jade? I happened to come across an item in a museum that dopes red to have the same color as mine that Aldo had stead of "DEAD OAK LEAF".

I'll be posting more of my items in the future.

One last ? I'm close to Chicago, Detriot & Cleveland which all have reflect able museums. Can anyone suggest a knowledgeable Academia or Asian Art Dealer in the Midwest USA?

Thanks again, Mark

Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: Mark Wed, Apr 16, 2014

Thanks for everyones response thus far!

Just wanted to clarify my Archaic reasoning. I do realize the general shape is Archaic being a HU shaped vessel. I'm particularly interested in knowing about the design style etched into the vessel...It just seems so classic (realistic) as opposed to the angular Archaic designs.

I also read where some types of Neophrite, especially the Yellow to Browns have iron oxides and hydroxides stains running along and w/in the grains. Just a thought.

Also...what is the term " DEAD OAK LEAF" mean when referring to nephrite? I have found one example of a "horn shaped" nephrite peice at the Met Museum that has curvilinear subject lines like mine ...It's given a dat of late Ming...early Quing. Accession Number: 02.18.335

Never enough photos, Another showing the well carved out bottom plus others.

Thanks again, Mark







Subject:Re: Nephrite Jade Chinese , Age? Tool Marks, raised Dragon Phoenix
Posted By: adam Wed, Aug 13, 2014

Dead oak leaf was just one material used to stain jade...The tannins give a dark brown, mercury fumes send nephrite black and ferrous oxides send red...Cant remember more off the top of my head


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