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I'm trying to identify my Antique Jade Fish Carving and find it's value.... thanks

We need a good sharp close-up of this items, and we like to know the measurements as well. Can you take it out of the frame, as a picture of the backside may be important.
Ernest

It is sealed so I would have to destroy it as it is to remove it but I know it's jade when you look close you can see the matric of the jade not fake lines also you can see the crudeness of the carving as far as the tools they must have used with long crossing lines for fish scales, it is about 2" x 2" I see another reply but it's real jade and naturally aged.... I've seen alot of fakes and know the difference. I was looking for a date.

Dear Steve

It is too far.

It is a coiled fish, modern, may be not nephrite.
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Have fun
Anita Mui

it is a new modern serpentine .i think i can buy it cost $0.5 in China.Zhu

Close ups of I think Jade Fish... notice the metric in the Jade... I am a gem collector and it looks like jade to me.

Here is a better over all close up

This is not the original colour, this has been dipped in dye, and therefore not old.
Only a scratch test will tell if it is Jade
Ernest

Not easy to tell from the close-up pictures because they are so blurred. There is a green tint inside the jade material and the part between its mouth and tail is kind of translucent. If its greenish-yellow color shown on its picture is accurate, I am afraid I have to agree with both Anita and Mr. Zhu that this piece is not made of nephrite and I believe it is made of serpentine, possible bowenite (a harder serpentine). I have seen and tested many pieces of jade carvings made of similar material. Of course, it can be considered as "jade" since the Chinese call it Xiu Yan jade.
(*If you really want to find out what it is made of, you can take it out and perform a specific gravity test. To be nephrite jade, its S.G. has to be at least 2.90 and higher. I think you will probably obtain a S.G. of 2.5 - 2.7 on your jade fish. A hardness or scratch test may not be too much useful if it is made of bowenite. To find a piece of truly yellow nephrite is almost impossible.)

I also do not like the color stains of the jade piece, if it is indeed made of serpentine, it should not have this type of stain and they were possibly made artificially. The carving is just so so and therefore I have to agree with Anita and Mr. Zhu again that this piece has to be modern and there is no purpose to date it. At least the frame seems to be very nice and you seem to enjoy it.

Sorry.

B

Chinese Jade is a Nephrite Jade and goes back some 6000 years in Chinese history. The most common one being Xiu Yan Jade. It comes in various colors, The color of nephrite varies from white, yellow, green and brown to black, depending on the amount of iron substituting for magnesium. Iron-poor tremolite is white, grey or green; whereas iron-rich varieties (actinolite) are darker green, grey-green, and grading though to black. (I can see no die here)
There were also rocks made of both nephrite and serpentine and high quality serpentine (bowenite) were found and used for carving of Hongshan jade artifacts.

Steve
Train your eyes, the dye stuff is visible in the cuts and on the edges!!
Ernest

Steve:

What you said are mostly correct except your first sentence, "Chinese Jade is a nephrite jade". The Chinese definition of jade is "any stones that are beautiful" or more correctly jades are any beautiful stones that possess the five virtues (see my other message posted at the Pipane message). In short, any beautiful stones that are lustrous, pure, beautiful, hard can be called jades such as nephrite, serpentine, turquoise, lapis, agate, etc. According to the Chinese, the only beautiful stone that has all these five virtues is the Hetian jade (nephrite).

I am afraid your piece is not nephrite, may not even be bowenite but just serpentine. I believe you can scratch it with a good pocket knife. The inside of your piece looks light green and not the pale yellow outside. I have only seen two pale yellow nephrite pieces so far after testing over 1,000 jade pieces. Yellow nephrite is much rarer than even white nephrite. Most light yellow jade pieces are serpentine.

I believe you should trust what Ernest, Anita and Mr. Zhu said about your piece although I know it hurts. If you paid too much for it, I suggest you should get a refund from the dealer especially if he sold it to you as an "antique jade" piece.

This is just my personal opinion. Please do not get offended. I have been burnt a few times myself by dishonest dealers and I can understand how you would feel.

Bill
Link URL:

Steve,
This is a nice carving, so I can see why you purchased it. However like the other unbiased opinions I would question its age and probably the material, jade/serpentine/bownite. If it where a sought after quality piece of yellow or muttonfat the carver would not have made �any� stylistic, geometric or uniformity mistakes during the weeks/months that it would have taken him to carve this. As for the age coloring, it�s to uniform to be of a natural occurrence and that may be why it�s in a sealed display.

