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Subject:Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: chuck tell Tue, Apr 12, 2016 IP: 68.231.42.77

Anybody have a clue what this might be? Some kind of box? Asian? Age? Looks old. Each piece has an "H' carved into it. But it doesn't look like an Asian character. The face on the tortoise looks somewhat like Asian pieces I've seen. Any and all thoughts welcome. I'm lost. Thanks.







Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Gman Tue, Apr 12, 2016

Yes, what a strange piece.

To me it seems anything but Asian, I would have thought Mexico, Central or South America, or perhaps even Africa.

I wish I could see more details.

Is the lid (shell) hinged, or separate from the body? Does it fit tightly? Is the last small hole at the end of the shell simply a hole, or is it hollowed into the carved slot next to it?

If the shell is not attached by hinges, the body portion could function as a ladle.

The opening of the turtle's mouth seems out of place in terms of its round appearance, which seems to serve some specific purpose unrelated to the form of the turtle.

Is the neck hollow from the mouth down to the inside of the box shaped area of the body? If so, any liquid in that box could be poured out the turtle's spout-like mouth.

The carving of the inside of the shell seems to have a specific purpose to it as well. At first I thought that the carver had simply removed some of the wood to make the lid lighter, yet considering the obvious skill of the carver, it seems to have strangely shaped specifically carved channels which provide no details pertinent to portraying the form of a turtle.

The thought that it could be used for filtering liquid, or steeping tea or herbs of some sort occurred to me, yet why the specifically carved channels and not crisp, sharp, finely carved slots which match the skill of the turtle itself?

Very strange indeed.

Haha, just curious but I would like to know what happens if you close the lid and blow through the turtle's mouth? Does it make any horn-like sound or whistle? That is really my best guess for the specifically carved channels, which may have been for tuning the whistle's pitch.

I think if it were mine I would have to experiment with water, maybe if filled with liquid it makes a funny sound when poured, or blown into.

Thanks for sharing, more photos please!

Cheers
Gman

Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: chuck Thu, Apr 14, 2016

No hinge. The shell doesn't fit tightly at all. The smaller depression at the end of the shell's bottom is just a depression. It doesn't go anywhere. The picture of the round mouth is deceptive. I've attached a more revealing angle. The mouth is actually wider, with additional openings on both sides of the round hole. The inside of the mouth is carved out about the size of the inside of what a real mouth would be, but it doesn't lead anywhere. Also, the neck is not hollowed out at all. The shell actually sits oddly on the base. As you can see in another attached image here, the front of the shell covers a good chunk of the design on the body, and it hangs out over the back end of the body. When I first saw it, I thought maybe the shell was a different wood than the body, as did an auction house guy who just happened to be there when i picked it up from the thrift shelf. I thought maybe a different person added a replacement shell after the fact. The shell is more reddish and a bit lighter in shade than the body. However, the undersides of both pieces look similar in technique and wood. And, as previously mentioned, they both have the same mark carved into them. I detect no particular smell for either piece. Also, there's a perfectly round, small mystery hole in just one of the "ribs," on the shell, which in fact, all do have squared-off tops.
Thanks,
Chuck

Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: chuck Fri, Apr 15, 2016

The three images I sent to accompany my "no hinge " reply don't appear to have gone through, so i'm sending them again. The third image of three is a shot from behind. The "hole" referred to in the "no hinge" reply is in an image I sent in a response to Bill H.







Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Bill H Tue, Apr 12, 2016

This is a carved bamboo root turtle box, perhaps for incense. Whether it is from China, Japan or Korea is difficult to say, as turtles and tortoises are important cultural symbols of longevity and strength in all three of these linguistically entwined cultures (and all the other ethnic Chinese communities around the world). Bamboo carving is an art form of most such places as well.

The English "H", when turned on its side, greatly resembles the Chinese character "Gong" (工 - labor or work), which is found in many marks on Chinese arts & crafts makers. Wonder if this might relate to what you are seeing.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Bill H Wed, Apr 13, 2016

Here's another turtle box from the Northeastern part of Thailand (Isarn). This one was used to store powdered lime from seashells, which was used by betel nut-chewers to reduce bitterness in the "quid", as a prepared "chew" of the nut is known. The areca or betel palm is the source of the betel nut chewed all over Asia for its alkaloid content, which gives the chewer a pick-me-up similar to a strong caffeine drink. This boost in energy fits with the turtle as a icon of strength and endurance.

Best regards,

Bill H.



Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Chuck Thu, Apr 14, 2016

Here's an image of my "H" or your Gong character. What do you think? Also, any idea what that small hole is about? It's the only one on either piece. The small "slit-like" hole on the third image here appears to be from wear. Is it possible to guess how old this thing is?
Thanks,
Chuck







Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Gman Sat, Apr 16, 2016

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the extra photos.

My eyesight must be going, for I had not even noticed the carved separations inside of the box.

These raised ribs inside the box, carefully carved in comparison to the more randomly carved channels on the bottom of the lid, seem to be more on par with the skill shown on the rest of the turtle.

Even the oval shaped concavity carved out above the tail begs the question....why? It has nothing to do with the form of a turtle, and like the odd channels of the lid, they are just extra work.

Maybe this box was used for sizing and sorting something....pearls maybe?

It is still bugging me where I have seen similarly carved features to the turtle's face, the little red light is flashing in my head while the hard drive searches my memory.

Interesting conversation piece, thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Gman

Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Chuck Mon, Apr 18, 2016

Thanks, Gman.
I'm including a few images I've run across trying to use the face as a clue. The first one is an "Asian" candle holder. I attempted to post the url. The second, if I remember, is maybe from a Chinese temple, and the third, again, if I remember correctly, is Japanese. They certainly aren't exactly like mine, but maybe are in some way the same kind of odd. The "0h" position of the mouth on my turtle/tortoise makes me think about the possibility of some relationship to foo dogs, which, I have read, sometimes have an open or shut mouth depending on if they're making an "oh" or "um' vocalization. (grasping at straws maybe.)
Also, you seem to think this is an unusual piece. Does this mean that it's relatively rare, or just that you personally haven't seen something just like it?








URL Title :Another Picture. (The first image.)


Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Bill H Mon, Apr 18, 2016

Hey guys,

Here's a picture and descriptive text copied from a longer web article about bamboo, showing the cross-section of a bamboo root and describing its nature. Those sections you're seeing inside this box and its cover are natural, as far as I can see, but perhaps smoothed and shaped a bit. It may be that this also is a betel box carved outwardly like my lime box but used for serving the prepared quids, using the natural segments to separate the quids and their condiments, including a paste made from the lime.

Best regards,

Bill H.



Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Chuck Tue, Apr 19, 2016

Thanks, Bill.
That image in the article you attached sure looks familiar.
Chuck

Subject:Re: Asian wood carving of turtle?
Posted By: Chuck Tue, Apr 19, 2016

Bill and everybody else,
I just had an afterthought.
Why do you think the top of the turtle shell doesn't show any wear from being used upside-down?
The body seems to show considerable wear. Note previous images, including the little slit hole near the tail that actually appears to have worn through.
Chuck
PS, Maybe the shell was always held in someone's lap? Still, no wear though.


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