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Subject:Some concerns about 18th century footrims
Posted By: JLim Wed, Nov 29, 2017 IP: 121.210.26.251



Dear all

A couple of days ago I was surprised to read page 271 of Anthony Allen's latest book, in which he states that the "recessed base" form of foot on Qing Dynasty plates was adopted among potters as a means of lightening the weight of the porcelains to save on freight costs. From the illustration Allen gives it is clear that what Allen means by "recessed base" is what I call a "knife rim" - a foot used on 18th century porcelain plates which is triangular in profile a little like the edge of a knife.

This means that the earlier form of footrim was what I call a "belt rim" - a rim that is narrow and tall and slightly rounded at the edge, a bit like the profile of a leather belt coiled and balanced on a flat surface.

What surprised me was that Allen dates the switchover from the "belt rim" to the "knife rim" as late as the late second quarter of the 18th century - circa 1750. This would mean that all "knife rim" plates date to the mid-Qianlong era or later.

Now, I was under the impression that the "knife rim" on plates is typical of the whole 18th century, or that it at least existed in Kangxi's time. If Allen is right, then a great deal of my porcelain is a lot later than I thought - neither Kangxi nor Yongzheng, nor even early Qianlong.

Below, I picture three of my 18th century plates. The first two, which are Chinese Imaris I always dated to Kangxi or possibly Yongzheng, I must now re-date to mid-Qianlong or newer - because they have a "knife rim", clearly visible.

The third plate, a dragon and carp plate which I have always believed to be Kangxi, has the "belt rim". Therefore it may be my only full size plate that is from the Kangxi reign.

Do any of the knowledgeable people on this forum have any opinions on the origin date of the "knife rim"? I'm sure I have seen plates described as Kangxi or Yongzheng era which possess the "knife rim". I don't know what to think.

Kind regards
J.Lim







Subject:Re: Some concerns about 18th century footrims
Posted By: Bill H Thu, Nov 30, 2017

Good grief, Jim. Go back and read that passage carefully before you pop a clot! Allen says and then says again for stress that the shape of some repeat some of these 18th century plates changed in form and that both types continued to be produced until the end of the Qing dynasty.

Now breathe deeply for a couple of minutes and you'll feel better.

Bill H.

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Subject:Re: Some concerns about 18th century footrims
Posted By: JLim Fri, Dec 01, 2017




Dear Bill

Yes, Allen says that some of the rims changed during the 18th century and others did not. That is to say, "belt rim" dishes could date to any part of the 18th century, whereas "knife rim" dishes can only postdate c.1750.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: Some concerns about 18th century footrims
Posted By: JLim Mon, Dec 04, 2017



Dear Bill

To prevent for various reasons, I think it would be plainer simply to quote the passage I am talking about on p271 of the 1st ed of "Detection Of Fakes":

"At some point in the eighteenth century, probably late in the second quarter, the shape (profile) of some of the plates changed from a raised foot rim (Fig 30.1.4a [a "belt rim" being pictured]) to a recessed base (Fig 30.1.5a [a "knife rim" being pictured]); the latter leaving a narrow band of unglazed body. I stress the word SOME, because both types continued to be produced until the end of the Qing dynasty..."

I read this passage as meaning that the "knife rim" of Fig 30.1.5a was an innovation of the late second quarter of the 18th century. That is, both types of rim continued to be produced thereafter, but only the "belt rim" was produced prior to c.1750.

I am starting to think that this passage cannot possibly mean what it seems to be saying; for even within the same book I can find at least four examples of images that seem to contradict the principle being stated. For example, on p144,Fig 18.1.3b shows an apparent "knife rim" plate dated early second quarter 18th century; and on p143 another apparent "knife rim" plate is dated first quarter 18th century.

I hope you can understand my confusion at the above quote.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: Some concerns about 18th century footrims
Posted By: m Tue, Dec 05, 2017

Thank you for posting this topic. A novice, I don't have books yet, except for an eBook of marks. I have read posts by Mr. Allen, and other experts, and find them to be both knowledgeable and careful. Because it is still new to me, I seem to have to go back and read things several times before I "begin" to comprehend the topic.
Someone very kindly gave me their opinion that the attached pictures are 18th century, early. Not in as good shape, but thought would pass along in case it might be of interest (pair but since the same only posted one).







Subject:Re: Some concerns about 18th century footrims
Posted By: Bill H Tue, Dec 05, 2017

The design shown is a variation of the Rose Medallion export pattern. The earliest true Rose Medallion dishes were produced in the 1850's, and the apparently misfired piece you show here was made circa the late fourth quarter of the 19th century or subsequently. Such plates having a wide, low-beveled foot around a countersunk center with traces of grit in the bottom glaze are rather typical of the late 19th century.

I include below for comparison images from my catalog of another circa 1885 Rose Medallion "landscape" variant dish, 7.75 inches in diameter, without the condition issues of yours.

Best regards,

Bill H.



Subject:Re: Some concerns about 18th century footrims
Posted By: m Wed, Dec 06, 2017

Thank you for correcting that. I want to emphasize that the error was mine, not theirs. It was several years ago, and in hindsight, it was 1800s, early I suspect.


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