Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Detail List
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:Cloisonne.....Kettle? could this be Ming?
Posted By: Paul Wed, Jan 14, 2015 IP: 124.181.219.140

Hi - I am puzzling over a beautiful piece of Chinese Cloisonne; first, I'm not sure if it is a 'teapot' for tea, or a kettle, I cannot find the shape with the massive spout. Could it be a wine pot?

It has some defining characteristics;
1/ bronze wires & bronze body, with areas of solder filling in some spaces
2/ some wires show a split or double nature
3/ the interior is not enamelled, but instead has a layer of lacquer - peeling in places

The enamels themselves are beautifully transluscent, and in particular tones; comparing them with Ming examples (ie Christies etc) shows a very similar tone & consistency.

The wires were once gilt, with traces surviving in places.

The pattern is unusual - the lotus are a lot simpler than most cloisonne I have found - I was prompted to log in & post this though when I saw the Chenghua 'Lotus Pond' jar sold at Bonhams last year - http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21355/lot/203/
-it has very similar lotus blooms, and the same idea of profile leaves.

Could I, by some fortune, have stumbled across a very early piece - a Ming Dynasty cloisonne kettle?

All opinions gratefully received! I have been on this site many times, this is the first time I have participated - hopefully the first of many, I have some great pieces to discuss. I particularly like/collect the flow of ideas & styles both East - West AND West - East.

Another question about this piece: where is the shape from? is it an internal Chinese type, or could it be for export>?

thanks!



Subject:Re: Cloisonne.....Kettle? could this be Ming?
Posted By: Paul Thu, Jan 15, 2015

Close ups



Subject:Re: Cloisonne.....Kettle? could this be Ming?
Posted By: Paul Thu, Jan 15, 2015

closeups....



Subject:Re: Cloisonne.....Kettle? could this be Ming?
Posted By: Paul Thu, Jan 15, 2015

more closeups.... notice the 'split wires' and solder marks



Subject:Re: Cloisonne.....Kettle? could this be Ming?
Posted By: Paul Thu, Jan 15, 2015

Interior - a brown lacquer, peeling in quite a few places.



Subject:Re: Cloisonne.....Kettle? could this be Ming?
Posted By: Paul Thu, Jan 15, 2015

the base - with old lead repairs to the seam



Subject:Former discussion, other pieces with similar cloud motifs
Posted By: beadiste Thu, Jan 15, 2015

A former discussion from 2010 is a good example of controversy on items like this - Ming? or Japanese Meiji Ming-style works? The link is to a blog post rather than the discussion, as the blog post captures the original photos, which you can of course enlarge by clicking on them.

Also of interest is a recent eBay offering (item 221652962245) described as a Japanese bowl:

"This bowl was evaluated by an expert and the information that was told to me is as follows : This is a very early Japanese cloisonne bowl dating 1860-75 There are a few of these in museums and in cloisonne collector's collections . They come on the Asian market rarely . Japanese cloisonne wares used a thin layer of enamel leaving a product that was more lightweight but also more delicate and prone to damage and loss of enamel with pitting . The mat enamels were normal in this time period also less stable with discoloration and fritting as they aged . This style bowl with the cloud background cloisonne which is applied around the motifs is also an indicator of early work as well as the limited choice of enamel colors . The flying mythological horses appear often as motifs on these items.'

I queried this ebay seller as to the source of the "professional opinion," and received a reply that it was idcloisonne.

Attached are some photo composites from other auctions similar to the National Palace Museum bowl quoted by kk in the 2010 thread. I selected these because of their white enamel and cloud patterns similar to your pot. [Use the scroll bar at the bottom to move to the right in each picture to see the backs of the bowls...]

The links to these auctions:
Christies $4780 2004
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-large-chinese-cloisonne-enamel-basin-ming-4329934-details.aspx?intObjectID=4329934

Liveauctioneers $400 2013
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/15635253_chinese-ming-cloisonne-basin

Good luck...








URL Title :A Good Discussion on Ming Cloisonne


Subject:Naturalism in lotus leaves and scroll
Posted By: beadiste Fri, Jan 16, 2015

seem especially interesting - a red double-wire stem; leaves, buds, and flowers that actually resemble a plant rather than a stylized design.

