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http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.php?forum=1&id=11208

These jade discs may be part of the collection or inventory of a jade dealer who has been selling their jades to other forum members.

Some of them praised these discs as fantastic works of arts and authentic jade pieces.

Some called them fakes.

I would like to ask for the expert opinions of jade experts here especially Larry's

Please explain in details why you think they are great pieces or fakes.

Thanks.

Bill

Dear Bill, those are fakes made from acid treated serpentine, these especially appear crystalline and frosted on the surface but is not how old jade are surpose to look like. I hope you have got that book Translucent world. The white inclusion in old jades are subsurface and do not appear like surface crystaline unless it is chicken bone jade which takes a more than a million years to form, but will still not look like etch serpentine or may be nepherite. Regards, Larry

Hi, Larry:

I totally agree with what you said because they simply made a lot of sense. The most interesting part is, if you read that link again, is the owner of these discs actually claimed they were all made of white Hetian (nephrite) jades which were confirmed with laboratory testing. I countered that I have never heard of any testing that could confirm Hetian jades. Now, if these are indeed serpentine jades, that would make a lot more sense, because most of them did look yellow on the surface and some had these greenish tint below the yellow surfaces. Yes, I strongly agree that such crystals look highly suspicious. I just want a jade expert like you who have been participating in many jade auctions to provide me with some confirmations to my suspicion.

I truly appreciate your invaluable opinions.

Bill

I think that these are two totally different songs. You probably have no idea of what raised crystals are. Naturally raised crystals are caused by hydration that the water sipped through micro-fissures of the jade's surface and altered the minerals around and underneath the tremolite crystals into a clay-like sustance that expanded and pushed the crystals out of the jade surface. Raised crystals induced by acid is a totally different ball game. It can easily be identifed because all of the raised crystals of the large jade surface area would protrude out of the jade surface in a different way. While naturally hydrated raised crystals are resulted from the water sipping in through the micro-fissures, only the jade surface around the micro-fissures would have raised crystals. Therefore the naturally raised crystals are scattered sporadically. Yang Boda had talked about that the fakers would attempt to put rubber sealants to certain areas of the jade surface before acid treatment to mimmick naturally sporadic hydratic raised crystsals. But it is easily identifiable with experience.

I have read that serpentine resist acid more than nephrite. Serpentine would not have been strong enough to hold so many swivel parts on a thin body. It is difinitely not bowenite that is a harder variety of serpentine. It does not appear to be bowenite.

The jade of certain localities can be identified through comparisons to their X-Ray Spectroscopies to the established database of jades from different localities. It is not that much of a deal.

Hetian jade has a wide range of colors. I did not see anyone had mentioned in the Chicochai jade forum that these bis were originally white Hetian jade.

I am a traditional collector of dynastic jades, and I go for the beauty of the jades. I, like most of you, try to avoid jades that are heavily weathered. It started only not too long ago that the Western market demanded weathered jades. I am not a business associate of any seller in the Chicochai jade forum, and I have no conflict of interest. I just want to say what I think is correct with my 40 years experience as a treasure hunter, gemologist, and jade collector. I only go for truth-finding!

Happy New Year!

Randy:

Do you truly and honestly believe these jade discs are authentic and archiac?

What dynasty?

B

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp61-c4.pdf

�Amphibole fibers are more resistant to acid attack.�

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/environmental/asbestosproperties2004.html

�While the serpentine chrysotile is soluble in acid, the amphiboles amosite, crocidolite and anthophyllite are resistant to acids.�

Below is an excerpt from "A Field Guide To Rocks And Minerals" by Frederick H. Pough. Page 252.

"Interesting Facts: There are many related amphibole species. Nephrite jade is close to actinolite, but is more compact and massive. It is one of the two jades minerals. Amianthus is the ancient name for an amphibole asbestos. It melts(in acid*)more easily than serpentine asbestos. Mountain leather is a natural mat of light-colored interlocking amphibole asbestos fibers."

* I added the word acid because the page was describing about using acid.

Note: I found the above quote in just a few minutes in one of the books that I read during my gemological research many years back. I can find many more quotes similar to that!

