Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Reply Message
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:re -send photos
Posted By: plasticman Thu, Jan 11, 2018 IP: 24.205.81.2

I don't know if photos were sent,therefore I am resending them.

Subject:Re: re -send photos
Posted By: plasticman Fri, Jan 12, 2018

hope



Subject:Re: re -send photos
Posted By: Bill H Sat, Jan 13, 2018

In His latest Book, "Allen's Antique Chinese Porcelain - The Detection of Fakes", Tony Allen states that in general, a four-character underglaze blue Kangxi reign mark like the one on your dish indicates a production date after 1870, and usually closer to 1900. Following his admonition that for every rule there's an exception, I would add that a Mainland-published compendium of historical porcelain markings does show a few popular kiln dishes with four-character Kangxi marks that listed as period, though some look to me very much like Guangxu-period "Kangxi Revival" dishes, which are lauded in the West for their great fidelity to period form and decoration. Examples of such Guangxu-era Kangxi-style wares from my collection are shown herewith.

So the bottom line is not to give up on the general rule quite yet of underglaze blue four-character Kangxi marks indicating late 20th century or subsequent production.

Best regards,

Bill H.





Subject:4 character marks
Posted By: plasticman Mon, Jan 15, 2018

Thank you Bill.In his book "Chinese Export Porcelain" Lunsingh Scheurleer has a chapter on marks. He does demonstrate what he feels are legit 4 character marks on 18th century porcelain. He even goes on to explain how the 2 characters are removed so that the 4 remaining marks are shifted in their position. If you look at my photos of the obverse side of the plate (see 1st posting ), the cobalt and brushwork details look "period",and the reverse hand painted circles and border designs appear as they should be.It does make a case for the violation of a 'rule".

Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: Bill H Tue, Jan 16, 2018

I haven't read the Lunsingh Scheurleer book, but there's no doubt that many porcelains with four-character Kangxi marks exist, as they are pictured in Palace Museum and other Mainland China and Taiwan publications. The vast majority of them are on imperial wares, with probably just a handful appearing on dishes from popular kilns (minyao).

Tony Allen, again cautioning how exceptions may exist, cites another general rule in his most recent book regarding fake Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong reign marks. This one holds that they didn't appear on the scene until the Guangxu era (1875-1908).

I can see reason to believe this, because when one of these emperors died, Confucian ethic demanded continued respect and reverence not only from their subjects but by sons and successors. Reign marks were strictly regulated at the time, and there simply was no wiggle room in Lese Majeste codes for posthumously disrespecting any of these "High Qing" emperors, including abuse of their reign marks. You've got to figure, if the Qianlong emperor was willing to retire early so he wouldn't rule longer than his grandfather, he probably wouldn't mind ordering heads chopped off for any perceived offense to that same grandpa.

Ming reign marks were fair game, since apocryphal use of them actually had begun during the Ming period and continued into the Qing era to satisfy the thirst of the aristocracy for "official old wares" in their porcelain collections. But if anyone was caught was an imperial dish that wasn't awarded to them by the emperor, they were subject to execution.

I don't want to steal any of Tony Allen's thunder, but I have doubts about whether there was any sizable proliferation of four-character Kangxi marks after 1680, when official wares other than ritual types were first produced and the Imperial Kangxi mark came into general use. It is my impression that the six-character version was the principal mark in use during this early period. Also, I've never seen any indication that the use of Kangxi markings of either kind were the rule for export wares.

So all things considered, with a four-character underglaze blue mark on your dish, the best chance is still going to be that it was made for export in the late 19th or early 20th century, at a time when Chinese domestic porcelain consumption was driving the practice of adding apocryphal marks of everybody's favorite ancestral emperor to the base.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: plasticman Thu, Jan 18, 2018

I was ready to give up on 4 character marks and authentic 18th century porcelain when I thought to scan a book I got in Taipei. This is one put out as the"Masterworks of Chinese porcelain in the National Palace Museum". In the back of the book are reign marks that correspond to the porcelains shown in color. There are at least three examples of 4 character reign marks from throughout the 18th century. I am not assured the "rule" holds a great deal of water.

Post a Reply
Name:
Email:
Group: China & Japan
Subject:
Message:
Link URL:
Enter here the complete URL of any site, page or image you would like to show other visitors.
URL Title:
Enter here the title of the link you've given above. This will appear to the visitor. Eg., if you are linking another picture, enter "Another picture". The link will not appear without a title.
Image URL:
Enter here the URL of an image if it is already uploaded on the web. The image will appear with your posting. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post.
Image: You may upload up to three images. If you would like to upload more images to this message please do so by replying to this same message.

Please make sure the file type is JPEG or GIF and the filename does not contain spaces.





Use the Browse button to find an image (jpg or gif) on a local drive on your computer to upload for including with your message. Do not upload images with file names containing spaces. Please do not upload files larger than 500 KB in size. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post. Check the "email notification" box below if you would like to be notified of any responses to your message.
Check here for email notification.
Security Code: Security Image: please enter the text appears in this image.

Please type in the code you see in the image directly above this input box.

Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: Bill H Fri, Jan 19, 2018

After some fruitless searching through museum catalogs, I finally dredged up the passage I was looking for, within Liu Liang-yu's volume on "Ch'ing Official and Popular Wares", which is No. 5 in his series called "A Survey of Chinese Ceramics". Definitely heavy reading at just under eight pounds.

For those who may not have heard of him, Liu distinguished himself in the field of Chinese ceramics over the years, having once been on the staff of the Palace Museum in Taipei and later moving to the Chinese Cultural University at Yangmingshan. His positions have afforded him virtually unparalleled access to the collections of the Taipei Palace Museum, and since the thaw in relations, entrée to collections in Beijing's Gugong as well.

I was introduced to him by a mutual friend in Taipei when I was working there in the 1980s, and as a result, managed to garner an invitation to visit his studio. It was as much a laboratory, as he had a small kiln there, which he was using at the time to refire pieces from his blue & white shard collection to get a better idea of the tones of the cobalt during various periods.

In the Qing survey, Liu addresses four-character marks on K'ang-hsi official ware separately, saying: "Normally speaking, marks on K'ang-hsi official ware occur in one of three colours - red, blue or black. Enamel painted ware is only known to bear red or blue marks in enamel colours, hence enamel painted ware bearing a cobalt blue mark is not considered very reliable."

Liu then proceeds to separately categorize underglaze blue cobalt marks on blue & white official wares of the Kangxi Reign, all of which marks are six-character.

So I believe Liu succinctly says that dishes with four-character underglaze blue cobalt marks cannot be Kangxi official wares and should be viewed with suspicion. Unfortunately, the Chinese Language compendium of marks I've previously mentioned doesn't say if the four-character minyao marks it has for the Kangxi period are over-glaze or underglaze, though they all appear to be typical cobalt.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: plasticman Sat, Jan 20, 2018

The marks on the piece in question appear to be not Kangxi, but Xianlong. Am I off base in my interpretation?

Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: Bill H Sun, Jan 21, 2018

I've never seen a Kangxi mark of any type attributed to the Qianlong era. The mark on your plate, in my opinion, is consistent with others found among the myriad that came with the Kangxi Renaissance porcelains of the late 19th - early 20th century, such as these circa 1900 kraak-type dishes.

Best regards,

Bill H.



Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: plasticman Wed, Jan 24, 2018

This illustration from the National Museum in Taipei is listed as being from a Xianlong reign porcelain. There is one more of similar description on another page I did not include here. Please tell me to drop this pursuit into territory that I have no knowledge or education to continue in, before I make more of a fool of myself.



Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: Bill H Thu, Jan 25, 2018

Pardon my failure to realize it, but we've been talking down divergent paths. The mark on the image you posted at the top of this thread on January 11 reads down and across from the top right as "Made during the Kangxi Reign" (Kangxi Nian Zhi - 康熙年製). The image you posted immediately above on January 24 also reads down and across from the top right, but it says "Made during the Qianlong Reign" (Qianlong Nian Zhi - 乾隆年製).

"Xianlong" may be a typo in your Taiwan source material, because the Taiwan transliteration of the relevant emperor's name would usually be spelled out as "Ch'ien-lung'. The Qianlong (in Beijing-speak) or Ch'ien-lung (in Taiwan-speak) Emperor ruled from 1736-1795. His grandfather, the Kangxi Emperor, ruled from 1662-1722. All of the images I posted in response to your original query show illustrations with apocryphal late 19th century Kangxi Revival marks. None of them are Qianlong marks.

I wouldn't feel foolish. The greater purpose of the forum is to learn something new, I believe.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: plasticman Fri, Jan 26, 2018

Thank you Bill. Of course you are right. My reading of the 4 character marks discloses my ignorance of their meaning, not just their number.I must learn to read Chinese. Doing the research was fun, even if I had a poor perception of the marks. I should probably stick with my prime area of concern, armorial porcelain.I now have over 230 pieces and would be happy to share any photos that would aid a correspondent.

Subject:Re: 4 character marks
Posted By: Bill H Sat, Jan 27, 2018

And I certainly remain indebted for all the help you've given me in that "Field of Shields", thanks.

Bill H.


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |