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Subject:3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Tue, Jul 30, 2019 IP: 126.244.156.69

Hi,
We just wandered in Yanaka, Ginza this morning and stumbled upon a jumble sale and a fairly big,heavy solid wood frame containing a japanese picture caught our eye. At 500 yen, this was not going to be a waste. We weighed the frame, which was way too bulky and heavy to fit in our suitcases. So we asked the sellers to open the frame and could we only purchase the print. They had to unscrew maybe 10 screws and inside we found layers of frame filling, some of them having extra prints on them! We got the 3 prints for 700 yen and left the frame behind. My husband says they are only prints but they are stamped, and the paper stuck on the wood is definitely old and feeling like Japanese washi paper. We cannot read the signature, can anyone identify this??? I am only guessing that there were 3 prints for 4 seasons because 4 is an unlucky number in Japan?
Any help would be appreciated ;)
Thanks!!




Link :Japanese prints bought second hand in Tokyo


Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: manuD Wed, Jul 31, 2019

this looks more like a Chinese album leaf, the format, the composition, the house on stilts with an open gabel at the top, the four collector seals. Only the posture of the person is odd. And of course it bears only a pale resemblance to the attached album leaf.

Maybe rat can comment on this?

Also, better resolution images of the three prints might help.



Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: I.Nagy Fri, Aug 02, 2019

Yes, this is a cut out album-leaf.
Signature,
唐棣畫 - Picture of Tang Di

Tang Di 唐棣 1287-1335
Chinese landscape painter under the Yuang Dynasty.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Sat, Aug 03, 2019

Hello Mr Nagy,
Thank you for all the info!!
My last questions are:
Are cut out album leafs copies? Not originals I presume?
Are those cut outs valuable at all?
Thank you!!
:)
Gaelle

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: manuD Sat, Aug 03, 2019

thank you Mr. Nagy. I posted this image to compare with the one to be identified, but didnt know the artist, so am grateful for the information.

Since there are no seals on the two other prints posted, I assume that the four ones on the first print are collector seals.

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Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Stan Wed, Jul 31, 2019

Since no one else attempted to answer this one, I'll take a shot. I believe the print is Chinese. My google image search seems to point to Shen Zhou (a Ming painter). Possibly a copy or derivative of his work. Whether or not this is true, I don't know. I'll let one of our experts like rat or I. Nagy correct me.

Clear enlargements of the seals will help in identification.

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Thu, Aug 01, 2019

Hi Stan,
Thank you, I will put pictures up tomorrow asap!
Gaelle

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Fri, Aug 02, 2019

Hi,

I posted like 4 messages, containing the pictures of the seals and of the 3 prints.
If they don't show up on the thread let me know!
Gaelle

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Fri, Aug 02, 2019

Hi All,

Here you go, let me know what you think!
Gaelle





Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: I.Nagy Sat, Aug 03, 2019

Upper seal reads,
茝林審定 - Examined and approved by Chailin

Chailin 茝林 was the courtesy name of Liang Zhangju 梁章鉅 1775-1849、politician, poet, calligrapher and artist.

Lower seal is not clear enough to decipher.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Fri, Aug 02, 2019

Hi All again,
as the number of pics and their size are consequent I had to do multiple replies.
The pics are as clear as I could get them considering the age of the paper.
None of my japanese friends or even hotel staff can read the seals, everyone says they are "old Japanese characters".
Thanks!
Gaelle



Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: I.Nagy Sat, Aug 03, 2019

Upper (Leisure) seal,
 楊斎至精之盟 - Yang Zhai makes a fine alliance
Yang Zhai could be an art--name
Lower seal,
潘廷齢印 - Seal of Pan Ting Ling
Pan Ting Ling was a colector in the 1850s from Panyu (Guandong).

Dear Gaelle, reading of seal script itself is an "art" wich requires quite a long study and experience. Ordinary Chinese or Japanese cannot read seals.

The other concern is how much "vintage"are your Chinese prints. From the zoom-up pictures they look not like old ones.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Fri, Aug 02, 2019

Here are the prints...





Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Stan Sat, Aug 03, 2019

Check out this eBay page:

https://picclick.com/Chinese-painting-scroll-The-Nanjing-Museum-Shen-zhou-142823273943.html

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Sun, Aug 04, 2019

Hi All (Stan, Mr Nagy and ManuD)

Ok, thank you! We certainly made a good deal as I can see and pleased that we have something unique. My husband has a good eye for antiques, just like his mother.:)
We are very grateful for your help!

Just to recap:

-Paintings are by Chinese Artist Tang Di (Yuan Dynasty)
-1 signature seal from the artist and 3 collector seals (are the seals a copy or real seals??)
- Paintings don't look old, and are cut out album leaves, plus glued on wood which probably brings their value down?
-Art name could be Yang Zhai
-The name of the collector (owner of the prints?) is Pan Tin Ling
-Prints examined and certified by Chailin

Is this correct?

Thank you!
Gaelle

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: I.Nagy Sun, Aug 04, 2019

Dear Gaelle,
As, Stan kindly found by picture-search the originals of the two last pictures, are in the Nanjing Museum of Fine Arts - therefore, yours are only museum repros with colectors seals etc. sold on eBay.
As of the first Tang Di picture, I don't know where its original is, but surely in one of the great Chinese museums. If it is not a cut out album page it is a museum repro applied on wood panel.
Anyway, for ¥ 700 was a good deal.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Stan Sun, Aug 04, 2019

Gaelle,

I think you are misinterpreting the information provided. My interpretation of I. Nagy's information is that the seals are collectors seals. No artist information is provided. Tang Di is the artist of the print posted by ManuD.

The eBay link I provided says: "Shen zhou, Chinese famous Ming dynasty painter. “falling flowers” is the representative work of the painter. Describe a poet by the falling flowers tree in the autumn. the replica painting is authorized by the Nanjing museum, limited edition." This means your middle print is a reproduction of a scroll painting by Shen Zhou in the Nanjing Museum. The source and age of your print are unknown. From my image searching, my guess is that your first print is also a reproduction of a painting by Shen Zhou, but I can't be certain.

Disclaimer: This is not my area of expertise and I defer to rat and I. Nagy.

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Mon, Aug 05, 2019

Hi,
Ahhh ok thank you!!!
They are repros by a possible Ming painter called Shen Zou. Ok.🤣
Yes I guess they were a good deal indeed. Thank you!!!!! For everything.
Gaelle

Subject:Re: 3 Japanese prints bought in Tokyo second hand vintage
Posted By: Gaelle Clarke Fri, Aug 02, 2019

And the last one




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