Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Detail List
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:Hongshan?
Posted By: brian Mon, Dec 28, 2015 IP: 121.218.177.181

I would appreciate an opinion on this piece. About ten years ago I became interested in the Hongshan culture and its carvings in particular its crystal carvings as a result of which I have a large number.







Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Tue, Dec 29, 2015

It would be nice to see sharp pictures, at a slight distance , and very close. Or, better yet, go to an expert, museum, etc, as it is a very difficult subject,
Ernest

Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: Super Tue, Dec 29, 2015

Around 2006, I saw a lot of large Hongshan style "crystal" pieces on eBay. Some did have that "old" look and it was not easy to win one CHEAP. I finally won a piece and when I tried to scratch it I had troubles scratching it because its surface was so slippery and therefore I thought it might indeed be made of natural crystal because in ancient China some of the archaic pieces were indeed made of crystal and this piece appeared to pass the scratch test. However, one time by accident I broke a corner of the HS "crystal" piece and to my surprise I found it looked exactly like the chipped surface of a glass piece. Then I tried to scratch it very hard with a MOH 7 hardness pick and found I could scratch it. (Glass should have a hardness of around 5 and crystal of around 7). In short, I now believe many of these so called HS crystal pieces, whether large or small, were all made of glass. Since natural crystal has a MOH hardness of closer to 7, it would be almost impossible for the Hongshan artisans to find such large pieces of natural crystals, then tried to cut it out and then carved it without any metal tools. I had never seen any authentic/excavated LARGE Hongshan crystal pieces at all. If anybody has, please post pictures and reference of them here. Thanks in advance.

Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: Antoine Tue, Dec 29, 2015

Since 1972, selling Hongshan pieces outside of China is illegal unless you have strong provenance showing that your piece was already in the US before 72. Your piece is an obvious fake. Sorry.

Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: Super Wed, Dec 30, 2015

Not to totally disagree with you said, Antoine, but based on what you said, every single Hongshan piece sold outside China since 1972 would be obviously fakes?
Give me a break, even though the Hongshan culture was discovered around 1935 but the Hongshan jade fever did not start until may be a decade ago. How in the world anybody even knew what an authentic Hongshan piece was supposed to look like before 1972?
Probably almost ALL of the Hongshan pieces out there, IMHO, are fakes.

Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: snap Thu, Dec 31, 2015

Was it Ernest who noted (quoting someone?) that of about 350 genuine Hongshan jades known, 10,000 are in the United States.

Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: pipane Sat, Jan 02, 2016

Enerst specializes in selling modern jadeite, witch he does well, correct me if I am wrong, but beside his professional experience I don't see how it could be relevant to authenticate archaic jade.

Concerning your 350 HS jades recorded, I have here on my bookshelf more HS recorded pieces in just one book...inner mongolia university press. I am therefore very curious about your source since so many books on the subject have been published since.

Concerning Brian christal looking ciccada, I suspect it is made of a much softer material (cant remember the exact name,scratch test is necessary anyway). Carving is modern, and it doesn't corresponding to any historical period.








Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: snap Mon, Jan 04, 2016

With all due respect to your extensive experience, I think you would agree that publication is one thing, and authenticity can be quite another thing.

Something excavated must have been buried by someone, and it is possible even to salt authentic archaeological sites with material that did not belong there. The same "salting" is done in antiques and fine-arts auctions, in my experience.

We can recall the Japanese archaeologist who created his own burial sites which he subsequently, of course, "discovered," and until his deception was revealed he was building quite a reputation with purportedly ancient pottery.

I have no experience or expertise with jade and hardstone carvings asserted to be ancient. I tried to reconstruct another person's remark to make the more general point that the number of fakes, forgeries and imitations vastly outnumber the genuine. This is true of many "collectible" fields where there is money to be made.

Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: brian Tue, Jan 05, 2016

Hi,
The crystal I have shown you has the body of a cicada and the head of a horned animal. I have Hongshan? carvings made from various kinds of crystals: red, blue, amythyst, hyalite(water opal)and with bubbles inside. Here is a crystal carving of a female face I presume of the period?







Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: pipane Sat, Jan 09, 2016

Sorry again, this would be a recent copy, and not a good one.

Best HS jade copies can be very tricky since they are made from old jade recently modified to look like HS jade (some being real HS broken/damaged jades with tiny modifications). All other types of fake HS among them those that show artificial aging can be quite easily spoted out.







Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: Thayne Fri, Sep 30, 2016

Though these crystals are often thought to be fake, they are made from melting quartz crystals then coloring the melted rock. Copper makes a pinkish color, etc... It may be the very first form of glass that was manufactured in the world. I have numerous pieces of this crystal and have found most to be quite genuine. This process of melting rock is also where a lot of the Tibetan "turquoise" comes from- from melting rocks together- as well as "bloodstone" Hongshan carvings. There is even a green color that must have been buried as soon as it was made that turns turquoise blue in sunlight.

I sincerely doubt the Chinese know how to do any of this today and would be hard pressed to create fakes in the numbers that are being sold, particularly carved from crystal which is much harder than most jade. However the Tibetans seem to carry on the tradition of coloring crystal even to this day- it is often called "tiger skin", "watermelon" or "cherry" crystal and most often comes in a pinkish color.

People tend to underestimate the prehistoric populations of China and Tibet as well as the duration of time, but there were a lot of people who were very, very industrious just like people are today. Also many of the Hongshan artifacts being sold so cheaply appear to have been looted from other locations than central and northern China, namely Yunnan, Sichuan and Tibet- and are being sold to disenfranchise these people and rob them of their past.

And this is why Tibetans have dragons and Chinese have dragons. Because they are actually related! It may be that the ancestors of the Tibetans actually invented most of what we consider to be "Chinese" culture today and this is why these things are being sold without provenance.

I've been keeping track of some of the artifacts the Chinese communists have been looting from their country as well as trying to learn more, please visit the link for more information and the thousands, and thousands of items being lost before any scientist can study them.








URL Title :Little Green Men


Subject:Re: Hongshan?
Posted By: pipane Sat, Jan 09, 2016

Yes, without mentioning the HS jades pieces from before 1935 that were later on authenticated as HS... I think of a particular horse head auctionned some 20+ years ago...


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |