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This plate was sent to an East Coast dealer for "academic" study purposes only. The dealer thought this was made before 1644. There seem to be many plates with such design. What period was this one made? Thanks for sharing your expertise.

Hallo Chris,

First sight.... it looks very nice painted, but looking at the dragon (forget the back for the moment)I think there is more chanche of it being Guangxu than Ming or earlier. Those earlier dragons had radial claws (like spokes in a wheel). This one has: (later) thumb at one site three other claws at the other. The heads of Ming-dragons looked a little bit like "Goofy" and the Kangxi examples often more scared than scary, This one is of much later periode I think.
The backside looks to have a kind of brown dressing. If this plate is porcelain than I think this plate is probably 20th century when they put on these dressings just to make it look old. Hope to be corrected if I'm wrong by other members.

regards,
Arjan

No this is after Ming. Early 19th century from a South Chinese Fujian kiln.

Chris, Your plate has characteristics in common with wares produced in southern China during the 19th century for domestic consumption and export to Overseas Chinese markets. Also, the manner of drawing the dragon scales, as noted in Anthony J. Allen's "Introduction to Later Chinese Porcelain," typifies the late Qing style in its crosshatch and dot design.

I've encountered this same "Dragon over the Border" design on 19th century Chinese export dishes but don't happen to have on on the shelf. However, I've included relevant photos of another export dish in the popular underglaze blue and red "Leaping Carp" motif. Your plate's form, glazing and potting, as well as the presence of characters etched into its cavetto, are all mirrored on the 19th century carp plate.

Jean McClure Mudge illustrates a couple of plates in the carp pattern as figures 301 and 302 of her 1986 book, "Export porcelain in North America." She presumes they were produced in Guangdong Province, and I've also seen or heard mention of the kiln center at Dehua, Fujian Province, as another possible manufacturing site.

A Ming dating for your plate seems out of the question, considering the dragon scales and how well the piece compares to the 19th century export wares. Mudge describes the carp plate in her figure 301 as of "rough domestic/export" quality, with a late 19th century dating. Figure 302, however, is the same pattern but "better executed; above-average domestic/export" made circa 1820-60. Your plate's decoration also might have merited the latter characterization when new.

I've come upon quite a bit of conjecture regarding why characters were etched into dishes like this. A leading hypothesis is that they are the names or marks of owners. The twist that seems most logical to me, though, is that such owners largely were restaurateurs, who were "initialing" their dishes to reduce losses.

Theft and pilferage could have been part of the rationale for defacing a dish, but the greater consideration may have rested on the fact that most Chinese restaurants didn't have running water in the 19th century. Dirty dishes were taken to nearest stream to be washed. Since many restaurants might have the same pattern of tablewares, marking them in this manner would've precluded a lot of "mistaken identity" arguments that otherwise might have arisen at the communal dishwashing site.

Initials etched into the cavetto seem to have implications vis-a-vis the antiquity of such dishes as well. I've seen numerous on-line sellers assign these "initialed" 19th century carp plates a Ming dating. It is virtually inconceivable to me that anyone in Qing times would deface a nice Ming dish, considering how much the Manchus doted on Ming porcelain, and most evidence I've seen would seem to suggest that etching dishes in this manner was primarily a practice of late Qing and subsequent restaurant owners.

Regards,

Bill H

"Over-the-wall dragon" plates are usually Yongzheng to Qianlong period during Qing dynasty. The powerful dragon painting style suggests more likely Yongzhe peroid. Qianlong pieces are little less aggressive IMHO.

I agree with Ian (Pyromaniac) this is early 19th century. Whether it came from Jingdezhen or a South Chinese kiln I am uncertain.

Thanks for your replies. Really appreciate them. I'm a novice. Guangxu porcelain quality was not bad. People seems to complain about the rigidity of Guangxu's designs. Can't absolutely rule out this is a later piece. In this case, it is unlikely as this has been in a collector's hand for a while. Additionally, the artistry of this piece seems to be different from that of timid imitations quite a bit.

Vietnamese I think.

The most rational explanation I have been told for these marks is that they were those of the owner.
When there was a big wedding or festival or funeral, the village residents and/or relatives combined their crockery. The marks meant the owners could retrieve the crockery at the conclusion of festivities.

Here is a very similar "Over-the-wall dragon" plate dated to Yongzhe by a Chinese book. By early 19th century, the dragon design become very weak just like the Qing Dynasty ( right before the first opium war). I will also post a dated DaoGuang period plate for comparison. IMHO, large number of the "Over-the-wall dragon" plates are from Jindezhen.

Anyone know the value of these? I actually have one of each in the office which I picked up years ago on a buying trip with a customer... Last time I was in Hong Kong they were selling on Hollywood road at a "supposedly reputable" dealer, for around 6000 HKD or so...

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