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Subject:Broken Sword
Posted By: Torazon Fri, Apr 29, 2016 IP: 75.13.93.12

I would appreciate any thoughts as to the authenticity of this sword.







Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: pipane Sat, May 07, 2016

Damaged but old, warring states most probably.

Regards,
P.

Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: Michael O Sun, May 08, 2016

If you believe pipane that this is a warring states sword, then you could have bought this for US 148.42 in AliExpress. What's more, this sword on offer was not broken and had "ancient Chinese characters" written on it.

I attach the URL here.

URL Title :http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Rare-Old-Chinese-Warring-states-period-bronze-sword-carved-a


Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: pipane Tue, Jun 14, 2016

It is about what it's worth... Broken, not worth collecting...but thanks.

And yes I am pretty sure it is that old.


Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: pipane Tue, Jun 14, 2016

Sorry for my previous post, I overread yours, can't see the sword you are talking about on aliexpress.com could you post it here?

From what I have seen lot of fakes popping out when browsing for warring states sword on that website. I would not recommend to buy antiquities there. Beside very few swords from that period bears characters... So it makes me doubtful.. To say the least.

Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: Michael O Fri, Jul 08, 2016

Pipane, here is the site:
http://fr.aliexpress.com/store/product/Rare-Old-Chinese-Warring-states-period-bronze-sword-carved-ancient-Chinese-characters-Free-drop-Shipping/800794_480038131.html?storeId=800794

I find it rather unbelievable that a real warring states sword can be so easily obtained, broken or not. I find it equally amazed that you can so easily pass this as the real deal. What makes this sword here different from the one posted in aliexpress for $US128.42, shipping included?

Perhaps I am wrong as I am no expert on swords. In that case, the owner should try to get it to a museum for a real expert's appraisal.

Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: pipane Sat, Sep 17, 2016

Question of point of view. When unearthed they can come by tens, if people are looking for a quick buck repairs would cost more than the asking price. They (grave robbers) look first for valuable... Jade fittings, gold, etc...

A picture can say more than a thousand words : here attached a complete set...

For the sword on the link you posted, the picture is not clear enough to tell anything. General shape is right but good fake would copy that easily.

Would need a clear view of those "inscriptions" on the blade too, not really common on this type of blade.

Regards,
P.



Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: Michael O Mon, Sep 19, 2016

I am not sure what is the point you wanted to make about this sword. I would in fact be even more suspicious if I am offered a "complete set". So if swords are dug up in the tens, would there be tens of complete sets?

Is that a wax seal attached to the jade? If it is, I would definitely stay away from it.

Just like what you yourself say, it is difficult to judge from pictures. The complete set you show may be what it is. You believe what you want but please do not offer wrong and unsubstantiated opinions so quickly.

Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: pipane Tue, Sep 20, 2016

My point is to say that jade fitting parts are the valuable parts of the sword, much more valuable than the bronze sword itself, market value of the five jades pieces is bet. 20,000 and 40,000 USD each. Total 100,000 USD (a bronze sword around 3,000 usd).

Also note that chinese sword collector and sword expert market is much smaller than the fine archaic jades market, hence the price.

Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: Michael O Thu, Sep 22, 2016

If it comes as a "complete set" as you call it, it means that if one item is fake, so must be the rest. On the other hand, I think that sets are made up probably with a real (and lesser value) item to pass off other fake and more costly items as real.

As a question of provenance, how does anyone prove that this is a set? You do not say what is that wax seal attached to the jade piece. Maybe it has been authenticated by a well-known museum, you think? In my opinion, the sword does not look real but I cannot say about the jade pieces as they are not shown very clearly. Anyway I am not a jade or even a sword expert. I am just a confused reader of your postings.

Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: pipane Thu, Sep 22, 2016

Everything's possible especially in China...but here I believe it is the real thing...just like the broken one you posted.

I remind you that bronze can't be carbon dated nor jades/gems/stone, therefore authenticating such items requires experience. It would certainly be fastidious to go through the whole process explanation here.

-I don't know about that wax seal, most probably the seal from a previous auction house, that was kept to reassure potential buyers. This item is not mine, it is a reference picture I had in my phone from another professional dealer (I kept because a complete set is quite rare).

I don't want to convince anybody of anything, I am not selling these, I just saying, may be you'd better ask somebody you trust over this or start to make some research about it.

On another hand you admit you don't know much about jade or bronze, how a clearer picture would change anything to that ? You might prefer a good fake to this (again, my personal opinion) genuine warring states sword ? This happens everyday and my politic about it is simple, I'd rather deal with dealers and collectors, they know what they are buying, and because of that they are ready to spend money to get the real thing while amateurs often end up with copies and damaged/lesser value collectibles, try to convince people just doesn't work that much.

Hope I made myself clear, english is not my mother tongue... and I am well aware that my alf broken english can be very upsetting to english speaking folks. (is that even make sense ?).

anyway good luck !

P.

Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: pipane Thu, Sep 22, 2016

As for bronzes from that period, let me give you one hint:

fake patina covers the bronze and oxidate its surface while real antique bronze (from that period) oxydation come from "inside" (usually from some manufacture defect/weakness) to the outside and then spread...it is quite clear once you've seen it once.

sorry if this hint sound cryptic but it is one of the surest way to see if patina is made up or real. of course this is just one criteria among many to authenticate Chinese bronzes from Shang period to Han.


Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: pipane Thu, Sep 22, 2016

...



Subject:Re: Broken Sword
Posted By: Michael O Wed, Sep 28, 2016

Hi pipane. I was very reluctant to respond to your latest comments and postings but I felt the need to set somethings straight. I did not post any sword, broken or otherwise. I had only referred to a similar looking sword in a on-line sale.

You have this habit of posting pictures that do not belong to you and which you do not credit the source(s). You would only conveniently "confess" that the picture is not yours when pressed for further answers.

As a professional dealer yourself, would you say that you would trust a wax seal supposedly, say from an auction house, to reassure you of the object's authenticity? Or would you judge the object by itself without regard to the seal or the story of the "complete set", which is already quite rare, as you put it?

As a professional dealer who is backed by experts around the world, as you had once described yourself, should you not be more responsible in posting your opinions and in the use of pictures?

As a last note, I am sure (I hope) I am not the only reader of your postings. So when I requested better pictures, it was not only for myself, but for the benefit of other interested readers and experts out there.




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