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Can anyone tell me anything about this bronze desk seal or translate the script? I've reversed the script image so that it can be read normally. The script appears to be Zhuanshu or Li shu. The seal dates back at least to the 19th century if not before. I believe it is a treasure seal for an emperor or an emperor's deputy.

I don't think that this is any kind of real seal. I think it is a tourist trade item. And I certainly don't think it ever belonged to an emperor or emperor's deputy.

My reasons are:

1. The calligraphy is distorted and inaccurate. Imperial seals are usually carved by the finest artists, and such sloppy work would have brought down dire consequences for someone brave or stupid enough to present this to an emperor.

2. The large Buddha head would have made using the seal both awkward and disrespectful. It is considered in extreme bad taste to hold or handle any sacred representation by the head or face - yet you see westerners doing it all the time.

3, The detailing of the carving is also crude, the modeling of the ear for example looks as if it was done in a hurry to get the figure out for casting as fast as possible.

Hello,

Let's do a bit of practical thinking about this one:

Would you use the head of your God and bash it on a piece of paper?

Do you think it is practical to handle? I mean, fits well in your hand?

Do you see any trace of ink on the script of the seal, between the characters specially?

I leave it to you to answer those questions.

As far as the material is concerned, I don't see any trace of natural corrosion, only some green stuff created artificially for the piece to look of some age.

Sorry, but this is a typical tourist souvenir, nothing to do with art nor tradition.

Best regards,
Pierre.

Your asked for a translation.

Two of the characters are completely indecipherable, by both a professional seal carver of ten years experience, and a Chinese art graduate. (1) unknown; (2) you - protect; (3) qin - respect; (4) dian - law; (5) zhao - order; (6) zhen - politics; (7) unknown - not 'mao'; (8) qin - diligent; (9) guo - country; (10) zhi - possesive particle; (11) bao - treasure; (12) yin - seal.

The characters are ill formed and even in some cases incorrect. I agree with Pierre that this is purely for the tourist market.

And I'd prefer that you communicate through the Message Board or the Forum, not through my personal e-mail.

Mike & Pierre: What planet are you living on? People from all religions throughout the ages have used the heads of their deities for all kinds of everyday mundane purposes. The script is �gcrude�h because it is one created specifically for seals and is no longer in use. I just heard from a professional appraiser who said: �gThis is not a reproduction. It is a Chinese bronze seal used to authorize documents and would have been kept on a desk. It was never intended to be carried around like smaller, personal seals. The calligraphy on the base is in ancient Chinese Zhuanshu script, a writing system used only for the written word and never spoken. It is now entirely unused. To translate this is complex and would be very time consuming; we are not a translation service. However it will detail the name of the office from which the sealed document was issued, as a large seal like this was possibly used by government officials or, more probably, a Buddhist temple given the subject matter. This desk seal dates to the 19th century and I value it at $300-$600.�h I also heard from Lei Xue, professor of ancient Chinese art at Columbia University, who translated: �gThe characters are "Tianyou qince shezhengwang qinguo zhi baoyin �V�C�ԍ��������Κ��V����.�g Tianyou: 1. �gblessed by heaven�h; 2. �gthe reign of the Tang Emperor Ai (904-907CE).�h qince: �gimperial granted.�h shezhengwang: �gregent king.�h qinguo: �gserve the state.�h baoyin: �gtreasure seal.�h

Joanne,
Do you know that in the Buddhist world I'm living in on this planet it is an insult touch the head of someone, even these days.
So, to use Buddha's head as a seal is total non sense.
I'm pleased for you that the so called experts have authenticated, translated and evaluated your seal, I'm glad I have nothing to do with them.

At least the two "so-called" experts whom I contacted weren't ARROGANT. Mike and Pierre, I am so grateful that you have deigned to grace me with your lofty opinions. At least this experience has taught me a lesson: to get relic opinions in person and not use the web. I thought Buddhism was supposed to teach respect and courtesy. I will no longer access this Forum. Goodbye.

�People from all religions throughout the ages have used the heads of their deities for all kinds of everyday mundane purposes.�

But as Pierre has patiently pointed out, in the Buddhist world (and I might add the Hindu) it is never allowed to touch the head of someone - even children. And in the handling of sacred images, it is considered the greatest insult and sign of ignorance to pick up or hold an image by the head - something you see often when Westerners pick up Buddhist or Hindu images in markets.

�The script is �crude� because it is one created specifically for seals and is no longer in use.�

This will come as a complete surprise to the hundreds (if not thousands) of artists, calligraphers and sealists who use Zhuanshu in their art on a regular basis.

�The calligraphy on the base is in ancient Chinese Zhuanshu script, a writing system used only for the written word and never spoken. It is now entirely unused.�

What on earth does this mean - a writing system used only for the written word. How is this different from our alphabet?

Also, Zhuanshu is the writing system codified under the reign of QinShiHuangDi, the emperor of the terracotta army fame, who used his authority to bring together all the writing systems in use in the various kingdoms he consolidated into the first unified China; the forms used before this unification are called Da Zhuanshu or greater seal script, while the newer codified forms are known as Xiao Zhuanshu or lesser seal script. And this was achieved somewhere around 200 BCE.

As mentioned before, Zhuanshu is used today by artists and other literati because of its inherent beauty, and in a general love of the antique.

I am quite happy to accept and agree with Professor Liu Xue�s translation of the script. The �Tian� is obscure but could be interpreted as one of the variants. �Ce�, meaning volume is part of the seal script for �Dian� and has a somewhat similar meaning (when you realise that Chinese characters are not �words� but descriptors of concepts). The �Wang� character is definitely irregular; no recorded example I could find had the �tail� descending.

But how can you consider �genuine� a seal which states it is an official mark from a tenth century emperor, but which you accept only dates from the 19th century?

Joanne,
While I cannot speak of the carved script. I would have to agree with Mike and Pierre as to the functional design. I have seen shopkeepers in Thailand, Hong Kong and even in China Town get extremely upset with Caucasian buyers who would pick up a religious statue from a display by the head.
Remembering as well the instructions given to me when I traveled abroad, �never pat a child on the head, it is taken as a grave insult�. This is not unlike what is regarded by Muslims of depictions of Mohammed as being blasphemous.

Jim

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