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7.5cm in diameter and 1.2cm at its thickest.

Yellowy ocre/brown and translucent.

The specific gravity is 2.893 in the range of Nephrite and above Serpentine.

A similar style of carving on a more polished white Jade is in the Smithsonian and given as Han.

This piece again comes fropm a collection formed in the far east in the 1960-70's but I don't claim it to be archaic,that will be determined later.

All I can say is that it is at least 40-50 years old !!

Sorry, the stone looks like soft stone.Not as hard as Jade.
Ernest

I understand your observation Ernest and like this method of approach.

I am reluctant to test with a blade and may purchase a set of Mohs pencils to check hardness rather than mark the piece if it is softer than Nephrite or Jadeite.

It is harder than you would think and is not a soapstone.

Here are a few more images of my piece including a piece in the Smithsonian (Han) for stylistic comparison (not age comparison).

Just like your first piece, the material is dubious at best. As a collector, best bet is to research and study what kind of materials were popular across the dynasties.

Also, notice how crude the carvings are, same goes for the other piece. I'm surprised that you could cite good examples for your first piece yet unable to observe the minute but significant differences in carving standards.

A common rebuttal would cite reasons like it was hand carved and cannot be so refined and precise - only those who do not understand the underlying culture that leads to certain standards being maintained in the past.

It is good to avoid the mentality that just because a certain part of an estate sale bundle was genuine, the others would automatically have strong credibility. Astute collectors rarely buy such stories nowadays. The word provenance can be easily misused in this case.

Dave,you state this and the Dragon pendant material is dubious,can you explain yourself more clearly.

On this particular piece I have provided a specific gravity,could you suggest a particular type of material in the s.g range that corresponds with what you see ?

The pieces came from the collection of Mrs Cheng Lammers,a founding member of the Indonesian ceramics society and member of the South East Asian ceramics society.

She died around 8 years ago and her husband died last year when her collection came to market.

She wrote at least four books on Chinese and asian ceramics including that of Adam Malik the Indonesian Vice Presidents collection of ceramics and Jade back in the 1970's.
Her own collection was formed in Singapore and the Far East before moving to London approximately 20 years ago.

I'll show one more piece and then call it a day.

Victor:
You should be aware that Dave is relatively new in jade collecting, having just over four years experience in his hobby,(see his posting below). As such, you may want to discount his sometimes harsh critiques.

(Dave)October 29, 2012
"I've been studying Chinese Archaic Jade for almost a year now and always on the lookout for questionable pieces to both share and learn some knowledge".

Claus:

I believe you have to be careful in not confusing "jade collecting" with "studying jade". Many of us may have been collecting jade for our whole life, but may not have seriously studied jade at all. Therefore, it would be risky to make the assumption that Dave might be relatively new in jade collecting just because he had begun his study of archaic jade since 2011. Furthermore, just because one may have studied medicine in his own leisure for his whole life would not turn one into a medical doctor. In many countries, it only takes a person a total of five years to become a doctor (actually not a MD) after high school. In the US, after college, one would become a M.D. after four more years of medical school plus 2-7 years of internship. In short, one can collect jades his whole life and still knows nothing about jade and on the other hand one can learn a lot about jade in a few years if he indeed seriously studied jade in a correct manner.

I have been collecting coins, especially U.S. Coins, Asian and British Commonwealth coins since I was a kid, but not till 1979 that I had begun seriously studied them. Yet, even now there is still a lot that I do not know. IMHO, before we start collecting anything, whether it is jade or coins, we should buy good reference books and study them first before we would spend any money on the purchase of any jade or coins. It would also help to be able to examine authentic jade pieces especially under the guidance of an expert,of course very often it would be easily said than done.

Unfortunately, those of us who love jade may some time tend to be very subjective and many of us jade lovers very often do not want to hear others' opinions regarding our collected pieces if they are not what we want to hear. Grant that Dave was very blunt in his opinions but previously I had some of my pieces being criticized by experienced jade collectors whom I respect, only becoming very frustrated because they failed to explain to my satisfaction why they were so harsh on my pieces. However, after more studies, I came to agree with their opinions and understand that it is not everyday other more experienced jade collectors would want to share their hard learned experiences with others and very often they may lack the know-how or precise language in explaining themselves clearly even though they do have developed trained eyes with which they can discern fake jades from good jades. Even many so called jade experts would very often differ in their expert opinions regarding the same piece because jade collecting is really more an art than a science. May be it is for that reason, many auction houses would not touch any archaic jades without provenances?

Super

You have to understand none of us are professional jade appraisers and therefore very often our opinions should be taken with a grain of salt. Even if you would ask for the opinions of professionals, very often you would obtain different opinions, especially based on only low-resolution pictures. I am surprised neither Adam or Lee render their opinions. Either they are not real sure about it or do not want to hurt your feeling.

I myself do not know enough about using the quality of carving or style to determine the age of your pendant. However, I did study a little bit about jade material and I have to say I was hardly impressed with the material of your piece if your pictures did show the real color and texture of it (some time, pictures taken under different lighting and with different cameras can make huge difference).

The material based on its appearance and S.G. obtained by you would be at best low quality nephrite jade or a mixture of nephrite/serpentine material. With a S.G. of only 2.89, I would be hesitated to even call it nephrite and I had yet seen any Xiu Yan jade (serpentine) with such a high S.G. That by itself is quite disturbing because there were no confirmed sources of any nephrite jade that were being mined inside China and the sole source of nephrite jade used in the making of most archaic Chinese jades were mostly imported from Xinjiang, China which was not part of China during many dynasties of ancient China. During dynasty such as Song dynasty when China was always invaded by foreign nations, the expenses in transporting Hetian nephrite jade from Xianjiang to the Chinese capital was astronomical. Only until the Qing Emperor QianLong had conquered the Muslim tribes in Xianjiang and with a reign of 60 years, were hetain nephrite jade being able to be imported in larger scales to the Chinese capital. However, even then, all imports of Hetian nephrite jade, like salt, were highly regulated by the imperial government. In short, any nephrite jade that would be used in the "carving" of any archaic pieces would not be cheap, just material wise. To cite as an example, the white Hetian jade in making a pair of jade bowls would cost about 5,000 taels of silver in the QianLong era. At today's silver price, it would be around US$94,000. Before the invention of polishing methods by using high-hardness grit in Qing dynasty, just the polishing process alone would take more than a year. Therefore, the labor cost was not cheap and most jade pieces were reserved for the imperials, nobles, high government officials and the riches in ancient China. The belief that average people would own nice Hetian jade pendants in ancient China, IMHO, are just make-believe.

Now of course, very often inferior material might be used in the making of some jade pieces especially when they were used as burial jades, very often due to deadline or difficulties in obtaining large quantities of quality jade material, local material such as Dushan jade, Xia Yan jade, etc. would be used. Also, depending on the importance of the deceased, the quality of the burial jade would also differ.

The problem here is if this pendant was for everyday wear and only used as a burial piece after the death of the owner (or not), then it should probably be made of nice quality Hetian nephrite jade. If you compare the material of your piece with the one you posted as comparison. The material of your Smithsonian piece is so much better (not because it is in Smithsonian)than that of your piece. Sorry.

If your piece was a burial piece that was made of Xia Yan jade (serpentine) then the S.G. was simply too high. Some quality Xiu Yan jade (Xiu Yu) can actually look great, though with a lower S.G. (usually lower than 2.80) but some can actually pass the scratch test. (*I do not want to call it bowenite because such term is not an academic term)

Therefore, in this case, the material used to make your piece may be cheaper material that may or may not be nephrite, may be from China or outside China, but were readily available for the making of imitation archaic jades.

Lastly, while I was no expert in judging the quality of carving, but the appearance of those small squares that surrounded the central hole of your piece (in your second picture), and the uneven thickness of the edge of your piece, to me is really disturbing. Unlike many may believe, just because they used manual jade carving tools at ancient time, it would not result in their finished jade carvings to appear sloppy, irregular, or uneven. As a matter of fact, Dr. Howard Hansford, had more than once said that holes made with ancient manual jade tools were very often much better than those that were made with modern electrical tools. The problem was not with the tools but the skills of the jade carvers.

Once again, please do not get offended because this is only the opinion of an jade amateur and it is quite possible that you may indeed have a piece of archaic jade pendant. Cheer. Super

Dear Claus,Super and Davr,

Rest assured I am not upset by any of your responses and appreciate the time and effort in your replies

Your responses will help me ask more relevant questions and I thank you for your time.

Regards,

Vic

Well said Super. I have to commend you on the detailed write-up.

I guess the piece speaks for itself to those who are capable of evaluating the piece objectively. Lee and Adam hasn't said anything - food for thought? I believe Lee and Super are fully aware of my eye for archaic jade. Show us a piece with good potential and we will give credit it deserves.

I can spin the best story behind any item coming from some "prominent" background. In Singapore, you can find many doctors and professors holding seminars at Chinatown Library and publishing newspaper ads showing off their "collection". Imagine how naive people can associate genuine antiques with professions. For one astute professor collector, there are probably four professors out there who have been learning from wrong jade books.

I guess Claus had a bad experience with most, if not all, of his questionable pieces shared with this forum. Collecting archaic Jade is not for the faint hearted. Good luck.

No, Dave, I have not had any bad experiences with the jade that I have purchased, Every piece was bought either for the artistic carving or the quality of the jade. My only disappointment is to read the comments by inexperienced people pretending to be experts. Whether its a first semester student in Psychology-1 class, a first-year law student, or the twit who just bought an interest in a race horse, the zeal of some plunges far ahead of their knowledge. Instead of learning from others, they are anxious to display what little knowledge they have. Instead of informed comments or questions, they condemn and ridicule anything other than their own interpretations. During the many years I lived in Singapore, I found these traits to be commonly associated with the spirit of "Kiasu." If you recall the national encouragement to invest in the Singapore stock market in the early 1990s, thousands of common-job workers became investment experts overnight! Like many other employers, I was disappointed to find some of my employees, newly in the market, touting certain stocks and critiquing others on their investments. One individual actually suggested that I invest company funds in a certain stock! He, and some other "instant experts", later applied for loans or advances on their salaries.

I knew and trusted many of the jade and Chinese antique dealers in Singapore and I also knew those who could weave a beautiful story around a piece of junk. The most valuable dealers and jade collectors are those who could appraise, question, critique and discuss a piece of jade without pretending that they were unchallenged experts.

Large Axe head

regards this piece.... Its modern tat, even the neolithic piece is better executed... I have been a little busy lately but dont be concerned. If I see something nice I will pipe up.

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