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I am posting images of a nephrite jade carving originating from the collection of Marvin George, envoy of USA in China between 1907-1909. It is made of translucent jade measuring 2.8" X 2.4" (7 X 6 cm.) I am genuinely interested to know how many of the Forum viewers, including the expert visitors, moderator(s), know the significance of this carving and I will reveal the utilitarian purpose of this carving in one week. This quiz is intended for learning process of the viewers and promotion of the Chinese arts.
Greetings to all!

It is part of a "musical instrument", representing one sound, like a key on a piano.
Played almost like a gamelan.
Ernest

Dear Dr.Mircea Veleanu

Xin Nian Kaui Le!!!!

It's a jade chime.

"A chime of bells and a set of musical stones (chime) were unearthed from the tomb of the Marquis of Zeng at Leigudun, Suizhou, Hubei Province in 1978." Dated as warring states/Eastern Zhou period.

If this piece is authentic, looking at the craftsmanship which is not flat cut with sharp angles, it would be of the later period, possibly of the Tang to the Ming Dynasty.

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Ple visit the link and pls join my jadetalk forum, I would be so honored.
http://www.translucentworld.com



URL Title :Stone Chime

Enclosed are close-up photos of the nephrite carving.

More photos of the nephrite jade carving.

This is 1 segment of a musical instrument composed of dozens of those, each one of a different size for musical effect.Used mainly durind the Shang to Han period.

It is a replica of a 磬qing-an ancient percussion musical instrument made of stone or jade. This piece has no practical use because it is too thick and too small to make a sound. Real archaic jade Qings are large and thin.

This item appears that it had been color-enhanced, but it has some age. There is no close-up on the surface for us to evaluate and estimate its date. It may be a Qing to early Republic item.

It might have been used for Fengshui because the item symbolizes a chime.

Wingchuntaiji or Randy (as you are known in your inner circle),
I appreciate your input in the quiz and of course thanks for taking your precious time to contribute with your knowledge.
Nevertheless, we are not agreeing to several issues. I believe you are influenced by posting of many low end items that appear on the Forum. This jade carving has an illustrious provenance and was purchased in Beijing between 1907 to 1909. With certitude, it was not color enhanced, as you stated. The nice patina is natural and the permeation of a brownish-yellowish discoloration (in Chinese TuSha) appeared on several layers of plastic and paper, this carving was packed in my storage for the past 15 years, or so. In the past, I was puzzled about this permeation of color to materials that usually don't get stains, like plastic bubble, for example. My research on this issue did not bring any results as to my best knowledge, no phenomenon as such was ever described in the literature. One of my best friends, a Chinese scholar in jade, brought my attention to TuSha, the scholar could not translate and by the way, this is a word of mouth and not a scientific publication. In the archaic and ancient time, mercury was used for coating burial items, including jade. Cinnabar and red vermillion (mercury sulfide) color, were used intensively. When combined with a tree sap (cinnabar), mercury became less toxic, as the mercury would not be released on contact, rather, by prolonged resting on the surface. Another possibility, is the release of some fumes, or gases, radiating through many materials covering the treated jade. If the soil of burial place contained some chemicals that penetrated the jade surface, this could be another plausible theory. This sonorous jade most likely, dates to Shang period and in no way is a modern age replica, as you stated. In regard to your statement that "it is too thick and too small to make a sound. Real archaic jade Qings are large and thin." I am really curious where did you acquire the knowledge of this statement?
Without any prejudice, please cite me a reference where a sonorous jade of V-shape is listed. To my best knowledge, the only reference book where there is a mention of sonorous jade, is Berthold Laufer book written more than a century ago. Secondly, where did you see V-shape sonorous jade bigger and thicker than the jade carving I posted?. I cite the following paragraph from the book: Jade, 5000 BC to 1912 AD, Guide to collectors" by Mircea Veleanu: "sound emitted by these jade instruments was regulated by the thickness of the jade slab. The thicker the stone, the deeper and lower scaled the sound. Examples of sonorous jade in my collection (originating from George Marvin's collection) have different sizes, but the same thickness. This makes me believe that different sounds from these instruments depend either on the thickness of the jade slab or their size."
The V-shaped sonorous jade has 2 unequal arms and a central perforation. This instrument was rather used as a single instrument and not in a set. In my experience, V-shape sonorous jade carvings are much rarer than the regular sonorous jade used in sets containing up to 8 pieces. These sets of sonorous jade are composed of trapezoidal shape jade of equal size with 2 perforation on the apical part, suspended from a bamboo frame in 2 equal rows of 8 stones each. The scale was accomplished in this sonorous jade set, not by the size, but by the variation of thickness of the jade slab. You can see several photos of the sonorous jade sets on page 274, chapter 22, Jade musical Instruments, in the book "Jade, 5000 BC to 1912 AD, Guide to collectors". Further on, you state that the "real archaic jade Qings are large and thin". As indirectly or directly, you are claiming that the jade I exhibited is not genuine as presented, I challenge you to support your belief. For the benefit of the learning process, please present in an academic fashion, were you derived your knowledge, with citation of books, publications (with chapter, page number) etc. The major reference book on jade "Chinese jade from the neolithic to the Qing" by Jessica Rawson, did not exhibit or mention any sonorous jade. If you claim that your grandfather, or your Chinese jade dealer told you so, then you should know that this is not acceptable in a learning Forum. Further on, you state that "It might have been used for Fengshui because the item symbolizes a chime."
My response to your above statement is that the item is a chime and does not need to symbolize a chime. I am curious how you associated FengShui with the chime. The dynastic imperial jade used in many dynasties from Shang to Han were of different kinds used by the emperor in his girdle ornaments as a chime.
Awaiting you reply!
Mircea Veleanu

Dear Mircea,

You may need to post a better picture showing the surface, and another picture showing the other side. It will help if you can give us the dimensions especially on the thickness.

Have you done a sound test? If the item is too small and too thick, it may not have a clear key. If it does make a good sound, then it may be part of a set. My perception basing on viewing the jpg and the thickness that the item was made more for symbolizing a jade Qing, and that it was not used as a real Qing. I did not say that the item was not genuine. I only said that it might have been made as an abstract form of a Qing.

I actually see some mild alterations on the surface that could be tiny raised crystals in the picture.

Just because the item has a provenance that it was purchased in Beijing between 1907 to 1909 may not be enough to qualify it as archaic. That was in fact in the period that had a large numbers of replica. More evaluation are needed to correctly date this item!

I have not been reading jade books for quite a while, but I did see sketches of jade Qings of this shape from old scripts, and I had seen some v-shape qings. I can't recall where did I see them. I have been to too many places over the last 40 years.

I hope that your findings are right, and you have the advantage of examining the item in person. The picture does not show enough detail.

Ni hao Randy Lee,

You have for viewing in an additional posting, a few close ups of the V-shape sonorous jade. The dimensions are: 7 X 6 cm. and the thickness is 0.2 cm. at the edge. Both sides are identical and does not make sense to be repetitive. Thank you for volunteering your help, graciously I decline your offer as already I know the answers and I posted the quiz only for learning process of the viewers and not for myself. Purposely, I have chosen jade carvings that have a provenance, in other words, we know what they are, their identity and their vetting was done by real experts and not persons that have no credentials to identify and attribute a jade carving. You claim that it might have been as an abstract form of Qing. I don't know what you meant by using the adjective "abstract" to this jade carving, but I assure you that this is not an abstract object. Continuing on, you state:

"I actually see some mild alterations on the surface that could be tiny raised crystals in the picture."

