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Hi, Can anyone comments about the authentic and price of this piece. There are two cups with the same design and made of gold. Size is 3 inches high.

Tom-

The shape and pattern of design are done after Sassanian silver types with a Persian influence. These are made in China during the Tang dynasty (618-907 A.D.). From the photos, they appear to be heavily gold gilt over silver, possilbly gilded later than the period suggested. Your wine cups if confirmed authentic by Sotheby's or Christie's auction experts would fetch a fair sum.

Ed

The ring handle is Sogdian in influence, I have seen plainer Sogdian gold wares similar without the high Tang influence

The Sogdians were present at the Dunhuang caves as can be attested by documents found written in Sogdian.


nick

If right as pointed out above a fair value.

The Sogdian Colony in Dunhuang.

The Han sources reporting on Inner Asia make particular note of the trading acumen of Sogdians, the ethnically Iranian merchants from Transoxiana. There is abundant evidence in documents, histories and petroglyphs that their trading activities from their homeland stretched as far as Luoyang (the "eastern" capital of China), north into Mongolia, and down into what today is Pakistan via the Hunza Valley. They were active on both the northern and southern branches of the Silk Road around the Tarim Basin. the chronological range of the evidence about the Soghdians in the East is from around the third century BCE to the eighth century CE. It should be no surprise that there seems to have been a sizeable colony of Sogdians at Dunhuang, dating from at least the early fourth century, when it probably numbered as many as 1000. Even on the eve of the Soghdians' dispersion or absorption into the local population in the mid-eighth century, they numbered some 300 households with an estimated 1400 individuals. It appears that the colony had increased in the early seventh century due to recent arrivals from Trasoxiana, since many of the residents have both Turkic and Sogdian names.

During much of their time in Dunhuang, the Sogdians seem to have been occupied largely in trade-related activities--either as agents in a network of Sogdian merchants or connected with the administration of trade and foreign merchants. The fourth century documents make it clear that they had direct contacts with Samarkand, and there is at least indirect evidence they probably had direct involvement with the trade south to India. Sims-Williams postulates a "triangle" of trade, where one side was the Tarim Basin route, a second the north Pakistan one, and the third from north Pakistan back to Transoxiana. the existence of such connections would help to explain why in the mid-5th century, a Chinese ambassador on his way to Samarkand traveled via the Hunza Valley, where he left an inscription on the Rock of Hunza. The early documents are fragmentary and clearly do not mention all the products of interest for this trade (notably, silk is absent), but among those that are listed are gold, musk, pepper, camphor, cloth of hemp or flax, and wheat

During much of their time in Dunhuang, the Sogdians seem to have been occupied largely in trade-related activities--either as agents in a network of Sogdian merchants or connected with the administration of trade and foreign merchants. The fourth century documents make it clear that they had direct contacts with Samarkand, and there is at least indirect evidence they probably had direct involvement with the trade south to India. Sims-Williams postulates a "triangle" of trade, where one side was the Tarim Basin route, a second the north Pakistan one, and the third from north Pakistan back to Transoxiana. the existence of such connections would help to explain why in the mid-5th century, a Chinese ambassador on his way to Samarkand traveled via the Hunza Valley, where he left an inscription on the Rock of Hunza. The early documents are fragmentary and clearly do not mention all the products of interest for this trade (notably, silk is absent), but among those that are listed are gold, musk, pepper, camphor, cloth of hemp or flax, and wheat

The Sogdians by the late 8th century were assimilated into the Chinese households.

Nick

There is enough archaeological evidence in the Dunhuang caves and with knowledge that the Sogdians were traders in the materials to date the cups to the earlier Sui dynasty. Some of the lotus thrones of this period are hexagonal shaped etc.

The signicance the 8 points representing in Buddhism the 8 great events in the life of the Buddha but use in Islam is to represent the 8 paradises.

The possibility is Sui dynasty.

Hi Tom,

As for the value, Tang or Sui, and as a pair, such items can be bought for minimum 25K US$.
See attached a similar Tang piece I bought for 9K US$ a few years ago.

Each time I see these wares they are invaribly described as Tang.

All the elements are already in place prior to the Tang and comparisons need to be made with existing examples. More importantly comparison with the murals etc at Dunhuang and other cave areas.


Is there any chance of close ups of the animals of the second post.



On the second piece can be seen an early development of the cartouche of Islam, which appears in all its full glory on the sword of the Prophet Mohammed.

This is the earliest date I have seen this particular feature.

I can see the second post of these wares been earlier than Sui.

Not evident in the second post, do the individual animals themselves contain line decoration within them other than the wing lines.

Nick

Hi Nick,
Here are an additional couple of pics, as requested.
Do you suggest this could be a 6 dy piece?
To my small knowledge in this kind of artwork, that period was not known for fine goldsmith work. Therefore it was labeled has Tang I guess.

Hi, I add another picture of the inside of the cups. Do you think it's a fake cause it's quite thick and heavy to be gold in that period.

Hi Tom,
First question in the quest is:
-Is the style/design of the object in accordance with a period?
According to Nick, it is of Sui dy style.

-Is the material used correct?
In other words, is it 24K gold?
Any good jewellery shop should be able to tell you.
A picture doesn not tell the all story. If the pics reflect the real color, the gold seems to be quite pale for 24K.
All the old gold pieces I have seen are of 24K. If this one is 18K or less, I would say it is not an old object.

- If the answers of the two above questions are positive, a macroscopic study of the piece should reveal the natural aging process,corosion etc...
I believe it is worth having this done, those 2 pieces are important if genuine.

A jeweller can test for gold carat.

As to form style and decoration and therefore dating is going to be a matter of simple
comparison.

I have learnt a valuble lesson over the last couple of weeks.

I have a post going on a Buddha Nirvan, when I first obtained it I was quite struck by the manner in which the figuers were delinated and thought that there was quite a familiarity to the figures of the Northern Wei.

Due to the drapery and shape of pillow I thought Tang. 2 years later I,m back were I should of been looking instead of 1200 years away.

As to patination of an item, it requires to be in hand for comment to be made. Every bronze has its own distinct patination, especially from 1st millenium, you wont find two with the same.

All I can now suggest is looking at the art of the Dunhuang cave area and research into the Sogdians and there culture as it these peoples who are trading picking up the influences. Those who we call Sogdians were an Iranian tribe and therefore those who would bring the taste of Persia to the area.

I have looked at a couple of thousand photo's of the Shanxi cave area's and instinct tells me that the elements to make Tom's piece in is there well before Tang dynasty. The cups base hexagonal form is a feature used in the lotus thrones of the Sui dynasty, not the later Tang.

The photos above you cannot and should not determine patination, each has different lighting conditions, one looks to be taken in very bright light etc.

In the next couple of weeks, I should be receiving a decent set of books with decent photos in of the caves.

When they arrive I will start having a look and see between which dates stylistically the items date to in form and decoration.

For Tom, could you tell me the animals present in each vignette please. Thats what I wanted pictures of as the caves are littered with different forms. Any details that I can get from your items will assist.

Here would be good place to start.

www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Art/SogdianPearl.htm

Nick

This attached picture is the famous Sogdian pearl roundel which has been looked at, talked about for many years.

Here is my way of looking at this piece.

Its form is in the Master of Animals motif dating back to the dawn of civilization at Ur and Babylon.

The roundel always has 20 pearls, note the squares. Thats 24 elements (1 day).

Now the squares themselves, squares within squares.

Now look between the legs of the deers at the stepped square structure. Now equate then to the outer squares and what you have in effect is a representation of a paridisical garden, the heavens round with square shaped representations of the manner in which there temples were built.

One at each compass direction, and it is typical Classic of Changes. N, S, E, W and Centre as seen on Han bronzes. Shang Bronzes, jades and every type of art especially imperial.

The point that the squares at the edge of the roundels represent the building between the legs has never been proposed before.


These roundels are invaribly seen with different animal motifs which why Iv'e asked for the animals.

Most religions of an ancient nature worshipped the directions.


Nick

I@ll have to come back and post the picture. Ahh cant find it.

Here we go

Note ow there is not much difference in the basic iconography between this and lotus thrones


Nick

If you draw out the square in 2D, a nest of 3, you come with the temple shape between the legs.

Note in this one the squares are reduced to two then the form of the vase.

The Lotus, a Buddhist representation of purity and representative of the lily ability to seed itself in water.

The roundels are being used as a medium to transmit a message. In this case its Buddhist.

They say to me. This is our world order N S E W and C, from this where the purity of life comes from. The pearls the sun.

This attached piece to me is Buddhist and made for the Buddhist market of the period.


Note how they are reducing the square from 3 to 2 when depicting different forms.

1. A temple
2. A vase


Nick

These motifs could be described as a Yin Yang symbols of the day as they harmonize beautifully.


A request for help here

Anyone reading this who comes a flaming pearl as associated with the dragon and the archaeological period is Han dynasty and the item is dated archaeologically then could you please contact me with date please and reference.
E.G Bronze mirrors.

Nick

Here is a reference of litterature: Erik Engel, Chinese Gold and Silver from the Carl Kempe Collection, The Museum of Art and Far Eastern Antiquities in Ulricehamn. I do not believe there was much difference in the design strata of the time table between the Sui and Tang dynasties. Although, the silver and gold designs were influenced by numerous sources along the silk trade route as was mentioned above.

Ed


-

The influences coming through trade over a number of centuries from the south are archaemenid, sassananian, sogdian.

These wares are very much made I think at Dunhuang with the Sogdians trading in gold ingot, not the wares themselves. I can find no trade examples which would could suggest that they were made to order. The records do not indicate any orders of such wares.

The form and style can be found at the periods concerned. I.ve seen a few wares not made for this market and they are simpler. They develop as most plastic art does simple, bit more, bit more, lets overdecorate and go over the top etc.


Pearl Roundels.

In a book of Amaravti sculpture is a pair of footprints of the Buddha.

On each foot at each toe joint is an eye. 20 per foot. So if you tranfer 20 to the number of pearls in the roundel then not only as described above in a Buddhist context but also represents the footprint of the Buddha among other things.

The above is only supposition at the minute, but makes sence to me. I dont know the full significance of the 20 eyes on the footprint yet.

I have a project I think nearly drawing to a close. The origins of the flaming pearl and its meaning initially.

nick.

It was quite funny I could not understand why 20 pearls in the roundel. All the roundels have 20 pearls.

And out of the tree of life i'll just pick me a plum.

I'm off to look for stepped temple structures.

nick.

Nick-

It's a long shot, but I wonder if there is a connection with the eyes of heaven?


Ed

Silly me not only is there 24 hours in a day, the Chinese also split there year into 24 eqauls parts, which wer the points where the sun is passing through the different signs of the zodiac.

Although you'll see 12 these days there is 24 named zodiac constellations.


s to the 20 eyes on the toe joints of the Buddha footprint of the Buddha, still pondering but it will come with time and it will have a significance that is recorded. The sculpture it is from is the Amaravati Great Stupa, purely Indian. So the Rig Veda should perhaps give some idea.

Hang on I think I just cracked that piece of jewellry from the Met.

nick

I think I have found a possible solution to the eyes on the feet of the Amaravati sculpture.

The sculpture depicts two soles of two feet. On each foot at the joints in each toe is an eye.

A total of 40.

The Buddha taught for 40 years. So each eye is a representation of one year of the teaching of Buddha. One foot is 20. It is usual for the footprint to be found in isolation. So 20 eyes.

I think that they have used in the Icon at the Met an arrangement of 20 each side to represent a footprint of the Buddha, 4 x 20 is 80, then number of years the Buddha lived for.


The description of the icon is getting better and better.

Follow the footprints of the Buddha on the eightfold path to enlightenment using 40 years of teaching.
The icon is Mahayana Buddhist. Using iconography to attain the 8 foldpath is Mahayana Buddhism.

Should I put that in the Oh dear post, Or should I let them work it out for themselves?

The purity of the icon would suggest an imperial piece.


there should also be 423 individual design elements in the icon. Number of verses in Dhramapada.

Its a pity the piece is incomplete as each type of dirrerent element type or design the totals would have some significance to the life of the Buddha.

29 enforced deprevation.
37 aged attained enlightenment.
80 death
101 scriptures.
225 commentaries.

etc, etc, etc,

regards


nick

I thik I hit the nail on the head on the head with regard to the jewelry which should apply here in one of the roundels. Square temples of graduated squares are not in an abundance. So where these types of Temple were is where these textiles were bound for or produced. The square temple could be Mahayana Buddhist (square earth temple, earth Buddha) etc.

Just a thought. But could indicate what the destroyed temples looked like.

Darius had a stepped tomb???

These pictureas are temple shapes.

Note the postioning of the doors.

Its not hard to see these in the pearl roundels.

The earliest extant Monastery in China is in Shandong and dates to 6th cenentury of square form.

Again the doorways at the four directions.

It looks as those the pearl roundels Buddhist based with Chinese mythological scenes in some cases. In one roundel is a pair of birds with 3 claws.
The 3 claw bird in the Sun, often showed paired.

Some aticles as above credit the Sohdians with the diffussion of these, makes sence on the Silk road.

Interestingly there is a Stupa/Temple at Mohenjo daro of the round form. Its use as temple predates Buddhism by 1500 years. Brahmans, vedic culture in an early form.

The tree in the pearl roundels with 7 leaves, Buddhist. It reprsents the paradisical garden.

There is also a square seal at Mohenjo daro,a tree with two animal either side, similar to the later pearl roundels. The garden at this point is known as Nandanu, Nirvana.

The Lord of Herds, Pasupati, Rudra, Shiva, constellation Sirrius, the deer hunter very much the prognitor of the Master of Animals motif, the names are all one and the same Diety in proto Vedic,Vedic Hindu, Buddhism, Zoroastianism etc.

I'm looking for when Istar (Astar) entered Cancer, innundation. Azura Mazda.

The pearl was referred to by Buddha as the
"The Wishful Filling Pearl"

Nick

I've seen some of these wares in the art at Dunhuang.
I will at somepoint look at the dating of the caves involved.
The impression is that the Hexagonal type is Sui dynasty as it was used extensively in the thrones.

Each cave has to be looked at in an individual way as most of the caves have art from different periods and some even obliterated and redone with all kinds of mixtures.
It will take a little while. Theres no point using photos as I,m reducing from 8Meg to 100K.

Nick.

Hello there!

Thank you for an interesting debate, I have one question for you ... who knows why every animal or bird on top is attached to the beads for 20 pieces? This bowl I've had for over 20 years.
Where can I inquire more about this bowl?

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