Hi, Randy:

It seems the Amianthus is a Greek word used for �a soft variety of asbestos� or �a type of asbestos with thin silky fibers.�

While it is true that in some literature they state that Aminanthus were from Tremolite, a type of amphibole but in other literature they clearly state that aminanthus originates from serpentine.

Therefore it seems this word is basically a generic word and not a specific term used for the classification of asbestos. It is also possible that such term can be used for either Tremolite or serpentine depending on the types of fibers found on such rocks. Many literature describe tremolite asbestos as �sharp, needle-like�.

According to

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/Asbestos/more_about_asbestos/what_is_asbestos/
�Regulatory agencies such as the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) recognize six asbestos minerals: chrysotile, a serpentine mineral with long and flexible fibers; and five amphibole (with relatively brittle crystalline fibers) minerals, actinolite asbestos, tremolite asbestos, anthophyllite asbestos, crocidolite asbestos, and amosite asbestos. �

You have also to be careful that many jade carvings, whether they were made with nephrite (amphibole) or serpentine, their materials are not in the natural forms of asbestos and therefore their physical properties may be different than that of their asbestos forms. If such jade carvings were indeed in the form of asbestos, that many jade collectors would have already contracted lung diseases.

From some of the more scientific studies I have read so far, there is a clear indication that chrysotile (serpentine) asbestos is clearly more acid soluble than any of the five amphibole asbestos. Therefore that is why serpentine asbestos had been chosen for industrial uses. It is also true that serpentine asbestos is harder to be inhaled by the human (see reference below) and once inhaled into the body its duration of stay may be shorter than that of amphibole asbestos due to the fact that the time takes it to be dissolved in body acid is shorter than that of amphibole asbestos.

Since I am no expert in asbestos, my findings may not be correct.

There is indeed an article in which both nephrite and serpentine were treated with sulfuric acid under different temperatures. However, I need to read it again before I can make any concrete conclusions because basically it only talks about the �whitening effect� or not their solubility in acid.

Bill
For more references:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O13-asbestos.html?Q=Amianthus

�Ancient civilizations referred to asbestos cloth as amianthus (from the Greek word meaning � undefiled �), because it could be cleaned by throwing it into a fire and all varieties of asbestos have great heat-resistant properties; varieties with fibres.�

http://www.medicineword.com/Amianthus.shtml

Amianthus \Am`i*an"thus\, n. [L. amiantus, Gr. ? ? (lit.,
unsoiled stone) a greenish stone, like asbestus; 'a priv. + ?
to stain, to defile; so called from its incombustibility.]
(Min.)
Earth flax, or mountain flax; a soft silky variety of
asbestus.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/amianthus
am�i�an�thus

An asbestos with fine, silky fibers.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861585155/amianthus.html


am�i�an�thus [ �mmee �nthəss ]



noun

Definition:

type of asbestos: a type of asbestos with thin silky fibers
[Early 17th century. Via Latin< Greek amiantos "undefiled" < miainein "defile"]




http://www.mesorfa.org/exposure/asbestos-types.php
�Chrysotile Asbestos
Also called white asbestos, chrysotile asbestos is unique in that it has a serpentine fiber-formation (curled fibers) compared to the amphibole fiber-formation (straight, needle-like fibers) of the other five asbestos types. Chrysotile asbestos is less friable (less-likely to be inhaled) than other types of asbestos. Chrysotile asbestos is less likely to be inhaled and therefore viewed by many to be the safest of the asbestos types.�
http://www.farlang.com/gemstones/gratacap-geology-new-york/page_157
AMIANTHUS, in serpentine boulders Amity Street, and in West 58th Street; confounded probably with chrysotile, which is a fibrous serpentine.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0344563A.html
�A process for inactivating industrial wastes of chrysotile asbestos which has the peculiarity of consisting in subjecting the industrial wastes of amianthus or fibrous chrysotile asbestos to heating at a temperature no lower than 580C to eliminate the water present in the molecule and convert the fibrous chrysotile asbestos into forsterite.�
http://books.google.com/books?id=WA0RAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=serpentine+amianthus&source=web&ots=IgHV36M4RJ&sig=uubFobUOnYeNyzbOBhIT0b6Lsfg

�AMIANTHUS USUALLY OCCURS IN SERPENTINE.�

"Nephrite is NOT asbestos. The confusion arises from the fact that nephrite has the same chemical composition as one of the forms of asbestos (Actinolite). "

http://users.lmi.net/drewid/DFNephrite_asbestos.html

Bill,
Thank you for the posting of the link. These are by far the most interesting and exquisite examples of jade craftsmanship that I've seen.

