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Subject:Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: Roni Fri, Aug 15, 2014 IP: 58.169.103.177

Hello,
a shop is selling this jar as being from the Tang /Song period of manufacture and is known as painted Cizhou!!
Could anyone confirm this?
I would like to buy but am hesitant as price is high.
The jar measures about 185 mm.s high and is light brown stoneware coated with what looks like a browny black glaze. The design is not painted over the black glaze, but is actually painted on the biscuit itself in reserve, as is the black glaze.
Looks quite old, but could it be that old as claimed?
Greatly appreciate all opinions, many thanks.







Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: pierrevdw Sat, Aug 16, 2014

Hi,

The style is right.
U must check if you see some white stuff/lime stone deposit in the line of the cracks on the glaze. (deposit created by the humidity on a piece piece being buried many centuries)
Clay should be reddish, not white.
Rainbow colors reflection in the glaze.
Those are a few pointers for natural age sign.

Cheers.

Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: Roni Sun, Aug 17, 2014

thankyou for your reply.
there seem to be no rainbow color on the glaze.
looking with a 10 x loupe there is white in the pale glaze cracks but none in the dark glaze.
Definitely wood fired piece, but hard to estimate if it has an antique age at all??
The last image is of another vase for sale, I am told it is a rarer shape..it has a sandy grey paste, flat base and also has a similar clear, celadon type overglaze, but with a combed russet pattern...could this mallet shape vase have antique age..I only wish to purchase wood fired,handmade porcelain greater than 100 years of age, due to cost and investment potential.
However these do not follow perfect Cizhou examples, hence the dilemma.
Any further thoughts welcome.



Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: Roni Sun, Aug 17, 2014

thankyou for your reply.
There is no irridescence.
The store had the jar cleaned outside with oxalic acid as was very dirty.
The inside has black crazing and is dirty.
I know this jar does not conform to one period perfectly..but I do not wish to waste money on modern pieces. the jar is definitely wood fired, but could it be older than 100 years at least?
Any thoughts on the last image, this vase is also for sale but has a similar glossy celadon type overglaze, however the paste is sandy grey in colour with a finger - smoothed, flat base??
appreciate any further help.







Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: rat Sat, Aug 16, 2014

If you really like it and you need to have it, offer what you are willing to pay for it. Otherwise spend your money on a few books to start learning what actual Tang, Song, and Cizhou wares look like.

Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: Roni Sun, Aug 17, 2014

thanks for your reply.
I do have some books however I needed help on this one because it does not fit the catalogued examples perfectly.

Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: simon Sun, Aug 17, 2014

Hopefully you will hear from someone who knows this pottery well, but to me it doesn't look right for this period, although the raw clay colour and rim style is in the right area. If you do a google image search on Cizhou pottery, I don't think you will see a design remotely like this one - and the brown and white combination is usually used to create a striking silhouette effect. I have a very simple Cizhou bowl from the
Song period - the glaze has a matt quality and the foot is chipped. Cizhou motifs tend to be a combination of geometric patterns in combination with plant forms - but the simpler designs are just elegant strokes to suggest a leaf or grass with a feeling of space. The design on the pot you have posted looks like an exploding party popper - very 1990s. The white glaze looks wrong - the white on the pot posted is a kind of speckled oatmeal - and the surface shows no sign of the sort of wear that you might expect over the span of 900 or so years.
Finally, Cizhou is still manufactured either as a reproduction of Song or in contemporary designs

http://koh-antique.com/cizhou/cizhouware4.html

Hope this uninformed opinion is helpful,
all the best,
Simon

Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: adam Sun, Aug 17, 2014

The colours of the slip and clay are all wrong...

Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: Roni Sun, Aug 17, 2014

thankyou for your reply.
Could this be from alater period where glaze is glossier??
I have added another image of the bamboo leaf pattern which continues on the jar; I know this jar does not fit all characteristics for one period, that is why I sought info here.
Do you have any thoughts on the last image of another vase for sale..this one has a sandy grey paste, hand smoothed flat base but does have a similar celadon type glaze as the previous jar.
I do not want to waste money on modern wood fired porcelain, hence the dilemmas here.

Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: Roni Sun, Aug 17, 2014

attached images





Subject:Re: Seller claims this jar is Sung or Tang period ??? HELP
Posted By: pierrevdw Mon, Aug 18, 2014

Hi,

My teacher once said: If you have any doubt or even one point on the check list that doesn't match, don't buy, you will save heaps.

In your case I can see, and from others members as well, that several points don't match.

Something to think of: why would a seller clean with oxalic acid and remove traces of burial etc...?
If real, the traces will not be taken away.
Only that is already enough to refuse the sale.

Nope, pls don't buy a story.

Cheers.


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