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Recently, the most outspoken member at the other forum posted a jade ax with two interesting pig dragon motifs and some modern looking small seal scripts going in funny directions on both right and left sides of the ax. Those small seal scripts do not make any sense when they are placing together. However, the nephrite is dark green and quite nice and the small seal scripts are actually executed quite nicely.

This member previously said in that forum that he did not own any jade pieces and he admitted he did not own this jade ax when another member asked him. He said he simply saw it for sales.

However he proclaimed this jade ax to be either a Tang or even a Shang ax based on the following:

�Here is an extremely interseting ax: it could be as late as Tang I think. Proof that the ancients found neolithic tombs. It is the first such piece I have ever seen with actual neolithic imagery; note how different the zhulong looks, a real interpretation. Perhaps this artist was working from oral description? Seems unlikely, perhaps they just wanted to give it another aspect? This could also be a Shang ax, the charecters are from the period I think. Tang made many pieces with lots of charecters, the older charecters could fit in with the neolithic imagery.�

When another member questioned about his dating of this ax by saying that
this ax seemed to have similarities to the archaistic Qing pieces posted by his mentor at

http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.php?forum=1&id=27894 and it has

similar looking jade color, weathering, decorative script (though yours is not bird script). like his ax posted here.

He responded, �That would really be mindblowing: a Ching ax with a zhulong motif! I don't know where this piece belongs xxxx; I am convinced it is not neolithic, that's what makes it so interesting. If it's early Shang then it is still very unique but more easy to understand, since xxxxx has posted early Shang pieces with Hongshan motifs. The charecters along the sides are what make me feel it is a later piece, and I focused on Tang because they often used a profusion of charecters in their work.�

(Note that he other member did not really call it a Qing ax but simply an archaistic Qing piece. According to the article Old Chinese Jades: Real or Fake?
by Eric J. Hoffman at
http://asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html
� Archaistic Jade�Carved in a vaguely archaic style, or more often a mixture of styles and periods. Often done to �honor the ancient� with no intent to deceive.

Fortunately his mentor came to his rescue and said,

"The likelyhood that the axe is Zhou is more than probable. Although we have seen Liangzhu iconography used on Tang jades we have never seen anything resembling Hongshan art in that period. Certainly nothing Hongshan during the Qing period. "

This member was so happy he immediately concurred by responding,

"A Zhou dating would make the piece very important, a sort of missing link. It is a piece that testifies to later dynasties' awareness of neolithic imagery, either through their own tomb discoveries or else some sort of oral or written tradition."

That was when I couldn't hold my cool any longer and decided to jump in to say my two cents worth.

Of course I can be wrong but this is simply too funny. An authentic Shang Hongshan jade ax? An authentic Zhou dynasty Hongshan jade ax or an authentic Tang dynasty Hongshan jade axe? With small seal scripts that were not invented until the Qin dynasty and were executed in such modern style, placing together in the funniest directions without any meanings?

Now, of course I could be wrong and these other jade experts including this member could be right.

The funny thing is if a person decides to really dedicate himself/herself to jade collecting it will be a life time dedication and addiction because it will take a person's life time to learn everything (his or her lifetime allows) about jade. You must not learn just about jade but must also study Chinese history, Chinese religions, Chinese languages and everything Chinese because everything is pertaining to jade. This will take more than a person�s lifetime to accomplish this and you have to study day and night. Many times, modern forgers will make up some fantasy pieces without thoroughly understanding anything about Chinese cultures and as a result some very interesting and comical "fantasy" jade pieces were being created. Many jade carvings were often made for religious, ornamental or practical purposes and the words carved on them always had important meanings. Therefore they must be made for certain purposes or certain functions. A fantasy jade piece simply lacks any of the above. The more I try to learn about jade the more I find how difficult it is because although I know Chinese and have learned Chinese histories and cultures all my life, there is still so much I do not know.

That is why I believe it is very important for all the jade collectors to discuss jades intelligently, using facts and not misinformation or personal opinions or feelings. Only with such unified effort we can truly learn and progress together. We must be willing to share with and to learn from each other.

I hope you will find this link interesting:

http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.php?forum=1&id=28178

I find it extremely entertaining and at the same time educational. It shows that how easy a forger can make fantasy jade pieces that will fool many jade collectors. Your opinions and comments will be more than welcome. If you find similar pieces on eBay or wherever, please post their links or pictures here for comparisons.

The person who posted this jade ax responded to my comments,

"Since this magnificent axe is undoubtably authentic and probably from an early dynasty the only charecter that doesn't make any sense is you���.�(the rest were just personal attacks.�

Thank you.

Bill

I found it humorous when one of the members began asking him why he was so taken by this piece, when his number one critiria which he always judges other pieces from, clear close up photos, were not included in his post.
And I was not surprized that he had a "do as I say, not as I do attitude".
I have a feeling that if you had posted the same photos without saying where they were from, he would have given you a hard time about it, but of course it was not necessary for him to identify the source as he was asked to do.

I think though that he may be correct that this axe is a missing link.
It may be the key to how many modern forgeries are made.

While the lemmings are oooooing and aahhhhing it as a masterpiece, I see many aspects that just look "off".

