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Subject:C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Danny Sat, Sep 19, 2015 IP: 216.251.149.115

Can anyone know what time period or which dynasty is this dragon belongs?Thanks!



Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Sun, Sep 20, 2015

This looks like an abstract painting...how about a sharp photo?or two...
Ernest

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: DANNY Mon, Sep 21, 2015

Hi there, Here is 3 more pictures for you to see. Thank you Ernest! I can post some micro pics if you like also.







Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Tue, Sep 22, 2015

what I see is a modern carving, most likely a Serpentine. do a scratch test
Ernest

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: danny Wed, Sep 23, 2015

Hi Ernest, this jade scratch glass easily and razor blade cannot scratch it either. I think this one is a Xinjiang Hetin jade and when I strike a lightly it sounds very high pitch. Serpentine sounds very dull. You can take a look at the dissolved Pits, can clearly see mineral crystals inside. I will post some more close up pictures.







Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Tue, Sep 22, 2015

Danny.. you have a few options.. try to get your money back, or keep those pieces you acquired as study material of what old Jade does not look like. Avoid the person who sold you those carvings and nice stories.Get some good Jade books, study!!!
Good luck
Ernest

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: DANNY Wed, Sep 23, 2015

Thank you Ernest! This piece was a gift from a older friends so no money back option!!To see if the jade is real or not I think you need to see, touch and feel the piece as well. Old jade got pulp on the surface and when you touch it, it feels like touching a dry soap and new jade do not have that kind of feel also the knife work is old style and not machine or modern power tools marks.

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Super Thu, Sep 24, 2015

When you said "jade is real or not", what exactly did you mean?
For the Chinese, any stone that is beautiful would be considered as jade; to go a step further, any stones that have the five virtues of a gentleman would be considered as jade. In that regard, there is only one jade material that can consist of all these five virtues - Hetian nephrite jade. So what is real jade to you?

You said your piece was made of white nephrite, may I ask how did you know? Did you test it?
If it was indeed made of nephrite, how did you explain all these white carving lines on its surface? Any time you saw white lines that would usually be a bad sign because it would usually mean its material could be scratched by metal and therefore cannot be nephrite.

You have to forgive me from saying, I cannot recall ever seeing any excavated small C-Dragons, even the large C-Dragon were not excavated pieces. The quality of the material of your piece is so inferior, that would be an immediate red flag. The material does not resemble any credible jade material used to make authentic Hongshan jade pieces. Those carving lines almost appear being added in a hurry later. Its luster and carving quality were so bad that I would not even call it Hongshan style. Sorry.


Also, please forgive me for asking:
Who the heck told you that "Old jade got pulp on the surface and when you touch it, it feels like touching a dry soap" That was the most funny thing I had ever heard especially if you indeed have a genuine piece of Hongshan piece that was made of nephrite or even any older jade pieces. Some of the genuine small Hongshan pieces, even after being buried in the ground for a long time, once they were cleaned with soft brush, soap and water, their luster would shine like a gem, almost like a pristine piece because the carver had spent probably his whole life in polishing it and playing with it. Most of the Hongshan pieces were buried in air-tight stone coffins at high ground and because of their material (high hardness) and superb polishing, they were seldom corroded by outside elements and therefore most of them would not feel like "pulp on the surface" or a dry soap when one touches it. I do advise you to spend some money in buying some jade books especially that of Hongshan jades if you are truly interested in the study of jade. No pun intended. Super.



Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Danny Fri, Sep 25, 2015

I never said my C SHAPE DRAGON was a Hong Shan piece. Hong Shan jade is usually made out of XIU jade which is much softer then Xinjiang nephrite. Shang dynasty jades were commonly made of Xinjiang nephrite and I had been handling nephrite jades over two 20 years. Have you heard about Mr. Ren Nan( www.hswh.com) He is the guy said old jade got pulp and feels like touch dry soap. I am not a big fan of Hong Shan jade. I collect more Qing dynasty jades instead. Confucius says jade have 5 virtues. That jade he talked about was Xinjiang nephrite. In Western Zhou Dynasty Xinjiang jades were very commonly used and it was very good quality. As the matter of fact in 1976 the Fu Hao tomb (Shang Dynasty) was unearth and 755 pieces of jade, mostly were made of Xinjiang nephrite.
When you talked about the white lines on the surface of the jade should have the same shine on a true archaic jade. The line-- it is called the knife work in Chinese. it actually using metal tor (copper in Shang and later in Eastern Zhou, iron tor was invented) That is why in Spring And Autumn period and Warring states jade pieces were more fine details then the previous dynasty. Also different dynasty had different style of knife work and different patterns as well. Dragons evolved as well. From Hong Shan Culture C Shaped Dragon to S Shaped Dragon in Han Dynasty and later on dragons have teeth, mane and claws. You must handle the jade not just look at the pictures before you can determinate it is a fake one, that is very very important !! Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you!!

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Super Fri, Sep 25, 2015

Danny: Thank you for your detailed responses. Please understand that I did not mean any disrespect to either your jade C-dragon or your jade expertise. If I came across too strong, please accept my apology.

You said Hongshan jade was usually made out of XIU jade which is much softer than Xinjiang nephrite. You have to be careful in how you define xiu yu or xiu yan jade. Yes some of the xiu jade used to make Hongshan pieces were so called bowenite (I hate to use this term because it is really not a correct term) that is serpentine and cannot be scratched. However, some Hongshan pieces were made of old xiu jade which was a type of nephrite that resembles the quality of Hetian nephrite jade. Once they could be found in the Hongshan area but were now extinct. Another credible jade material is Manassa River bai yu (resembles BC nephrite jade and Xinjiang bai yu)that was used to make large Hongshan C dragons.

You also should be careful in using the term Xinjiang nephrite because not all Xinjian nephrite are Hetian nephrite jades, some can be from Qinghai or other sides of the Mt. Kunlun. It was true that they did find a lot of burial jade pieces in Lady Fuhao's tomb that was made of high quality white nephrite and it was not till later that they believed they were made of Hetian nephrite jade. Please bear in mind that not all burial jades especially those found in lesser tombs were necessarily made of high quality Heitan nephrite jade. Some time when even an emperor passed away suddenly, they might have to use local jades in making large quantity of burial jades. Therefore, credible material for most Chinese archaic jades are Hetian nephrite, xiu yu and Dushan jade (also called Nanyang jade). However there are many other local jade material that were used and I do not know all of them.

Please understand that the resolution of your pictures are very low and they were not taken with the best lighting and therefore I really could not tell what caused the carving lines on your piece appeared to be white. I was not really impressed by the quality of these carving lines especially if you believe your pieces is a Zhou or Shang piece. IMHO, they were very poorly executed, based on your picture. Sorry.
I am also greatly disturbed by those spider web appearance on its surface and all these corrosion shown on your close up pictures because they appeared to be artificially made (high heat? Chemical?)
I really do not believe it was made of white Hetian nephrite jade even though it passed a scratch test. May be you should test its specific gravity? Its original color appears to be yellowish-green to me. Again, a good Hetian nephrite jade piece should not be corroded so badly even if it was a burial piece. Had you ever tried to corrode a quality nephrite piece by pouring corrosive (acid or alkali) on it?
Also, yes, I had heard of Ren Nan and had looked at his web site before and cannot say I was overtly impressed by his jade expertise especially many jade experts in China have their own personal agendas and very often their expert opinions could be bought for a price.
Now it is indeed true that without any of us having the same opportunity in handling the piece like you did and based only on some low resolution pictures, to even render any opinions would be almost foolish and please again accept my sincere apology if might have offended you or your piece.
Since you are at Vancouver, Canada, there must be a lot of jade experts (I believe Ernest resides in Canada too), have you asked for their professional opinions or forward the pictures of your C dragon to large auction houses for their appraisals?

Thank you for sharing. Super

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Sat, Sep 26, 2015

Traveling season. Just in case, I can be reached in Vancouver via email : [email protected] before Nov..5th, and after Nov. 16
Ernest

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: danny Fri, Sep 25, 2015

Hi Super,
I posted a few more close up micro pictures for the knife work and tool marks, dissolved pits, cracks.







Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Super Thu, Nov 05, 2015

Just curious, had you ever tested its S.G. (density)?

IMHO, all these corrosion and spider web on it are extremely bothersome. Its color did appear different on its regular pictures vs its close up picture. There must be some jade experts in Vancouver, Canada? Had you met with Ernest yet?

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: Danny Fri, Nov 06, 2015

Hi Super,
Not yet. I am in San Francisco for vacation now. As the matter of fact, I just went to the Asian Art Museum and saw lots of nice nephrite jades there. I might visit Ernest when I come back to Vancouver. Thank you for you advice!! Have a great weekend!!
Danny

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: DANNY Mon, Sep 21, 2015

This dragon was a white nephrite and the soakage turned the white stone into chestnut color and the eye is like Canadian football and the body is craved with thunder cloud pattern. I am posting some close up pictures of the tool marks for you to see and I hope you can tell me which dynasty this one was made. Thank you Ernest!!







Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: j lewis Sun, Sep 20, 2015

Dragon? How on earth can we tell WHAT that is?

Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: DANNY Mon, Sep 21, 2015

Hi there,
Here is a few pictures for this Dragon Thanks!







Subject:Re: C Shaped Jade Dragon
Posted By: DANNY Mon, Sep 21, 2015

Hi Lewis,
Here is some close up tool marks pictures of this dragon. I hope it may help to identified which period this jade was made. Thanks.








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