For bettering of your knowledge, there is no "raised crystal" phenomenon in ancient or archaic jade and never was. This term is an aberration of science and completely distortion of visible changes on ancient and archaic jade and created for the only goal to promote selling of physically altered carvings as genuine archaic jade. What is described as "raised crystals" are actually deposits of sedimentary organic material on the surface of the jade. This organic material is a result of chemical reaction at the jade surface and certainly the Chinese guy who invented this term, does not know what the word crystal means. Occasionally, the raised deposits on the jade surface are combined with calcination and erosion that is a phenomenon below the jade surface. From thousands and thousands of archaic and ancient jade carvings I examined, certainly I can state that I never have seen a jade carving with "raised crystals" and I don't have any of such specimen in my collection. All the stones that I saw on Internet (please note that I don't specify jade) that display so called micro-crystallization, were physically altered, in other words, are truly fakes. If you want to keep yourself a good name as knowledgeable in Asian arts, then you should restrain of using the word "raised crystals" as this DOES NOT EXIST!.
I appreciate your honesty in declaring that you did not read books "for quite a while". A true scholar needs to read continuously in order to keep up with the new discoveries and myself as a scholar, I declare with humble feelings that more I know, I realize how little I know. I wrote 4 reference books treating the Asian antiques and for each book, I dedicated enormous amount in research of anything written about the subject. Most of the old information is now obsolete, attribution of a specific antique to a specific period is a tremendous task, always subject to error. You claim that you saw V-shape sonorous jade, but you don't recall where. The only Chinese reference book in modern times treating jade carvings as part of the Chinese antiques in general, is the book of Wu Da Cheng who was a high ranking officer in the Chinese imperial army during the reign of emperor Guang Hsu ( see as reference the book "Jade, 5000 BC to 1912 AD", page 5 on Introduction chapter.) This book was printed in Chinese in 1889 and never translated in any Western language. The jade drawings were hand drawn and no photographs were provided. This book is extremely rare, was not reprinted and if you saw the Qing drawing in this book, then you are a lucky person (without hesitation, I offer you $5000 for this book). To my best knowledge, my book on jade is the only Western world book that published photos and description of V-shape sonorous jade. For your reference, see in the book cited as above, 4 photos of V-shape sonorous jade on page 61, Shang period chapter and in addition, 3 sets of sonorous jade on page 274, chapter 23, jade musical instruments. If you want to be known as a teacher and literate, I advise you that in the future, you might use caution of making statements in absence of evidence to back your statements.
Zai jian Randy Lee lao shi!

Haha! I actually had photo-copied the whole Gu Yu To Pu in the early 1990's. It took two persons, two copiers, and almost one whole day to do that! The books were extremely rare, but not copy-righted! The photo-copies costed a lot of money!

Raised crystals is in fact an official geological terminology that most jade experts are not aware, or don't agree on jades. Water can sip through micro-fissures on jade surface and alter the mineral around the crystals(such as pyroxene or tremolite)and turn it into a clay-like substance that expands and pushes the crystal out of the jade surface.

I personally had handled thousands of jades over the last 40 years. Most of the jades I handled were Shu-Keng or Chuan-Shi-Gu. I had seen natural raised crystals on Sheng-Keng, but I did not know how to explained that phenomenon when I was young.

I have not been active in jade study for quite a while due to other priorities in life!

I have to admit that I am simply not expert enough to say whether the piece posted here by Mircea is archaic or not. However I was puzzled with several things here:

(1) It is very possible this piece may be indeed made in the Shang dynasty as Micea stated. However, so far I had not seen any evidence or references being provided in supporting his opinion.

The only evidence so far provided by him was "this jade carving has an illustrious provenance and was purchased in Beijing between 1907 to 1909."

If this is indeed true, that can only show that it was indeed as old as 1907 - 1909 and nothing else.

(2) The only two citations Micea used in supporting the authenticity of his piece, seems to me, are from his own book.

The citation he quoted from Rawson's book did not seem to have anything to do with providing supports for his attribution.

Therefore, basically if I understand correctly, we really have not seen any evidence or reference offered by Mircea in his attribution of this piece as that of Shang dynasty except his own professional opinion.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not trying to show any disrespect to his expertise in jade. I am simply puzzled that while he believed he could attribute a jade piece based on his opinion alone (citing from his own book is basically citing his own opinion) while at the same time he asked Randy to:

"I challenge you to support your belief. For the benefit of the learning process, please present in an academic fashion, were you derived your knowledge, with citation of books, publications (with chapter, page number) etc."

May be he can do the same as he requested Randy to do?

(3) Finally, I was also puzzled with his statement:

"I believe you are influenced by posting of many low end items that appear on the Forum."

I am not sure if he meant this forum or the other forum.

Either way, I guess I would be guilty in being one of the people who had posted many low end items in this or the other forum.

However, how did that have anything to do with Randy's expertise in jade? I am sorry I do not understand the connection between the two.

Yes, I have seen nephrite jade with this type of brown yellowish color that almost looks like serpentine but were actually nephrite. However that did not make them authentic Shang jades. I am puzzled with whether Mircea had performed any testing in confirming whether this piece was indeed made of nephrite or he just assumed that it was made of nephrite based on its illustrated provenance. The word nephrite was never used in the sales listing of this piece

(see link http://fineartamerica.com/featured/translucent-yellow-sonorous-jade-used-as-musical-instrument-ancient-lapidary-artist.html)

and it was simply described as Translucent yellow sonorous jade. In China, jade can be anything including serpentine or Dushan jade.

Therefore while I cannot prove that this piece is not that of Shang dynasty I have a hard time in believing that it was indeed an authentic Shang dynasty piece. The quality and type of its material simply fails to convince me. For me to spend $ 3,000 to buy such a piece, I would require more evidence than just its illustrious provenance. I also find the timing of this posting coincides with the sales of such a piece (or a piece looks exactly like it) extremely disturbing.

Again, I am not trying to be disrespectful to anybody including Mircea and I hope my opinion would not deter him from his continued participation in this forum. I believe his recent involvements in this forum did bring a lot of energy back to the jade discussions and for that I am grateful. I am almost sure there would be a lot we can learn from him in the future.

Bill

Hello Bill,
I will try to answer all your questions and doubts you expressed. The V-shape sonorous jade is attributed by me to Shang period due to the fact that this jade carving is similar in composition of the stone with other jade carvings I have from the same provenance, clearly attributed to Pre-Anyang Shang period (Late neolithic period.) Nevertheless, the V-shape sonorous jade was used as such, from Pre-Anyang Shang to Western Han period. Regarding the references you want me to cite in support of my attribution, the only books I can cite is Berthold Laufer book and my own book. I know you like to search the literature on a subject; I would remain grateful forever if you would be able to provide with any additional reference in this subject and tip my hat to you. The book of Wu Da Cheng as well as Jessica Rawson reference book, as well as any jade books published in the last 50 years, don't even mention the sonorous jade. To my best knowledge, the only mention you will read in several books, is the fact that the emperors in the dynasties above mentioned, used to wear jade on their girdle and also jade on their hat. When the emperor was walking, the sound of several jade carvings hanging fom his girdle and hat, made everybody envious and desirous for such kind of ornaments that only the emperor was entitled to. The sonorous jade had no ornaments carved on the surface and any ornaments on the jade are obvious signs of reproductions. This carving is made from nephrite jade, obviously I tested it. I don't take the illustrious provenance as the authenticity and attribution proof. The fact that the V-shape sonorous jade was placed for sale on one of my websites at the same time with my quiz is a coincidence caused by the simple fact that I took several photos of this jade carving at the same time and if yourself would not advertise it, then would not be noticeable.
You mentioned the price that to you is exorbitant. Bill, you are accustomed to purchase "jade carvings" on the Ebay for $4.35 and one time I advised you that rather than purchasing 100 pieces of low end, jade or not jade, buy one piece that is of the highest quality. I believe, you as many of the collectors and contributors on this forum, have a strong dislike toward the dealers. In my opinion, any collector will become sooner or later a dealer. What would you do with all the duplicates and the junk you accumulated during your earlier novice period?. Bartering is a possibility, but a larger collection might need weeding and eventually, dispersion. Remember, a trusted dealer is your best friend, while a dishonest dealer is your worst enemy!.
Mircea Veleanu

Dear Mircea:

I believe you, like all other jade collectors, are having troubles in selling your "archaic jades", especially during this economic hard times and therefore you are trying your very best to convince other jade collectors especially novices like me whom you believe should "kowtow" to the expertise of jade experts like you and in trusting your expertise unquestionably by paying a large amount for so called "archaic jades" in bargain prices.

Please note that I did not call your selling your "archaic" pieces in exorbitant prices, you did. If they are truly as you attributed, then acutally they are all real bargains. Unfortunately, after seeing all these pieces posted by you in this forum and in other sites, and after listening to your expertise regarding jade material including Taiwan jade (you said no nephrite jade were ever found in Taiwan) I now conclude that although you had indeed written a jade book, I do not believe you really know any more about jade especially jade material than me. I also conclude that you do not know more about dynasty jades than either Randy or for that matter, Anita. You surely do not know too much about Hongshan jade and I believe Diasi is still the one who knows Hongshan jade the most in this or other jade forum. No disrespect intended, this is just my honest appraisal.

You see, buying cheap pieces from eBay, study, test and examine each of them closely actually afford me the rare opportunity in being able to tell how a fake piece should look like. Therefore, I can tell right away your Hongshan rhyton (or whatever you want to call it) was not made of nephrite jade, but serpentine, is not an authentic Hongshan piece but a modern fantasty piece because it was actually made worse than some of these $25 Hongshan style pieces that were once readily available on eBay. (*Interestingly, there are no longer that many cheap nephrite Hongshan style jades available on eBay any more. I believe some of them, while they were not Hongshan, they were actually quite old.) I understand that it will be very difficult for you to accept such obvious fact (that your pieces are not authentic) from a jade novice like me comparing with an "established" jade expert/writer like you. I would also like to apoligize in advance that I may have ruined your chance of making BIG money from the sales of your "archaic jades" inadvertently by dare to express my honest opinions.

There is a slight possibility that a few of your pieces may be as archaic as you described and they might be truly "vetted" by jade collectors as you said. If that is truly the case, then I believe you should have no troubles in selling them via large auction houses to all these jade collectors with huge wallets and will not need to humble yourself in showing your great piece in this or other forum. Again, no disrespect intended. I just would like to point out the obvious fact to you that no matter how expert you may believe yourself in jade, there are still a lot of things you do not know about jades. You cannot attribut a jade piece as archaic and authentic without showing any support and proof and yet at the same time you demand otheres (such as Randy) in doing so. To do so is to have double standard.

I actually would purchase a jade piece from Anita before I would buy any one from your collection. ((Of course she would probably not sell me one.) We have our differences but I believe she actually knows more about jade than you. I know it will be hard for you to swallow this obvious fact but this is how I truly feel. Once again, I would like to beg your forgiveness if I have offened you. Thank you for your comments.

Bill

Bill!

You are having a wild mis-conception about my intentions in posting a subject for learning purpose; I quote your writing:

"I believe you, like all other jade collectors, are having troubles in selling your "archaic jades", especially during this economic hard times and therefore you are trying your very best to convince other jade collectors especially novices like me whom you believe should "kowtow" to the expertise of jade experts like you and in trusting your expertise unquestionably by paying a large amount for so called "archaic jades" in bargain prices."

When I posted the quiz of sonorous jade, I had no intentions at all to convince any member of this Forum including yourself, to purchase any items that are on my website.
First of all, I am not a poor person and I am not depending on an income deriving from antique selling including jade.
You like to do detective work and I don't blame you for such. What I believe is un-ethical from you is to presume that I want to sell to Forum members, items listed for sale in my websites. As this Forum is dedicated to promotion of knowledge and not promotion of sale of items, your beliefs are offensive and malicious. Were you sober when you wrote the above??
Why the collectors would sell their collections ??
I thought the dealers are selling their inventory, while the collectors gathers the objects. I don't know what is "kowtow" you wrote, Is this a Cantonese expression??
I quote your writing again:

"after seeing all these pieces posted by you in this forum and in other sites, and after listening to your expertise regarding jade material including Taiwan jade (you said no nephrite jade were ever found in Taiwan) I now conclude that although you had indeed written a jade book, I do not believe you really know any more about jade especially jade material than me. I also conclude that you do not know more about dynasty jades than either Randy or for that matter, Anita. You surely do not know too much about Hongshan jade and I believe Diasi is still the one who knows Hongshan jade the most in this or other jade forum. No disrespect intended, this is just my honest appraisal. "

I believe what you are saying is the most offensive statement I have read so far!
Suddenly, you, that yourself recognize as being a novice, became an expert and render malicious opinions that are completely not based on reality. I was very much in doubt if I should respond to your nasty statement and lower myself to your level of knowledge, or just ignore your pestilent writings.
In regard to "Taiwan jade", you should read the response I posted in the Forum regarding this subject. You want to appear as a knowledgeable reader and citing different publications. You are a dangerous, ignorant person who throws mud to scholars and your arrogant behavior is despicable!!!
You are claiming that tons of nephrite was excavated from Taiwan !!!
Nothing is further from the truth than the above. The tons of excavated material was marble!!!!
At one time, Taiwan was the biggest marble exporter in the world, second only to Italy.
I don't care at all about your opinion regarding my qualifications as a jade expert and even if you would ever like to purchase jade or any antique from my websites. I would not sell to you!
Further on, I quote you:

"There is a slight possibility that a few of your pieces may be as archaic as you described and they might be truly "vetted" by jade collectors as you said. If that is truly the case, then I believe you should have no troubles in selling them via large auction houses to all these jade collectors with huge wallets and will not need to humble yourself in showing your great piece in this or other forum."

I am not humbling myself by exhibiting jade pieces from my collection to this Forum members. I repeat again for your stubborn inability to comprehend what I write, I don't need to post jade items in a Forum with the hope that I will sell them to the members of the Forum. My intentions were very clear and I REPEAT again just for YOU: posting of the quiz was done without prejudice and with the only intention of promoting knowledge of the readers.
By error, this post was done on the Message Board, rather than the forum. However, no advertising of any website was ever done.
From now on, it is my pleasure to allow you to present your "jade" collection to the Forum.
I doubt that any knowledgeable expert will ever appear on this Forum with the intention to teach, when people like you discredit, insult and belittle!!!
Mircea Veleanu

There are some points that I do not agree!

I do not agree that the item is from Shang. I do not study just jade books, I studied art history in many different area. I also had the advantage of reading ancient Chinese, and I had read many old scripts from different sources. The standardized V-shape Qing should be attributed to a much later period. If the item is being too small and it can't make a sound, it may indicate that it was made as a miniature "Toy" which was meant to be a replica to symbolize a real Qing.

I also do not agree with the statement that the jade Qings should have no motif, and the Qings with ornamental motif had to be reproductions. Many famous Qings on record were carved on the surface. Many were of irregular shapes. Those with standardized shapes such as the V's were modeled after the bronze version. They were attributed to later periods such as Han and post Han.

It is more than just the emperors who would wear strands of jades as girdle ornaments. "古之君子必佩玉"(Gu Zhi Jun Zi Bi Pei Yu)-a scholar with high virtue(or a person with noble character)always wore strands of jade girdle ornaments in ancient time. Check this link:

http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.php?forum=1&id=21655#21666

As for the above item's provenance of being purchased in Beijing around 1907-1908 by a credible and respectful person, that is good news! But, it is still short of providing the exact dating of the actual item. Further evaluation and dating by another expert is necessary! An expert will need vetting from at least another expert to avoid conflict of interest! For instance, all museums need to have commercial appraisers estimate their stocks of collections for insurance purpose, even though the appraisers are clearly less qualified than the curators!

Dear Mircea:

Please DO NOT put words in my mouth by saying,

"I believe, you as many of the collectors and contributors on this forum, have a strong dislike toward the dealers."

This is not how I feel. I do not have strong dislike toward any dealers who are making an honest living. I do have strong dislike for dealers who are knowingly misrepresent the items sold by them and sell fake items as authentic to unknowingly customers. Do you consider yourself to be one of them?

As a matter of fact, I did know some honest dealers whose purpose is not to rip off their customers.

"In my opinion, any collector will become sooner or later a dealer. What would you do with all the duplicates and the junk you accumulated during your earlier novice period?. Bartering is a possibility, but a larger collection might need weeding and eventually, dispersion."

I cannot disagree with you more in that regard. That is a main difference between a dealer and a collector. A dealer has to buy and sell all the time in order to make a living and who may not even care in what they are selling as long as they can make a profit. A collector collcts what they love and enjoy and profit will not be the ulimate motive. Will an investor who buy and sell stocks be called a "stock broker"?

It is also not true that I have to ever disperse my jade collection. If I cannot sell it, I will just give them away or put them on my backyard as decorations. I can afford to do so. Now I do not believe I would have any troubles in selling any of my mutton-fat or Hetian jade carvings. Their prices can only keep on going up.

"Remember, a trusted dealer is your best friend, while a dishonest dealer is your worst enemy!. "

I cannot agree with you more on this statement.
However, I learn in very early age, when it comes to money and if a person has to choose between you or him, there is not really that many people who will have the integrity of giving the advantage (moneywise) to another person.
Which one do you consider yourself? Honest or dishonest? Again, no disrespect intended.

My advice to all jade collectors is not to trust any dealers and not to buy too many expensive items from them until you really know them and you have an opportunity in testing them.

As a coin collector, when a dealer tries to sell me a great item, the best limitus test is to see if he will buy back the coin he sold me and how much he would pay for it. That will tell how honest the dealer is. This may apply to jade dealer.

Bill

The jade knowledge I cited were from my over 40 years of jade collecting and over 30 years of reading through libraries and bookstores of different cities in America and the Orient. Computer was not popular, and the time-constraints made me read and turn the pages as fast as I could when I traveled to a different city visiting another library or bookstore. I spent more time on color-plates and pictures of different books, and I seldom had time to take notes.

It will be difficult for me to cite the exact source of information. But, I had read many topics that are not circulating nowadays. At certain times, I focused more in purchasing specimen to improve my knowledge and to train for sharper treasure-hunting eyes. I had already spent more amount than what most collectors would on books and equipment, not to mention about specimen!

I agree that the kind of quiz like the above can promote archaic and antique jade interest! Anyone can agree and disagree! I feel that this is a place for knowledge and friendship exchange rather than a place to discredit one and others!

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/translucent-yellow-sonorous-jade-used-as-musical-instrument-ancient-lapidary-artist.html

Allowing viewer to see full resolution picture of certain portion of the piece inside the green rectangular viewing area?

B

http://objets-d-art-uniques.fineartamerica.com/

Three pieces including the one posted here were apparently for sale and came from the same collection.

This one, "Neolithic Period Hong Shan Culture Jade Carving of Mythical Creature - Neolithic Lapidary Artist

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/neolithic-period-hong-shan-culture-jade-carving-of-mythical-creature-neolithic-lapidary-artist.html

was listed for sale for $ 25,000 and its size was listed as 6.000 x 26.000 cm.

This is a pretty large piece if the size listed is correct. It was described as made of nephrite yellow jade.

Its provenance was listed as: Dr. Mircea Veleanu's collection, the author of the collectors' textbook: "Jade, 5000 BC to 1912 AD, Guide to collectors".

I find there are several things very disturbing about this piece:

(1) I have studied over 1,000 Hongshan or Hongshan style carvings including authentic pieces published on reliable jade books or jade carvings made of similar material as this piece. I can tell by the picture with almost 90% certainty that this piece was not made of yellow nephrite jade, but rather it was made of celadon Xiu Yan (serpentine) jade. Its color was often described by the Chinese jade experts as Qing (pale green) and not as yellow. As a matter of fact, while there are indeed genuine yellow nephrite jade, but they were so rare that even a small piece would be hard to find and one with such a size that was big enough to "carve" this Hongshan rhyton is almost unheard of. If it is indeed made of genuine nephrite, that would be almost impossible for the Hongshan people to dissect it and to hollow it out to form a rhyton. Even with today's modern tools, it would not be that easy.

(2) The carving lines shown in the forming of its eye and on the back of its head look very suspicious upon enlarging them(with the full resolution view feature provided). Those carving lines look like they were made with modern carving tools. The color of the carving lines look white, indicating that this piece can be scratched and therefore was not made of nephrite. Furthermore, the carving lines were made extremely sloppy and are almost an insult to authentic Hongshan carvings. The shape of the eye is also unseen in any of authentic Hongshan carvings.

(3) While there are indeed a few large Hongshan jade carvings but they were extremely rare and were made of unique nephrite material unlike this piece. The jade material and quality of carving of this piece is simply nothing close to the authentic one. The form or style of this piece had not been seen in any excavated Hongshan sites. With such a large piece and to have a seemingly hollow shape (it is supposed to be a rhyton), it is almost far fetching to imagine how the Hongshan people can cut and "carve" (hollow out) such a large piece without the assistance of any metal tools. Also, why would they make such a piece? What is its purpose? I cannot recall seeing any genuine Hongshan rhyton pieces anywhere. (*Now I am saying that somebody will post one here and that would be great.)

In short, I believe this is simply a modern fantasy piece, almost absolutely not made of genuine yellow nephrite jade, but with cheaper modern serpentine that can still be readily found in the Liaoning area. Its quality of carving is simply too inferior to be considered as that of Hong Shan

Of course, I can be wrong since I am not any Hongshan jade expert and if that is the case, I would like to apologize to the owner and seller of this piece in advance.

Thanks.

Bill

Hello again Bill!
While this posting is a quiz about sonorous jade, you are digressing from the main subject and asking questions in regard to a Hong Shan carving that is on one of my websites. I feel obliged to answer to your several questions. You claim that you have viewed more than 1000 Hong Shan carvings but I never saw a carving like this. First of all, there are in existence very few Hong Shan jade carvings. 99% of all Hong Shan carvings are made from hardstone, mostly bowenite (from Inner Mongolia) and a few made from serpentine (originating from Lioning). The color of the hardstone Hong Shan carvings (please note that I don't use the term nephrite or jade) in the great majority is very dark brown, almost black and has brownish inclusions. A few of Hong Shan carvings that are made of serpentine are green, but opaque, not the translucent, inclusions free serpentine, we are accustomed to. This rhyton jade is extremely rare, probably unique (you did not see one like this, me either). With certitude is not serpentine, but carved from high quality celadon jade. The price on the website is extremely low as small pieces of Hong Shan nephrite sold at auctions in China is in hundreds of thousands of US dollars. The examination of the carving shows a damage on the nostril of the mythical winged creature and the high magnification reveals that the carving is archaic. The website did not provide any additional photos of the area of archaic or ancient damage. The surface of the carving reveals meticulous polished surface typical to Hong Shan carvings. The nostrils have drilling done in the typical neolithic fashion and oblique side to side typical for Hong Shan. The eyes of the creature are enormous and almond shaped, typical for Hong Shan. Regarding the carving lines, erroneously, you described as done with modern tooling. I don't blame you but most of the Hong Shan "experts" don't know what it is modern tooling and you learnt the wrong things from those people. If you look to the carving line, you notice that the line is U shape with margins that are rounded. The bottom of the carved line is narrow, as was carved with a tool that is conic shape. The word "carving" is a misnom, as the drilling was done with a bamboo or wood instrument that had at the end a corundum pomade. All neolithic carvings are crude for the above reasons and I blame your "teacher experts" you learnt from the other forum for the bad wording as " the carving lines were made extremely sloppy and are almost an insult to authentic Hongshan carvings".
If you have ever seen any Hong Shan, or any neolithic carvings that are not crude, please post a photo of such (no fakes or repros, please). The quality of carving of this Hong Shan jade is absolutely superb and typical for the neolithic period. The rhyton is not having a deep hollow cavity and as a subject, I agree that was not described as such for the Hong Shan carvings, this makes it being so rare!. The interior of the carved line is not white, but if you have seen a white deposit, then this is material that sedimented in the crevice. This carving was never cleaned, I don't clean any antique jade and I consider cleaning of the jade as destroying the possibility to attribute its authenticity as an antique object.
I don't want to hurt your ego, but you need to learn more from real scholars and not from Chicochai Forum experts, some of them I am aware joined this forum as well. You are very much willing to learn and I am sure that your knowledge will increase with the time.
I planed to write a quiz regarding Hong Shan carvings, with photo illustrations and at present time i am not sure if I would do so.
Mircea Veleanu

Dear Mircea:

The only reason I found your other piece is when I tried to find more info on your so called "sonorous" jade and I happened to come across another piece that looks exactly like yours (even the background) and in there I found your "authentic" Hongshan piece. It is amazing that you posted your "archaic piece" in this forum to test all the members while you are also trying to sell these other pieces. I found the coincidence simply amazing.

One of the easy ways in determining how good a dealer's items really are is by looking at all the items as a whole. If most of them are questionable then there is very little chance that one will find any authentic pieces there.

I regret to say that I am extremely disappointed with your knowledge in Hongshan jades.

May I respectfully ask you: "Exactly what Hongshan reference books are you using as your references in attributing your authentic Hongshan pieces?"

First of all, in your first statement:

"First of all, there are in existence very few Hong Shan jade carvings."

You need to define how much is a few. Have you ever read my translation of the interview with a news reporter made by the late Mr. Sun ShouDao, one of the top Hongshan jade experts, in China in which he estimated the number of authentic Hongshan jades he believe were still in existence?

Secondly, your statement:

"99% of all Hong Shan carvings are made from hardstone, mostly bowenite (from Inner Mongolia) and a few made from serpentine"

shows your lack of understanding of Hongshan jades because you simply have no clue in what material authentic Hongshan jade carvings were made of.

I advise you to read the article written by Mr. Zhou Nam Quan, another top Hongshan jade expert in China regarding material of authentic Hongshan jade carvings. I had translated the article and posted it in the other jade forum.

Please forgive me for sounding so arrogant because I am not. I am no Hongshan expert, exactly like you said, therefore I have to learn it from the top Hongshan jade experts in China who had personally involved in the excavations and studies of Hongshan jades from known Hongshan sites.

Your statement regarding the material of your authentic Hongshan jade rhyton truly confused me:

"This rhyton jade is extremely rare, probably unique (you did not see one like this, me either). With certitude is not serpentine, but carved from high quality celadon jade."

In your sales listing of this piece, it was clearly described as "nephrite yellow jade carving" and yet in your recent message you now called it "high quality celadon jade", �extremely rare� and is not serpentine." Would you please confirm if you really believe it is yellow or celadon? If it is not serpentine, is it nephrite? If it is not nephrite, is it bowenite? Had you even tested it before you listed the piece? Are you sure what it was made of?

Please allow me to repeat my opinion regarding the material of this HS rhyton:

It was not made of nephrite. It is not rare. It is made of serpentine or bowenite (if it cannot be scratched). I am 90% sure the S.G. of this piece cannot be higher than 2.70 and therefore there is simply no way this piece is made of nephrite. Such a large piece of nephrite did not exist in Liaoning at Neolithic times. Even if it existed, there was simply impossible for the Hongshan people to cut such a large piece and to "carve" it into a rhyton.

I am posting pictures of several pieces of Hongshan style carvings that were made of similar material for you to compare. I am also posting a beautiful Hongsha jade bird for you to see how beautiful a Hongshan jade carvings should look like in both its material and quality of carving.

Your statement "All neolithic carvings are crude" simply cannot apply to Hongshan jade carvings. May I ask where did you learn about the carving technique of Hongshan jade carvings or for that matter that of any Neolithic jade items?

May I recommend the following book to you:

ISBN's: 9570135867
史前琢玉工艺技术 钱宪和 & 方建能
Shiqian zhuoyu gongyi jishu [Prehistoric Jade Carving Techniques]
Qian, Xianhe & Fang, Jianneng Item # 33645 ISBN 9570135867

You see, the reason for so many Chinese and western collectors to go crazy over Hongshan jade carvings is because they may be the "best" jade carvings money can buy with respect to both the quality of the carving skills displayed on them and the material used in "carving" them.

Each piece was painstakingly "carved" (yes I do know that you cannot carve jade but it is easier to use the word) for many years and therefore each authentic piece is a master piece of art.

You really cannot see any tool marks on any authentic Hongshan jade carving because there were three different "carving" techniques being applied in the making of each single carving line. First of all, some types of non-metal tu (bamboo, wood, stone, etc.) compounded with high-hardness grit (such as agate/quartz; I never heard of corundum used by HS) was used to form short and separate horizontal tu lines along the planned long carving line. Then another tu would join all these small horizontal carving lines together by moving vertically inside these horizontal lines, expanding each of them and connected them together. If they stopped right here, it would almost look like a railroad track or the Chinese character 非 fei. However, they would continue to use a rod drill with a high-hardness stone tied on its top, then moved it horizontally back and forth along the long carving lines to smooth out all the vertical carving lines. As a result, it would be very difficult for you to see any types of tool marks. However, sometimes with the assistance of a 10x loupe and by moving the piece in different angles, you would be able to see all three "carving" techniques being seen on top of each other. This type of carving techniques could be found on Hongshan pieces only. They were wildly discussed by all Hongshan jade experts in China but were rarely mentioned in any jade books written by western jade writers.

As to the polishing skill of the Hongshan people, it is bar none, no other cultures or dynasties can even compare with them. I regret to say your piece was made with modern carving tools and polished with modern high speed tools with extremely hard polishing paste such as diamond paste. Its luster is simply much inferior to any authentic Hongshan jade carvings, in my opinion.

Yes, it is true that "small pieces of Hong Shan nephrite sold at auctions in China is in hundreds of thousands of US dollars."

Doesn't your statement contradict with what you said earlier: "99% of all Hong Shan carvings are made from hardstone". How can there be so many pieces of Hongshan nephrite for sale in Chinese auctions when 99% of them were made of hard stones?

Yes, indeed the reason why so many authentic Hongshan jade carvings look like newly made jade carvings with superb luster even after burying in ground for so many years is because:

(1) Most of them were indeed made of high-quality nephrite jade that is in the same quality of Hetian jade. For a while, many Hongshan jade experts in China were genuinely puzzled because they could not figure out how in the world the Hongshan people could have transported such high quality nephrite jade from such far away place - Khotan, XinJiang. Only later when some Chinese University professors had found small samples of high quality nephrite jades in the Hongshan area did they solve such puzzle.

(2) Many jade collectors believe an authentic Hongshan jade carving should be full of corrosion due to its age and should have weathering and corrosion all over its surface. That is far from the truth. Due to the fact that many of them were made of high quality nephrite and many Hongshan tombs were found in higher ground or they were air-tight stone tombs, therefore the burial environment were extremely dry. As a result, many authentic Hongshan jades were preserved in perfect conditions, once cleaned with mild soap and water only, they would have this blinding "gem" luster on them.

Many Hongshan jade collectors mistaken such a natural luster which was resulted from superb polishing skill on superb jade material as a result of "waxing". No waxing can result in such marvelous luster.

Therefore while I respect your status as that of a jade book writer and seemingly know more about jade in general than me, I must caution you in not to speak like a Hongshan jade expert until you have the chance to go to China and study with such Hongshan guru, Mr. Guo Dashun and examine authentic pieces in person under his guidance:

http://www.paragonbook.com/html/browsesubj/fullcitation.cfm?item=31736

That is what I plan to do when I retire.

As a matter of fact, I found many members in the other jade forum are much more serious in the collection of Hongshan jades and they have studied a lot regarding Hongshan jades and seem to know about Hongshan jades than you, from what I have observed so far. May be you should post your Hongshan rhyton there and allow them to appraise it.

Of course, I can very well be wrong with your piece since the picture of your rhytone is simply not good enough to attribute it with 100% accuracy.

Lastly, I am not so sure you should give anybody any quiz about Hongshan jade carvings until you have established that you are indeed an expert in Hongshan jade. Again, no disrespect intended. This is simply a friendly advice. Again, I would like to apologize to you if I have inadvertently hurt your feeling and since you are very willing to learn, I believe may be indeed we can help each other in learning more about Hongshan jades or other aspect of jades.

Thanks.

Bill

P.S. The jade carvings posted by me with similar material as your HS rhyton are by no means authentic. They are for comparison purpose only. However, the HS bird is a great piece.

Hi Bill,
The purpose of posting a quiz on a piece of sonorous jade carving was to bring the participation of a lot of people in sharing their knowledge. You like to apologize a lot of being disrespectful, but your arrogant way of posing malicious questions invites for the respondent to justify his position of making a statement. You always claim modestly that you are not a jade expert, however, you are acting as such. I can't lower myself to your level and defend each personal attack you make against myself. You can express your opinion and this represent your personal opinion. As you already revealed that you started collecting jade just a few years ago, you are still a novice. Your jade testing methods were atrocious, boiling, treating with strong acids or alkaline substances, or even washing with water and soap. Anything done as above will destroy the jade substance, or at least will destroy the age patina. You were always confused and in denial of other people's jade pieces value or authenticity. You posted mile long dissertations that even your friends Diasai and Mui did not have patience to read. Your posting of photos of "jade carvings" were of such low quality, that anybody else will be ashamed to post. You were ridiculed in the Forum and I felt compassion for you as I felt that you are trying to learn and communicate your knowledge. Now, you are an expert in Hong Shan jade, cite interviews in Chinese with Chinese officials, cite books printed in Chinese that only Chinese people can read, etc. Chinese language is difficult to understand as there is no translation for the specialty terms, the meanings are not clear and consequently not accepted by the Western readers that can't read Chinese. You are posting 4 photos of Hong Shan style carvings clearly made from bowenite and not nephrite.
What you want to prove by posting these photos??
I don't expect that you will ever purchase any jade carvings that could sell more than $20 and obviously, I would never dream that you would purchase a jade carving that cost $3000, or more. You state with such authority and cite Chinese references that only you and your friend Diasai can read, in regards to how Hong Shan pieces were carved!!. As there are no records of how carving was done in the neolithic period, everything you cite is pure speculation of one writer and expressing a personal opinion. Embracing that opinion with such enthusiasm as you manifest, is simply not comprehensible.
It was in my intention to post several photos of the Hong Shan rhyton with close ups so you could understand how I attributed the rhyton to Hong Shan culture, nevertheless, I am disgusted with your attitude and frankly, I don't give a damn about what you or any other nasty posters believe about my website items for sale. This Forum is not for selling items or promoting antiques for sale and rather for enhancing the knowledge of the members.
Mircea Veleanu

Dear Mircea:

So your best defense (defence) for your lack of knowledge in Hongshan jade and for that matter jade material is to attack me?

You really do not have any idea of how an authentic Hongshan jade carving should look like, do you? Because if you have even bothered to study them you should immediately recognize that the last Hongshan bird I posted in my last message is an authentic Hongshan piece posted by the well-known Mr. Zhou Nam Quan in his article regarding credible material for authentic Hongshan jade carvings.

Have you even read a single Hongshan jade book written by Professor Guo Dashun, the late Mr. Sun ShouDo, Mr. Zhou Nam Quan, Mr. Qing Xu, Mr. Gu Fang or Mr. Boda Yang? Do you even have any ideas who they are?

If you have not even heard of any one of the above people or have read any books/articles written by them, I regret to say that you know nothing about Hongshan jades and please stop acting like a Hongshan jade expert or for that matter an expert in jade, period.

You see, I have never claimed that I am expert in anything but I have one BIG advantage over you in that I can read and write Chinese fluently, I can speak both Mandarian and Cantonese fluently, and therefore I can read and learn from the best Jade experts in China while you cannot. (*Actually you can if you want to, because some of their book had English sections.) That does not mean I am expert in anything but only means I will not make such blanket and absolute statement such as:

"There was no nephrite jade discovered in Taiwan."

Again, I am sorry if I have upset you or if I seem to be arrogant (which I admit I was sometimes) but just I cannot stand anybody who will talk down to me and try to act as my teacher while himself is not qualified to do so. That is why I refute your postings because just like the title of a message posted by another member I believe they are:

"Nonsense."

You cannot continue to demand other members to post evidence and reference to support their statements regarding jade carvings or jade material while you continue to post your own personal opinions or quoting from your own books as "reference or evidence" to support your own arguments. That is just not acceptable in this forum or in the academic world. Until you can do what you demand others to do, you will never be a scholar in anything or earn the respect from even novices like me.

I believe I have said all I want to say in this matter and I advise you not to make things worse than they are.

Thanks.

Bill

As to Mircea Veleanu's comments, I say: "Consider the Source"!

His book, "Netsuke" has been reviewed by some of the world's most prominent and respected netsuke collectors, and their comments on the text and photos of "souvenir" netsuke rate it in the DO NOT BUY catagory (Reviewscout.com).
Mr. Veleanu wrote a comment rebuttal with the same arrogant, self-important attitude he has displayed in this Forum, which greatly contributed to his "self-appointed expert" status.
Mr. Veleanu's comments in this Forum and Message Board are worthless to those of us who have a serious interest in the study of jade, and I suggest that they be ignored.

Roger

Bravo, Roger:

For some reasons I missed your message about MV and his book on Netsuke and now I read it I cannot help but keep saying,

"Bravo, Roger"

Incidentally, the comments listed on Amazon.com for his jade book "Jade: 5000 B.C. to 1912 A.D., a Guide for Collectors (Schiffer Book for Collectors) (Hardcover)" is:

15 of 20 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars Vanity book on jade, June 1, 2006
By Edith B. Terry (Hong Kong) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
I ordered this book hoping that it would attempt to provide a reference tool on authentication, dating and typology of jade for Western collectors. Such books exist in Chinese language, although they tend to be overly subjective, written by collectors, or narrowly academic, written by academics. There are also Chinese-language references for the general public that are simplistic and lacking in the most basic grounding in history and academic references.

This turns out to be a highly subjective book by an amateur Western collector with little or no knowledge of the extensive bibliography on jade in Western languages, let alone Chinese. I am tempted to throw this book away. Almost all of the jade illustrated is fake or very crude, or misattributed (Liangzhu culture to Shang, for example). Here and there an interesting piece sneaks in but this author would not be able to identify it or tell the reader what makes it interesting.

About the only redeeming feature of the book is an introduction in which Mr. Veleanu talks about his own life experience and how he came, quite late in life, to an interest in jade. I only hope that he applied more rigor to his studies of medicine than he does to his research on jade.

Edith Terry"

and another review:

"19 of 25 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars Rip-off. Not worth the money., September 21, 2005
By Khung Keong Yeo "Max" (California) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
The author is not an expert on jade at all. Features pieces from own private collection and some of the descriptions are obviously inaccurate (eg. Goddess of Mercy holding a fly swatter???!!!). Would give it -ve stars if possible. I am also aghast that the publishers did not have more rigorous standards."

Now the most interesting part is I found a comment posted seemingly by the author himself in responding to this review:

" Initial post: Jul 25, 2008 9:57 PM PDT
Mircea Veleanu says:
Khung Keong Yeo!
Max,
Are you a joker or the most ignorant Chinese man I have ever met!
What's wrong to display jade items from a personal collection?
Obviously you are not Buddhist, as the commonest representation of Guan Yin is the goddess holding a whisk.
You should read more about your people's ancestry before writing reviews with stupid, derogatory statements, completely unfounded. About your remark of the publisher, do you know that libel is a crime?"

Wow it truly shows the real color of this book author and I now understand why Diasai so totally despised this author and I concur.

B

I conclude the quiz with thanks to all the participants that responded in an academic fashion and special thanks to Ernest Wilhelm who was the first to answer correctly to the quiz. This thread is now closed, concluding the communication from my end.
Dr. Mircea Veleanu

Have to admit you're right Bill...can't possibly be...

Hi, Pipane:

Thanks. Same here, I have to admit some of the Hongshan jades listed in your site may indeed be genuine, albeit reluctantly. I also applaude your effort in catching up with Hongshan especially with jade books written by such Hongshan gurus as Guo DaShun and Sun ShouDao. Bravo!

B

Thanks you Bill, but...

"some of the Hongshan jades listed in your site may indeed be genuine"

But..that's a bit short for somebody who has continuously criticized me and those jades for some time on many forum, doing this out of all true expertise criteria (at that time you were much less advanced in you study of archaic jades) or even common sense (and I pass on the personal attacks).

I just defy you to find me one fake item in general on my website and one fake Hongshan jade in particularly.

Up to you to explain why it should according to you be fake, how (if you can) it would have been made, out of what material, eventually when, and all this with as much solid reference to back your point as you can. You're also welcome to ask assistance from any expert you wish...

Pipane



URL Title :Pipane Asian Art Gallery

I saw this piece on your web site and would appreciate some clarification on the manner in which it is advertised. It is listed as "Translucent Yellow Sonorous Jade Used As Musical Instrument - Ancient Lapidary Artist", and again confirmed as, "Artist: Ancient Lapidary Artist". The ad further states: "This original sculpture is currently for sale", and to "Please contact the artist directly to inquire about purchasing this original".
If this piece is truly the work of an "Ancient Artist", and was collected by Marvin George between 1907-1909, what would be the best way to contact the artist? He must certainly be quite old by now, and I expect there could be a language problem, but may it be worth the effort.
Is it possibe to contact the "Ancient Artists" of some of your other advertised pieces? If so, a confirmation of a piece from "the "Ancient Artist" would be a wonderful provenance for one's collection.
Roger

Hi, Roger:

Good catch. How funny. Thanks.

Bill

agree with Roger... from what I saw all jade are recent copies...price are high or would be really cheap The book cover exhibits large recent copies that can be found on many post in Chicochai forum.

You mentioned the surface stain goes away? ...curious... to say the least...

I happened on to this website after doing a search on Anthony M. Lee, who impressed me over 15 years ago with his knowledge and insights in Asian Art. I have been a collector of Pre Columbian and Chinese jade for over 40 years. I'd like to offer the following suggestion to new and inexperienced collectors: read, study, even memorize the material in James Watt's books, especially for the "Han to Ching" periods. Do the same with Jessica Rawson for archaic jades. Know the work of Yang Boda, whom I had the privilege of showing pictures from my jade collection in 1987 when he was curator of art at the Gugong in Beijing, but relatively unknown in the West. Study all of the pictures in publications on jade by the Min Chieu Society in Hong Kong, who count among their illustrious collectors the likes of Sir Joseph Hotung, who formed his collection (now in the Hotung wing of the British Museum) under the guidance of Robert Ellsworth and Jessica Rawson. And yes, the founder of this forum, Anthony Lee.

I once asked James Watt which reference books written prior to the 70s he recommended, and he replied, "none." I would make Howard Hansford the exception, as time has proven he was right most of the time, from Shang forward, at a time when The National Palace Museum afforded him the only contact with Chinese scholars who had access to the great wealth of jade taken from China by Chang Kai Chek. Laufer, given as a source of corroboration by Veleanu is the opposite: his work has been largely discredited, and that may explain some of Veleau's misrepresentations.

I commend Bill, Roger, and Randy! They were impressively on target in regard to M. Veleanu, especially Roger. I prefer to think that he/she(?) has been driven by ignorance and hubris, rather than blatant misrepresentation and larceny. The largest percentage of the jade published in her self-promoting and misinformed book were to be found in the Hong Kong jade market for years before China opened and a greater expertise for reproductions and access to Hotien nephrite came about. The brownish (probably bowenite or serpentine) chime piece she sought unsuccessfully to gain support for being Shang, is especially unconvincing. Randy had it right that jade which was selected for its sonorous quality was particularly pure as the freedom from inclusions, the mineralogical homogeneity, allowed the unmistakable clear tone that along with tactile and visual appeal made jade the substance of the senses. High value dictated that the stone not be cut any thicker than absolutely necessary for tonal quality, and, again, mineralogical purity meant cellular cohesion that allowed thinner cuts. Chimes in the carpenters square shape of her jade piece are best known, if memory serves me, in ritual pieces in bronze, along with the large studded bells. The only jade pieces of that shape I can remember without research are much later pieces in Lake Baikal type spinach green jade with gilt filled inscriptions.

Veleanu is correct, however, when she writes that jade from time to time was treated alchemically and ritually with cinnabar and mercury, the apparent transubstantiation from liquid to solid must have fascinated and stimulated their belief in the physical transformation of Shamans and ghosts just as the long incubation and "resurrection" of the cicada represented rebirth.

Veleanu's pieces, however, look more like the "fritters" researched by Hansford, who described their surface alteration as being due to heat (to disaggregate the surface crystals as stated by Randy) and subsequent contamination with dark oily substances, sometimes even mercury, which left a black, irregular, superficial saturation unlike the much deeper penetration of true burial pieces. And I wonder if she tested her chime for hardness as if appears like so many pieces of softer, jade imitates. Granted, a truly degraded surface will not pass the scratch test, but a pointed steel probe in an inconspicuous place, such as edge, will find a hardness level below the surface of nephrite, while with bowenite and serpentine, it will probe deeper and deeper.

Veleanu perpetuates the false "driftwood" concept that archaic jade must appear defaced or "weathered" by age. When I first started collecting Pre Columbian jadeite, I was amazed to find that the finest pieces carved in "emerald green" (Museum of Natural History, NY, and Mexico City; Dumbarton Oaks Museum, Washington) very often had the luster and polish that appeared as if it had just been done, even though they often were found in the earth, where they had been sacrificed to the gods of fertility and harvest. And even though nephrite is slightly softer and doesn't take a glossy polish like jadeite, I was equally surprised to see pieces, especially white and light celadon ones, that looked equally as pristine from dry tombs in China when I went there in 1986-87. Bob Frey, who founded "Friends of Jade" along with Robert Dean, incidentally, paid me a visit at the Central Academy of Fine Art at that time, and he had the opportunity to see some of these pieces as well.

In conclusion, Veleanu's chime, like most of the pieces she offers for sale on the internet (Go Antiques, I think) are unlike any authentic pieces I've seen in museums, reputable publications, or personal experience. Novice collectors beware.

Jon:

Bravo! What an educational message you have posted here.

Are you sure Mircea is a "she" and not a "he"? because it can be the name of either male or female. Do you know that for sure? Thanks.

Just imagine one time MV had offered to teach me about jade in exchange for the time I had spent in researching his/her oil paintings. I guess I was really "lucked" out, otherwise now I would be the proud owner of many "archaic jades" similar to those posted in his/her jade books.

The funny part is how can a jade book writer and self-proclaimed jade expert can be so ignorant and so lazy in not even doing the basic researches in jade topics he is talking about.

He said there were no nephrite jade found or mined in Taiwan or California when I had samples of both in my collection. He claimed there were no archaic Chinese jade carvings that were made of Hetian jade while many jade experts such as Gu Fang said otherwise. It does not take long for one to smell a phony. No wonder when I requested him to send me a free copy of his jade book, he told me I had to buy one myself because he would not give away free book. Luckily I had spent my money in purchasing books written by both S. Howard Hansford and Boda Yang instead of buying his worthless book.

Mr. Boda Yang is probably one of the most respectable jade experts in China. Some of his best works can be found in the www.paragonbook.com and they are must reads for jade collectors.

I found you paragraph regarding "Veleanu perpetuates the false "driftwood" concept that archaic jade must appear defaced or "weathered" by age" of special interest because many Hongshan jade collectors including some in Chicochai also believe all authentic Hongshan jades and archaic jades must have severe weathered surfaces.

Your statement confirmed what I have been saying all along about authentic Hongshan jades:

"When I first started collecting Pre Columbian jadeite, I was amazed to find that the finest pieces carved in "emerald green" (Museum of Natural History, NY, and Mexico City; Dumbarton Oaks Museum, Washington) very often had the luster and polish that appeared as if it had just been done, even though they often were found in the earth, where they had been sacrificed to the gods of fertility and harvest. And even though nephrite is slightly softer and doesn't take a glossy polish like jadeite, I was equally surprised to see pieces, especially white and light celadon ones, that looked equally as pristine from dry tombs in China when I went there in 1986-87."

Many authentic Hongshan jades look like pristine new jade carvings after cleaning with mild soap and water only.

Many jade collectors still believe such jades are modern fakes and the luster found on them are the results of harsh cleaning, waxing or repolishing.

I applaud your profound understanding of jade and I would like to invite you to join the Chicochai jade forum. Recently, we have success in attracting a lot of very serious and knowledgeable jade collectors in joining us. We would be thrilled to have you there so we may share our love in jade. Thanks.

Bill

Dear All,

I feel that we are here to study Asian art, and we should limit our discussions on art and not on any one's personality or business practice!

I don't agree with the V-shape jade Qing's dating as a Shang item, but I believe that this item is old, and possibly around Han or post Han. The material should be light green nephrite that the hardness should be above 5.5 in the hardness scale.

I am attaching a jpg that shows a Shang jade Fu-axe from the Bahr's Collection. The Shang Fu-axe shows some color that resembles Mircea's jade Qing. The Shang Fu-axe was sold at $122,550 at Christie's March 2009 Auction.

I have a few I think is Hongshan artifacts anyone can identify if they are authentic though it is difficult to do it with pics. Thanks

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