The zhulongs don't seem archaic or archaistic in style and are quite ugly.
The horizontal field with the script appears to be poorly laid out on one side, lopsided where the right side is lower than the left.
Also note that the V shaped point where the two horizontal fields meet is more or less centered on the hole. (see top photos)
The same V shaped point between the horizontal fields on the reverse side are well to the right of the center hole. (see bottom 2 photos)

I also find it odd that the script characters within the horizontal fields have well spaced margins at the top and bottom of the field, while the script characters within the vertical field have the correct margin spacing only on the inside, and the outside looks as though the margin was ground down all the way to the edge of the script.
This all seems out of place for the normally symetry conscious Chinese jade carvers.

I am also quite leery of the strong chemical looking discoloration around the script characters which appears to be inconsistant with the fields of the zhulongs.
Finally, look at the bottom photo showing the top edge of the axe, and compare that surface to the surfaces of the top edges above the horizontal fields on both sides, did they forget to add the weathering treatment to the top edge?

Why would someone would go to all of the trouble of forging something like this, and is it possible or practical to do so?
The answers are MONEY, MODERN TECHNOLOGY, and A MARKET OF WANNABE COLLECTORS WHO BUY ALLEDGED ARTIFACTS ONLINE AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER.
Just my uneducated $00.02 worth.

By the way, those videos were interesting, even if they were all in Chinese.

Cheers
Gmanm

PS, I am looking forward to seeing what Randy will say about this piece over in lemming-land.

Now before another Chinese ancient script expert jumps all over me, let me make a correction:

I should not have said the small seal scripts were invented in Qin dynasty but rather they were evoloved, or modified or standardized from the large seal scripts during Qin dynasty after Qin Shi Huang (First Emperor of the Qin dynasty) had united China.

I apoligize for any misunderstanding. After all, I am not an expert in ancient Chinese scripts.

Bill

Hello Bill,

Again I must warn you.

All these are horrible fakes, size, carving, withering from chemicals...phony characters...type of jade...

Go on Shanghai museum website look at their jades: high quality jades, notice the carving the size and general shape....

Remember Chicochai is the place to learn about that type of fake (remark they all have the same withering, phony characters and shape that correspond to none of Chinese historical period carving style, all of these are machine made).

They are too large to be real, jade vessels where made for princes and high rank family, you don't find them on the market, only in museums.


Regards,

Pipane

Dear Bill, those things on the website are all cheap tourist serpentine fakes. I wouldn't even dare to put them in the house as serpentine are asbestos type material with fairly sharp crystals. The factory that produce these fakes I suspect is in Guandong, may be Canton, as I see alot of these acid etched frosted fakes in Southern China, mainly Hong Kong. I hope those workers carving out these things use adequate breathing apparatus as it can cause lung cancer.

Dear Bill

*Jade of pre-Han and Han period is hardly ever decorated with Chinese characters in the form of the archaic seal script.*

I think I have quoted this sentence from Jessica Rawson�s book.
------------------------------------
Chico is a commercial forum, full of counterfeit products. They have to make sell to earn a living.

Selling 1 piece per month will break even. Buying from Skylink�s factory at USD 10.- but selling to the dumb collectors with making up theories of fakes, supported by the members of the "gang" soon after the piece was posted in the forum, then sell it for few hundred to thousand of US dollars to the dumb amateur jade collectors who were tempted to read that forum, the profits will be shared to those who join the con.

Those dumb collectors once realized that they have bought junk, they won't come back, and they won't tell anyone for what they were tricked. They will re-sell it to other dumb. Those who happened to read that fraud and forgery forum, they have learned next to nothing!

That axe is not a nephrite, it is a cheap hard material for making a tomb stone, a blasted black granite, some granite are hard, depending on the feldspars and quartz portions, the total Mohs Hardness of granite is from 5.5 to 7, and the color is even with less of feldspars and quartz glitters.

Pls notice that the factory could not create whitening and lumps of crystals out of granite. The whithening in the block of archaic characters is from sand blasting.

Sad but true.

Anita Mui

See the similarity!

Thanks to everybody's input. Now one thing is very interesting after I have read everybody's comments.

I thought this ax was made of some dark green nephrite. Larry seems to think it was made of serpentine. Anita seems to believe it was made of black granite.

I wonder if Pipan or Mr. Zhu has any thoughts about this. It would be great if Randy would render his opinions too.

Another interesting thing mentioned by Larry about abestos material from carving serpentine.

I agree that when serpentine stones were being carved, its dust if breathed into human lungs can be very dangerous. But it seems it would apply to the carving of nephrite too because there are abestos from both actionolite and tremolite.

I thought abestos are different forms of materials than nephrite or serpentine rocks or carvings.

Therefore, I wonder if it would be safe to keep any nephrite or serpentine rocks and jade carvings displayed at home.

Any scientists, geologists or safety officers out there would be welcome to make a comment.

Thanks.

W

P.S. There seem to be two schools of thoughts concerning the weathering: acid etched or sand blasting. It would be interesting if some examples showing both types can be shown here.

>>Therefore, I wonder if it would be safe to keep any nephrite or serpentine rocks and jade carvings displayed at home. <<

Absolutely, because the danger is not in the ordinary dust, but in the Jade/Serpentine dust which is in the air while it is being worked.
= Silicosis=.
Ernest

Hi, Ernest:

Thank you. One of my jade friend who is a geologist who has been working with all kind of rocks told me the same thing.

What do you think this jade ax was made of?

Bill

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