Asian Arts | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries | Message Board

I have a neolithic bi disk from a reputable NYC dealer. It is 4 1/4" diameter, 1/4" thickness.

I have read some ordinary research on the cultural significance of the disk an am interested in learning more. Also, I am interested in the market or rarity of this item if I wished to sell. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Kevin

Why you think 'market price' not what you paid dealer? If you think not genuine, have appraised by experts this field. If genuine, 'market price' not change much in few years, a decade.

Good luck,
Cal

Thank you Cal for your reply.

I am not worried about my dealer at all. I am curious what opinions and advice might be offered by readers of this group. Perhaps someone here is an expert in these items.

I appreciate your suggestion to get an expert appraisal. That is certainly also something I can do.

I note with interest your observation that prices for items like these change slowly over time. Thanks for that information.

Kind regards,
Kevin

Dear Kevin

I think I saw this bi disc from some websites before, said as bi disc from the Qing Dynasty.

If it is authentic as the dealer said, he/she will not sell you cheap.

This piece is too difficult to date, without handeling I can not date this piece.

The best I can quess is a replica of archaic jade bi disc made in the Qing Dynasty, the worst is yesterday made.

I like the material, no need to make it looks that old, I'll buy it anyway.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Kevin
This is a difficult one to judge from the picture alone. I am afraid you have to go to a museum, or find some other expert in your area. Without handling it, experts wont be able to tell you much.
Ernest

With selling objects like these you need to have the original receipt, when you get it valueed by a auction appraiser. Some major auction houses will take in only important piece, while others less reputable auctions will take in anything including fakes, as they do not have enough know how to tell between the real and fake. The color of this bi isn't the best. I suspect your bi is nepherite and of the Han dynasty and probably worth $2000 and $3000 USD, however to prove it's provenance you need the sale receipt other wise not may people will dare to risk bidding due to lots of good quality fakes around. The ultimate price will depend on how many people in the auction interested in the item. As for selling to an antique shop it would be hard to sell for a good price as they will pay you traditionnally 1/3 of the price you originally paid. Regards, Larry

Thank you everyone for your advice. I will be looking at it more tonight, but since several people have mentioned that the dealer's receipt is important, here is a link to the object, which the dealer kept on their website for a year now since I bought the item. Perhaps this is useful information for you?

http://eastcornercompany.com/imgViewer.aspx?f=item2_2&p=j219073.JPG

I take this to be the documentation. I am not expressing doubt in the dealer's assessment, but I do find your thoughts that the disk may possibly being of later origin interesting. What expert would you advise I visit in New York City for an appraisal?

Thanks,
Kevin

The item is wrongly dated as Liangzhu! The work do not look Liangzhu. It looks old, but not that old. The Bi is too thin, and the hole does not look like Liangzhu workmanship. Jade type is also not right for Liangzhu. The items appeared that it had been burnt. It is more likely a Zhou to Han item.

As for rarity, it is only average. So it is overpriced! I don't think auction house would take in items like that because it does not possess enough beauty that the buyers prefer.

Sorry for the harsh words! But if we are looking at the high dollar receipt from a pretigeous seller instead of the item's true beauty and rarity, then we are not true collectors but investors. This is definitely not a good investment after paying a high price tag, because it is hard to resell for the same price that was paid for.

Dear Kevin,

a nice jade.

1. The Bi is almost certainly not liangzhu. I do not think that it is from liangzhu because I have never seen such withish, translucent jade used for an liangzhu bi. To me it looks more similar to the qijia bi artifacts but the weathering, finishing and color is different from known qijia examples.
2. Generally, from such small photographs it is completly impossible to make any appraisal of this artifact.
3. To see if the bi is really old I would take attention to the following: Small cracks, tuft cracks and color diffusion should all be caused naturally and not from acid, alkaline, heating, frozening and sandblasting. You can observe well from where the color diffusion starts and if it is expanding smoothly. The color expansion should be quite equal on both sides. please observe the bi for regions that are petrified or calcified and look if this calcification has a natural connection to the color permeation process of the bi. Look out for tiny, unevenly distributed wholes on the surface and observe if they are covered by natural weathering, loupe 10x.
4. An old bi made of nephrite is almost always covered with a smooth, oily layer (luster), also if you wash it away it will reapear after short time.
5. It is uncommon that the bi is rounded strongly on the outside of the diameter as it appears on the photograph. Observe how the inner whole has been made?
6. Tool marks are actually not a good indicator since they can be faked by producing a bi with traditional carving and poolishing methods.
7. Have you done any hardness test on the parts that are less affected by weathering?
8. Study the ancient jade appraisal tecnique for Hongshan jade from Xu Qiang in his new book. It will be very helpful.

Diasai

There is no previous provenance mention by your dealer. Like where he obtain the piece from. Best to buy pieces with provenance of being collected prior to 1960s in the West like US or UK. However provenance can be made up as well and is a common ploy to trick buyers.Always demand the old receipts or auction cataloque when a dealer says it is from an old collection.Most collectors would have sold the piece with the original receipt or auction cataloque illustrating the piece. Some very paranoid collectors will only buy pieces with a fitted antique wood stand. Most careful collectors are weary of any dealers that get their artifacts esp jade direct from China or HK as there are lots of good quality imitation there. Fortunately most trained jade experts can tell a fake from an authentic piece under close examination. Bring it to Christies or Sothebys in New York for appraisal. They have various experts specialising in various types of chinese art including jade. I am sure they will be happy to help you. Regards, Larry

Dear Kevin

You said Neolithic, I first thought It was from North East China.

Definately not Liangzhu type! It looks like Hetian nephrite, not Liangzhu local material.

It's a replica.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Thank you everyone for your very interesting responses. The art department at Christies is now giving me a preliminary appraisal, and I will probably request a full one as well. I will also do the suggested examinations. Clearly I need to establish the era of the object whether I keep it or sell it.

More information probably will be forthcoming after the holidays and I will attempt to share it with you.

It's been a pleasure to be in contact.

Kevin

Hello Kevin,

I was curious about your bi. Unfortunately the picture was not good enough to see exactly what it is. Reading your post I get to know the origin of your piece and visited this website�
http://eastcornercompany.com

Knowing the origin of a piece is always a very good start to appreciate it.

I would advise you to be careful with this source�
I started by reviewing their ceramic gallery:

The first item (before Song) is real antique, description is correct, but the quality is very low, I doubt famous auction house as Christie�s would accept this piece. What I mean by perfect is that this piece is a ceramic piece (not terracotta); therefore the smallest scratch would ruin its value. From that point of view this item is still correct.

The second must be a repro. The general shape is wrong (especially handles and neck), the light reflect on the oil is wrong too, the bottom also. Thru is there is very few Tang san Cai left on the market and many fakes. Some very well done by this one is very common.

The 3d item should be real antique, but not much value from collector point of view. I would say 100 $ to 300$ (in china) would be a correct price for it.

The 4th item is real but with important defects (oil degradation and broken). This item is interesting because you can compare the bottom with the N�2 (fake one). Considering this, this piece has almost no market value.

The last item of the first page also shows important reparations, therefore lost 80% of his value.

The last item is an obvious fake (light reflect on the handles, shape, and type of ceramic�). If it was real this kind of marble ceramic are very valuable, the price would be much higher than that. (Price problem).

For the Song-Yuan ceramics, many shows important reparations (n� 6-15), or cracks (n�7), some are fakes (new)(items 1-2-3-5-8-9-13)
Item 4 is interesting because it is what we call �hou gong� or �dong shou� the vase is old, real Song dynasty but the carving and black painting inside the carved areas are new, just made to give it more value. This is quite common way to make a fake

Correct ones are n� 11-12
Others: no opinion (miss good pictures or out of my field of expertise)

For the jades:
Most of them are fakes (forgeries) or new, good examples are n� 1-2-3-5-6-8�20 (new)-19 (new)-16�21-22-23�26-27�29�37-38�41(forgery)�

Remark: the 3d one has exactly the same kind of chemical made �baojiang� you can find on jades from chicochai website witch are the worst on the market so far.

As a conclusion I would say (from what I have seen) this is not very serious way to deal antiques...

Regards,

Pipane

Dear Pipiane,

Thank you very much for your advice. I will weigh it along with the comments which Christies is to provide. I felt good about this dealer but I am not an expert (just learning).

Kind regards,
Kevin

You are most welcome, you can also contact Bernard Gomez, Chinese antique expert at Drouot auction house (Paris) with better pictures through his association; www.apace.com, he is a friend and has good knowledge about Chinese antique jades (beeing here often and participating with chinese archeologists to officials excavations).

Regards,

Pipane

Thanks! Christies has advised me they cannot do any sort of appraisal on this sort of item without provenance documentation beyond the dealer's own claims. So I am wondering if there is anyone in New York City who is an independent expert. I will inquire with your reference in Paris.

Best,
Kevin

Hi fyi I do have a look similar to this neolithic jade Bi.I'm not sure whether its authentic or modern fake though I can feel it look old (but how old is the big question)and nephrite.I won it at a very low price in an ebay auction many years ago via a US Jade Collector who is famous for many neolithic jade items.I think most in this forum know who I'm referring to.

Quite same to mine.

Thanks for the picture! It's an interesting thing to research.

Kevin

Asian Arts | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries | Message Board