Jim

Another thing comes to mind. You just don't put antique jade pieces in a picture frame....at least I haven't seen that in my 44 years of jade trading.
Ernest

correction...34 years jade trader...sorry about that
Ernest

First I thank you all for your help only I have been reading allot about this and really just because you think it's died even though I have seen it closer up than you can with a photo and I think it's not died .... it's like a large Ruby in the hands of a poor man the odds are it's fake because of the value but I could tell with a 10 power loop if it's real or fake, I tell you it may be shadows you see because up close you can see the matrix in the stone going through naturally. Have you ever seen the same piece or design before? I would like to see it because I have been looking for quite some time now and nothing. I think it's very old and I am trying to find out just how old it is by the design. Please help with what I am trying to find out. How about the hook in the mouth? also the design on the belly?. As far as the eye I am an artist myself and can see where it works. Let's just give the benefit of a closer look and telling me it's fake is not working for me, I know better. I know all of you are offering help and I do respect that and I am doing even more study and they have been making fakes for thousands of years and they have value also. One thing I'm not selling this piece I'm keeping it... I like it. ( also I can feel the power it gives off, some may know what I mean by that ). I read you could buy 1000 and 10 could be real so I do understand where you are coming from, if I was looking at a photo and with the odds. I would like to find out for sure about the time when it was carved by the design. If it really was a copy there should be lot's more out there and I don't see any.... thanks everyone

"also you can see the crudeness of the carving"
Steve, those are your words. Do yourself a favour, and bring that item back to the one who sold it to you.You wanted advise, now you try to ignore it.
Ernest

Steve:

It is very true that your fish jade carving may be one of a kind and unique. It is also possible that it is indeed very beautiful and shinning like a gem.

In that case you should trust your intuition and simply enjoy the piece.

If you do not believe what members told you in this forum, you should send your piece to a professional jade appraiser and have them dated and appraised the piece for you. You will have the last laugh at us. I heard that you could even send pictures of your piece to Christie and they will look at it for free. I believe Larry would be able to tell you how to do that since he actually has the most experience with jade auctions. If he would give you his opinion on this piece may be you should listen to him. Many members do not even bother to wast their time in commenting on this piece. What did that tell you?

However, I trust Anita and Ernest and even Mr. Zhu even though I didn't know him that well. I also trust myself, not necessarily in the dating part because I am not good enough to do that yet. But just by looking at the picture of your fish, there is simply no way your piece is made of nephrite. The carvings around the sockets of the fish, is simply so poor that this cannot be an "old" piece.

In short, if this piece is not made of quality jade, and its carving is below average. Does it matter if it is unique or one of a kind? If you really want to date it, does it matter if it was made in 1999 or 2005?

I believe you should listen to the advice of Ernest. I did not want to waste my time in responding again to your last message but I understand your frustration and I did read Ernest's advice and I believe is a great advice. You have to make up your mind: should you trust yourself or? You cannot have it both ways.

When you look at a jade piece, forget about the dating or even the authenticating part, because it is simply too hard for us beginners, look at (in that order):

(1) The quality and beauty of the jade stone;

(*any time I see a piece made of high quality nephrite similar to Hetian jade I always pay a lot of attention; the jade should have high hardness (>6), High specific gravity (>3.0), pure color, either white or celadon, no impurities (no inclusions, on cracks), beautiful luster), beautiful sound. Just the stone alone will made the piece worthy.)

(2) The quality of the jade carving.

If both are A+, they buy them if the prices are reasonable. I would not even worry whether they are old or not. You always get what you paid for.

I hope you can make up your mind about your jade fish because you will not hear what you want to hear here.

Bill

Ernest Wilhelm, Did you read my last message? You're so caught up in disproving it your not helping me at all. I am a gemologist and I do know what I am doing. I need to understand the design more, and again I am not selling it... Please read my last message again Thanks.

Steve,

This would be a pretty close match to yours..
http://cgi.ebay.com/CHINESE-ANCIENT-NICE-CARVED-JADE-FISH-PENDANT_W0QQitemZ180201264499

Jim
YES, you found the twin. As a pair, those two would go drastically up in price, perhaps US5.00 each? Plus the value of the frame.

Steve, don't cry, we all fell and fall for things like that.You too will make many mistakes. When you buy "Jade", don't blink your eyes. I blinked my eyes just a few weeks ago (ring stone).
Ernest

I think you all don't understand english at all and I wish I had not asked anything because you have turned my information quest into a insult and that was not my idea at all. I think I will not be back because you know nothing it seems...

WOW...Steve...someone must have really burned you with that fish!
Indeed, if you want everybody to tell you that you made a great purchase, you might try other forums. Many people in this forum are very serious collectors and have a real grasp on Jade carvings.On the other hand, those people who shun the truth, are better off not asking questions in this particular forum.
We wish you luck
Ernest

Hi Steve,
You're right, we all just want to rain on your parade.

Regardless of the fact that you never supplied a clear photo, a general idea of where you bought it, hardness or specific gravity results, provenance, etc.(good thinking, someone may have attempted to copy it, and besides- a man's gotta protect his sources)

Regardless of how much information is stacked up and pointing to your fish being a modern tourist piece including a photo of an almost identical piece being sold on eBay. (Darn, those forgers are quick! Even without clear photos!)

The best recommendation I have for an expert gemologist like yourself who comes to a forum asking for an appraisal of his alleged jade artifact and then ignores the comments he receives, is that you should go with your gut feelings and take advantage of every opportunity you have to purchase pieces like the fish you have asked about in this thread.

With your background as a gemologist, it is almost certain that in a very short time, you will be able to amass a collection of alledged jade artifacts which will rival the finest alledged jade artifact collections in China.

Congratulations!
Gman

To be honest the photo on ebay is a modern copy of my jade fish design and proves to me mine is real so thank you all for the free help in finding the method to see for myself.... go ahead and laugh but you should take a good look at the ebay modern copy and compare mine to see they are not the same. I know you think your good at what you do but so am I. I have read other post on the site here and see through it.

Steve,
Go ahead and believe in impossible beliefs if you want.
If anyone is laughing it is because some people are very funny in their denials, and blindly go where others have gone before thinking they are going to beat the system because they have skills.
They leave with their heads full of rocks, and they all come back with their pockets full of rocks.
None of those other posts about tourist jades applied to you, because you are good at what you do!
Because you're gonna make it!
Your gonna be a contender!
You've got mad skills!
You're a natural!

Dada-dahhhh
dada-dada dahhhhh
Dada-dahhhh
dada-dada dahhhhh
dada-da da-dada
dadadada-dada-dada dah-dahhhhhhhh
(the theme song from Rocky)

Cheers
Gman


URL Title :The Theme from Rocky

You people are not the system, infact most of you don't know what you are talking about. I have 30+ years of experience in my field and most of you are amatures by what is going on here, fact...... I'm smarter than you think.

Steve:
Thirty years experience in the sign-painting, truck-lettering, and jingle writing field in Bakersfield, California, does not make you an expert in jade. Most of the contributors to this forum are very knowledgeable in the field of Asian arts and do not deserve your arrogant denial that your trinket is of very modest worth.

Steve,

If you are as smart as you claim, then you will follow the excellent advice you got here. Take the piece to a qualified appraiser and have it evaluated. Are you near a reputable auction house (Sotheby's or the like)? They can appraise it and give you a value. Most auction houses will give a verbal appraisal for free and charge you for a written one.

Cheers,
Stan

If you believe so strongly... why do you keep coming here hoping for reinforcement. A person that is confident doesn't need the approval of others.

Hi, Sarah:

What you said made the most sense so far.

I actually feel for Steve because when I first posted some of my jade pieces here many of them received brutal treatments worse than those received by him.

Of course I got upset, not just upset at those comments but also upset at myself for not knowing more about jades. That is why I start studying and learning everything about jade.

I do not claim I know everything about jade now but I surely know a lot more than when I first started. Now I began to understand more about unique tool marks found only on Hongshan jades. I understand what modern and old tool marks are and how modern is modern. I train myself to be able to tell the material of a piece of carving with pictures alone with 80 to 90% accuracy.

Therefore, Steve should not get upset and trade snipe remarks with others, but to get even by learning everything he can about jade or do what somebody has suggested - find a professional appraiser or auction house to appraise the fish carving and prove all of us are wrong here. He will have the last laugh.

Another very easy thing for him to do - take off the fish carving from the frame, test for its specific gravity and hardness. If the hardness of the fish is 6.0 and higher and its S.G. is 3.0 and higher. If its color is indeed yellow, then just the value of the nephrite will be worth a fortune. Then he can decide if it is worth for further appraisal.

Other than that, I believe he should get on with life. There are so many other things we can enjoy. Go buy another "great" jade piece and post it here!

Just a suggestion. Cheers, please do not take life too serious. Just believe in yourself especially when you believe you are right.

Bill

Quote Steve:
"Ernest Wilhelm, Did you read my last message? You're so caught up in disproving it your not helping me at all. I am a gemologist and I do know what I am doing. I need to understand the design more, and again I am not selling it... Please read my last message again Thanks."

Steve,
Ernest has given you his expert opinion based on the terrible blurred photos you have supplied.
And sometimes it is not necessary to go further than the blurry photos, what needs to be seen is seen already.
The fact that you are a gemologist, whether by hobby or profession does not mean much here as what you are seeking is more to do with opinions regarding age and artistic merit which more than one contributor has already given you.
It is an unfortunate fact of life in these forums that people purchase objects with a certain assumption, and then ask questions later.

First of all, you stated that the object was an antique. What made you assume that?
The frame does not appear to have any age. And as Ernest indicated, giving you the benefit of his 44 years of experience, he has never seen an antique jade displayed nor sold in this manner.
As a gemologist, would you buy a diamond or a ruby without physically inspecting it in your hand?

Secondly,
the contributors in this forum can only go by the information you supply them with, and nothing you have said is giving them any reason to re-think their opinions. If anything, what you are saying is substantiating their opinions.

Quote:
"I've seen alot of fakes and know the difference. I was looking for a date."

It would have been helpful to mention where you bought this piece, and to state what the seller had labeled it as regarding it's age and origin.
You say you have seen a lot of fakes, but you don't mention that you have a background in collecting jades which gives you an educated eye to differentiate between a fake/forgery or modern tourist piece and an authentic antique/archaic/archaistic or dynastic piece.
As you stated:
"it's like a large Ruby in the hands of a poor man the odds are it's fake because of the value but I could tell with a 10 power loop if it's real or fake"
Actually, this scenario depends a lot on where you meet up with the poor man with the large ruby in his hand. As a gemologist, you must be aware that most large rubies are found by poor men. So if you are in the jungles of Burma, and a poor man approaches you with a large ruby, the odds of it being a real ruby are much better than if you are approached by a poor man in Hong Kong. And what good is your 10 power loop if the alledged ruby is sealed in a plastic case?

Quote:
"I think it's very old and I am trying to find out just how old it is by the design. Please help with what I am trying to find out. How about the hook in the mouth? also the design on the belly?. As far as the eye I am an artist myself and can see where it works. Let's just give the benefit of a closer look and telling me it's fake is not working for me, I know better. I know all of you are offering help and I do respect that and I am doing even more study and they have been making fakes for thousands of years and they have value also."

Several forum members have already said:
They don't see anything stylistically which leads them to believe it is anything archaic; That the carvings display poor craftsmanship; The stone appears to have been dyed to enhance it's appearance;
Member Bill even commented on what the hardness and specific gravity requirements are to determine whether the stone is nephrite jade.
Instead of testing your piece and informing the forum of your findings, you posted what appears to be an article on jade from your gemologists handbook.

Quote:
"One thing I'm not selling this piece I'm keeping it... I like it. ( also I can feel the power it gives off, some may know what I mean by that )."
This is important information.
Not that you are not selling it,
or that you feel it is giving off power,
but that "you like it".
Because you bought it and as long as you like it and you are happy with the price you paid whether it is old or new, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

However, as far as your future purchases go, the forum members are only trying to point out the glaring issues which would have been red flags to them as longtime jade collectors in order to help you make better informed purchases, and to avoid ill advised purchases.
Rather than acting out your denial, you should carefully list the opinions, and the recommended actions which were offered to you by the forum members, in order to determine whether you have been duped.
Depending on how and where you purchased the piece, as Ernest suggested, you might attempt to return it for a refund.
If you take it to a reputable jade expert as was suggested, and you find that it is indeed authentic to whatever it was sold to you as, or whatever you think it should be, it will then be your opportunity to enlighten and educate the forum members as to what you found.
Just keep in mind that the members here can only make comments based on the photos and the solid information you supply regarding where you bought the piece, and the hardness and S.G. results.
So far you have only supplied blurred photos and speculation.
If you approach Christies or any reputable dealer in this manner they will not even respond.
I am not sure why you keep repeating that you are not selling the piece, do you think someone is going to tell you it is fake and then try to buy it from you for nothing?

It does not make sense to come here asking for opinions and then dispute each opinion you are given... they are not getting any satisfaction from telling you what they see appears to be anything but antique.
They are only trying to help you by sharing their opinions based on their experience.
If you prefer to go and pay an appraiser to tell you the same thing, that is your choice.

Just don't kill the messengers.

Cheers
Gman

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