I also noted the comments made and would have to agree that while modern tooling "might" be able to achieve the complexity of these items. They would still have had to have been done by a master craftsman and not cheap labor like what was suggested. Unfortunately I don't believe there exists such a person in today's reproduction industry. Since cheap labor produces cheap inferior products, as we all see today.

While Trish provided close ups of only portions of the pieces, for me the obvious care that was taken to lay out the motifs by the carver far exceeds those of today or the past 200 years or more. Though there are a couple small misalignments which human hands may make, a computer enhanced machine would not. Even though the location of where these where found has been stated, pictured documentation would enhance there validity. Since it's been obvious for years that the Chinese government has been unable to fund or validate many of these sites or expand their research into the tooling methods that may have been used in the past. I think this is where doubt of authenticity also occurs, since tooling is thought to have been very rudimentary using bamboo, corundum and other basic methods to carve and polish jade, which has been documented.
However this is where I know I'll get slammed, since some of the small intricate jade carvings would have been difficult to impossible to achieve starting around the Eastern Zhou Period, using just corundum and the element of time. I personally feel that pieces like these of Trish's and some others that I've seen may have been aided in carving by the use of diamond tooling, since diamonds have been around for over 3,000 years, http://www.belgianexperts.com/diamonds.php, and the Chinese traders traveled beyond their borders. Well anyway these are just my opinions, since I have no valid or documented proof.

Hi, Jim:

You bought up a very valid point that I have surely missed - the carvings of these carvings are simply very delicate and detailed and were possibly carved with diamond tools.

The interesting thing is the owner of these discs had never dated them or declared them as authentic (and authentic to what dynasty). When I questioned their styles (with both Zhou marks and Han dragons) and the fact that sundials were not invented till Western Han, her side kick, Joey, started claiming they were WS to W Han pieces.

Thanks for your comments.

Bill

Bill,

I can't say much about the jade but I'll throw in a comment about manufacturing. Below you'll see a picture of a pocket watch from my collection. The pattern on the back is called damascening. It is produced by a machine. There is a remarkable resemblance between the jade and watch patterns.

Admittedly, this pattern is 2D. This watch was made in 1893. That gives the designers 100+ years to be able to create patterns in 3D.

Cheers,
Stan

Stan:

Very astute observation. Thanks.

Bill

Bill,
Sorry, I know you asked for comments by forum jade experts.

However, do you think anything anyone in this forum says will make any difference to any of the raised crystal disciples over there?

You know they would just cry that it is more conservative rhetoric.

I think we all understand very well that their whole world rests on their perceived importance of raised crystals, and the impossibility of them being faked.

I am quite impressed with the findings of Dr. Cook as regards the manner in which raised crystals form from impurities within the stone.

While at the same time, if an enterprising jade forgery entrepreneur has found an effective and cost efficient way to simulate/stimulate the growth of those crystals....where there is a will and a profit to be made, there is a way.

If someone can fake those crystals and they are convincing, those forum member's belief system will only allow them to believe, and like lemmings they will follow each other off of the cliff to be dashed on the rocks below.

And of course they will be arguing, disagreeing, calling each other idiots, and at the same time all the way down they will try to convince each other that they are scholars, and that they are doing the World a great favor with their "discussions" right up to the moment when they impact the ground.

I had been keeping up with that thread prior to you posting this thread, and I think you made some very good points in your argument, and that there needs to be some further information given about the origin and anthropology of these disks.

Especially if there are no other specimens of this type of artifact known to acheologists.

The photos posted are in a public forum, perhaps you could forward them to the Chinese authorities to see what their opinion is as to the possible dynasty, excavation site, artistic form, and possible use.

I of course am no expert, and cannot say whether they are authentic or not, only that I don't believe they should be rubber stamped as authentic based strictly on the raised crystals by a bunch of self-authenticating collectors who seldom agree with each other, led by a dealer who has the Worlds largest self-authenticated collection of un-documented and un-researched jade and jade-like stones which are in many cases such as the multi-ringed disks in that thread "too good to be true", and pretty much all very similar in "surface weathering".

I agree that they should be studied by the proper authorities to determine who made them, what they are, where they came from, and what they were used for.

As it stands, if it is true that there are no other known artifacts to compare them with, the owners are doing the the World of archeology a dis-service by simply hoarding them, and presumably financing a ring of tomb-robbers who are defacing an important excavation site, and denying the World of an important discovery.

But that is the way liberals think.... do as they say, not as they do.

Just my conservative $00.02 worth.
Cheers
Gman

Hi, Gman:

You raised some good points regarding "crystals".

I no longer really understand what types of criteria those "T & J jade School" in the other forum used in authenticating and dating their jade carvings anymore.

I argued with them that even I agreed with them on the "crystallization" (or weathering) part, so if the crystals are genuine? What will they prove? It proves the jade carvings can be old? How old? Nobody can tell by the degree of crystallization. Many scientists and jade experts had tried to use weathering to date a jade object without any success. Many archaic jade carvings do not have any weathering.
Old weathered jades can be used to made new jade fakes. Therefore, crystallization simply cannot be used to authenticate a jade carving.

Then they tried to say because the quality of carving is great and the jade material used is Hetian jades, therefore these discs must be archaic. These simply do not make any senses, even to a jade novice like me. They cannot even date those discs or explain what their purposes are.

The most funny thing is the owner wanted to convince everybody these discs were excavated from a vault and exported out of China. She couldn't give any details about such excavation with such BIG discoveries (jade discs that were never seen before). What fairy tales.

Thanks for your inputs. I wish Anita sees this and say something.

Bill

Happy New Year everyone! I just came back from Zhuhai, and I found basket full of Hongshan jades, will be posted later.

--------------------------------------

Dear Bill

I'm sick of this fraud and forgery junks.

They are treated serpentine, no need to use diamond tip tools to carve that kind of warring states plus Qing Dynasty prayer wheel to be fantasy Japanese cartoon Dragon balls totem.
-----------------------------------------
Here is the story, last year, jade seal of Qianlong stolen from The Old Summer Palace (Yuan Ming Yuan - Garden of Perfect Splendor ) by British and French expeditionary forces in 1860 was on auction at the Soltheby�s HK at HK$ 46.20 millions(US$ 5.92 millions), won by anonymous mainland Chinese collector.(see link)

Antique jades will never come out of China at these few years, since the Chinese Collectors are very serious to collect them secretly in their warehouse. And they pay better price than overseas market. Authentic jades in HK are very much more expensive since HK$ 100 is equal to RMB 92.00 and RMB will be stronger. China has changed a lot; the cost of living in major city is somehow close to Hong Kong. You think that the thieves will risk their heads, and sell the Wilsons for hundreds of US$ and let them sell for thousands? Those junks if they are authentic, they can be sold at 0.5 to 1 million of RMB in the black market.
--------------------------------------
Many new found are new fakes from the Wilsons'
Always undocumented, same patina, and from the same block of stone. Why Chinese authority in Australia could capture people who smuggling dinosaur eggs at Australian ports, but turn the blind eyes to the Wilsons' warehouse stuffed with Cultural relics, especially many Lianzhu t'sung as big as electric poles, why they can not be detected by the x-ray at Chinese ports and Australian ports. Because they are fakes! You think Chinese port authorities are dumb?
---------------------------------------------

What is the true function of bi disc? It represents the heaven, the mandate of heaven would have right to speak through it, and bi disc will be put on altar at the heavenly ceremony. Some said that bi discs were hung above the throne hall to pass the message from the king to heaven. Why made them inter-locked spinning?...fun?...mad? or for flipping the tongues of emperors? The emperors would never flip their tongues! (Confucius)

I can assure you that inter-locked spinning wheel have never been found in archaic period, those junks are fantasy pieces mixed up with Qing Dynasty prayer wheel and warring states style dragons.

That fake Trish copied style from the books and send to Skylink factory to make them fantastically uniquely fakes, without knowing the true function of bi disc. Pls notice that she will never have expensive kohtan white nephrite to fool around.

Have fun
Anita Mui




URL Title :Soltheby\'s Auction - Qianlong jade seal

A Happy New Year To All!

Dear Bill, I certainly agree to Larry, Gman, Anita, Tony Allen and to everybody with a sane mind, not already infiltrated by the jade fakers promotion board. It is time that they get unmasked. If somebody want's to purchase chinese historical souvenir, ok! But do not believe these items are authentic/true/art etc.

Sorry for beeing so monosyllabic recently. I do not have the time to occupy myself with such kind of junk anymore. Only the most unconcerned believe these "jades?" posted by the W... to be ancient, and only the most unconcerned believe these "jades" to be of quality craftmanship. The "jades?" are coming straight away from the Xi'an market tourist souvenir stands. The W... bronze junk is even worse.

Wake up, wake up please!

Diasai

Hi, Anita:

Welcome back. Your concerns regarding these fanatasy pieces matching what I said in the link:

(1) They do not look like they were made of white Hetian jades. The owners of these discs never declare them as authentic or what dynasty they are. If they were indeed made of cheap serpentine jades or low qaulity green nephrite jades, they most likely could not be archaic jades. There is no such test which can confirm Hetian jade by physical properties alone. Reject, yes; but not in confirming as claimed by the owner.

(2) If such pieces are indeed archaic or authentic, how in the world would they be allowed to be exported out of China since they are more than 125 years old. They will be worth a lot more in China.

(3) There are always special functions and purposes for all Chinese jade carvings, mostly for religious purposes. What are these discs and what are their purposes or functions? Nobody including the owner can tell. Why there are no similar pieces anywhere?

The "T & J Jade School" also said those jade experts in BIG auctions houses cannot be trusted in authenticating and dating these fantasy pieces. So who can they trust.

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

Bill

If you want to buy a handful of jade pi, see lot 129 in the auction (01/06/08) below. There are also other Asian objects for sale.

Have fun,
Stan

URL Title :Jenack Auction

The only item that appears authentic and worth buying in that auction is that export 19th century hongmu arm chair. Regards, Larry

The tiny bis in the auction were made from Burmese jadeite. They had been buried. The best two are the ones at the bottom on the right side.

This auction house is a "favorite" of mine. From it, I learned two great life lessons when I started collecting.

They were auctioning a Japanese woodblock print they identified as a Hiroshige. I identified it as a Hokusai. I asked for better pictures and what I got were blurry and not helpful. I bid and won it with an absentee bid. It turned out to be a Hokusai from recarved blocks. I wasted $568 on a $75 print.

My lessons learned:

1) I never buy an item unless I can hold it in my hands and inspect it carefully.

2) I must be 100% correct. To this day, my wife reminds of this mistake. Funny, she never reminds me of the time I paid $543 for about $3000 worth of Hiroshige I and Hiroshige II prints.

Cheers,
Stan

Dear Bill, You should look in local auctions like Stan. At least there is a chance you may find a real piece of antique jade. However becareful of some auction houses that import fake chinese antiques from China to auction. I know one auction house that sells lots of fake serpentine carvings and tomb pottery like that disc as ancient jade for thousands and they keep telling their customers that they were from old collection or from tomb robbers, but actually they bought them from places like Hong Kong and China. It is good to learn from Anita how they actually produce such fakes. The other way is to watch cctv on satellite tv and watch how the chinese experts tell the real from the fake. So make sure you find a reliable antique auctioneer and equipt your self with lots of know how.

What know how? It is too bad that many of the so-called reliable antique auctioneers can't identify the material correctly without a lab test. Too many people don't know how to identify what are natural and what are not in sound-harn archaic jades such as naturally raised crystals by hydration, and artificially raised crystals by acid.

The social setting made most people only look up to the people who they believe, and not the fact of what the item truly is!

Dear Bill

About the surface alterations of the archaic jade artefacts. Re-crystalization, growth of crystal..whatever...

I do not like to collect jades that altered, eventhough they are proved to be authentic but buying other jades with better conditions is very much valuable.

Pls see comparison, and feel free to cast your opinion.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Bill

The below picturs are from those group of people's valuable junks.

See the difference, whitening are dull. Those lumps are obvious, uncontrollable..jades exposed to what? what kind of burial environment would create that kind of looks?

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. Museum jades have never been cleaned, re-polished, re-carved..etc

Obvious fake, needless to say...

Regards

Pipane

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