Also the style of the lotus flowers seems ... well, "of interest" is all I can say, not being up to speed in the fine details of how the lotus flower design morphed through the centuries. It seems to lack that pillar-like central motif with double figure-8 spiral that shows up in Qing pieces. Apparently a bi-color arrangement of inner and outer petals is also significant?

The lacquer inside is also interesting - no counter enamel. Is the metal body pretty thick?

Again, I'm a novice to this, but the little cloud motifs don't look exactly like the 19th century Japanese versions. Similar, but not the same.

Subject:Bright colors, Wanli Reign of Ming 1573-1620
Posted By: beadiste Fri, Jan 16, 2015

Cracking open Beatrice Quette's Cloisonne: Chinese Enamels from the Yuan, Ming, and Qing Dynasties, your kettle's colors, white ground, and cloud motifs all resemble items attributed to the Wanli reign.

Plus, the enamel colors are more vivid and the lustre higher than in the pieces mentioned above that have been attributed to 19th century Japan.

Of course, noting similarities from photographs is nowhere near having handled - or at least viewed - actual works, so perhaps someone with that expertise will comment.

Subject:Green enamels
Posted By: beadiste Sun, Jan 18, 2015

continuing this conversation with myself, I note that in Quette Chapter 8, by Zhang Rong:

The colors of the Wanli enamel ware include red, white, yellow, ginger-yellow, deep blue, sky blue, turquoise green, and pink [Ming pink, a composite of red and white]

Which doesn't quite account for the deep green in the lotus leaves?

Subject:I have bought 'Cloisonne - enamels from the Yuan, Ming and Qing Dynasties' edited by Beatrice Quette - great book!
Posted By: Paul Wed, Jan 28, 2015

Hi beadiste,
Thank-you very much for the links, pictures, and thoughts - I have followed these through, and yes, do not feel the Japanese option is accurate in this case.
In the time since posting, I have received a copy of the wonderful 2011 book 'Cloisonne - enamels from the Yuan, Ming and Qing Dynasties' edited by Beatrice Quette.... a lot of excellent info in this book, which further reinforce the Ming attribution - early Ming at that.....

The vivid green appears in numerous examples, in particular early 16th century pieces..... so perhaps pre-Wanli, and not covered in the above quote?
There are a lot of pieces illustrated that come from Musée des Arts Décoratifs, Paris - including some suggested as dating to the Yuan.... what is particularly interesting is to note is that the same exact colours/tones are replicated on this kettle being discussed! (p33 Fig 3.4 - a more traditional censor with lotus & flower borders)
No. 6 in the exhibition (p226) is a pair of bottles, from the same source: these are dated to the Yuan (!). Similarities in design here include the simplified daisy head which appears on the neck - the kettle has this appearing in the border as a half-flower, same construction technique of wires - and the simple lotus that appears near it, which is about the only lotus that matches the example on the kettle I could find. It seems the lotus quickly becomes more complex, the main change being the inclusion of a scrolled terminal to the inner line of the petal, giving it the appearance of a cluster of conch shells.... is this a fair enough comment?

As stated in the previous post, the Chenghua ' lotus pond' jar (http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21355/lot/203/) also has simple profile lotus, as well as very similar profile views of the lotus leaves. Looking at these threads together, there's a strong possibility that this is way, way earlier than anticipated.....

Unless there are other pieces out there with the same characteristics that would date it later?

- the body is not thick, seems to be a beaten copper form where there is slight loss of brown lacquer to the interior. Beautiful fittings on the handles.

I still cannot find two things:

1/ the shape: with such a massive spout, the contents would be transferred very quickly to a cup - not typical of wine or tea.....?
2/ the green spikes coming out of the lotus flowers: they remind me of 16th century Iznik 'saz' flowers - although they are carnations or tulips, not lotus.


thanks again for the thoughts,

Paul

ps is it ok to take a snapshot from a book page & post it here, as long as the source is attributed? don't want to run afoul of copyright!

URL Title :\'Cloisonne - enamels from the Yuan, Ming and Qing Dynasties\' edited by Beatrice Quette


Subject:Re: I have bought 'Cloisonne - enamels from the Yuan, Ming and Qing Dynasties' edited by Beatrice Quette - great book!
Posted By: cloisonne Mon, Mar 02, 2015

do you want to sale it?

contact me at cloisonne2014@ gmail


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |