Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Detail List
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Sun, Apr 24, 2016 IP: 108.24.177.84

I don't read Chinese I would appreciate if someone would Translate these Guan Marks Thank You





Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: Bill H Mon, Apr 25, 2016

The top photo has a mark of 郊坛官窑 - jiaotan guanyao - "Official kiln for sacrifices" (for rites to Heaven & Earth). The other mark, 修內司 - Xiu Nei Si, apparently refers to the Department of Palace Supply, under the relocated Northern Song Administration, which was driven south to Hangzhou in 1138 A.D. This Department was responsible for kilns built to manufacture new sacrificial wares. See Wikipedia.org link below.

Hopefully you'll sort out whether the ceramics you've shown in another posting are old or not and then reveal which of them bear these marks.

Bill H.

URL Title :Northern Song Kilns


Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: Bill H Mon, Apr 25, 2016

The top photo has a mark of 郊坛官窑 - jiaotan guanyao - "Official kiln for sacrifices" (for rites to Heaven & Earth). The other mark, 修內司 - Xiu Nei Si, apparently refers to the Department of Palace Supply, under the relocated Northern Song Administration, which was driven south to Hangzhou in 1138 A.D. This Department was responsible for kilns built to manufacture new sacrificial wares. See Wikipedia.org link below.

Hopefully you'll sort out whether the ceramics you've shown in another posting are old or not and then reveal which of them bear these marks.

Bill H.

URL Title :Northern Song Kilns


Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Wed, Apr 27, 2016

Thank you Bill H This particular Guanyao vase is embellished and has an overlay of gold gild over platinum decoration of dragons that was presumably applied during the Qing Dynasty. This Vase is the first mark. Also I have added another mark I need translated Thank you








URL Title :chinesemasterpieces.com


Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: peter_ Wed, Apr 27, 2016

Perhaps you could explain why simplified Chinese characters, the use of which did not begin until the second half of the 20th century, do appear on Song dynasty items?

Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Thu, Apr 28, 2016

I believe they used many of the same characters from the old traditional language. Maybe Bill H. will answer your question he’s an expert in Chinese writing.

URL Title :chinesemasterpieces.com


Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: Bill H Fri, Apr 29, 2016

When language reforms were instituted by the PRC in the 20th century, existing simplified character forms that had been around for ages were employed in many instances. In the case of "Tan" for altar, the two are 壇 and 坛. Some references, such as the "Mathews' Chinese English Dictionary", which was compiled before the advent of the PRC, show these older simplified and other variant characters with their definitions.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: peter_ Sat, Apr 30, 2016

It is true that some characters were used in an abbreviated form before PRC simplification, like with those found on 19th century Qianjiang wares.
But these are not official character versions (正字 or 'correct' characters), anybody can use them in handwriting, but this here would be an official mark. It surely would use the proper official characters.
For us involved in Chinese antiques the relevant dictionary is the Kangxi dictionary, the official character dictionary compiled in that reign. It does list neither the character 坛 nor 窑. Usually that means they were not used then. The proper versions of the characters would be 壇 and 窯.
Again, we are talking here about official or imperial writing, not what the man in the street uses.

Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: Bill H Sun, May 01, 2016

So, what's new? I'm just providing translations as best I can while trying to avoid judgments and the fray. At least Unicode accords the character 'Tan' (坛) for 'altar' a virtual spot on the Kangxi Dictionary. Wonder if that means they think it actually was included by the emperor's lexicographers in one of those alternate universes.

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Can someone translate these Guan marks
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Sun, May 01, 2016

I have added a Guanyao Vase that has Fire gilded bands on the rim and base,these bands clearly show cuprite and malachite corrosion The base has a mark that is the same mark your speaking about. And this proves that they did use these characters during the S Song Dynasty Because this type of corrosion cannot be reproduced. (From the book copper and bronze in art by David Scott The existence of malachite formation over a layer of cuprite is supported by analytical and metallographic studies, is a good indication of the authenticity of an artifact.)








URL Title :chinesemasterpieces.com



Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |