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Hello to All, Can anyone ID these items I aquired recently from a Junk sale.Regards Paul

Paul, they're apparently Japanese, in view of the transfer "flow blue" arabesque (karakusa) motif. It may be that they aren't cups but cup stands (hai dai) that originally came with a set of tea wares. Perhaps others can help sort this out, as well as the date of manufacture, which I'd guess as post-Occupation (after 1954).
Regards,
Bill H.

Hi Bill,Thanks for replying and your opinion,someone suggested they could be sake cups around 1900, did they do this type of printing then or was it all hand painted at that time? regards. Paul

Hi Paul,

These pieces probably are transfer-decorated. Japan's ceramics industry had acquired transfer-printing technology around the beginning of the 19th century, not long after it was invented in England. The Japanese call this technique "In Ban," and it has become as much of an art form to them as "Flow Blue" has for the British.

The presence of transfer printing sometimes can be a useful clue in differentiating between Japanese and Chinese antique ceramics. In China, with its larger labor pool, it was more cost-effective to train artisans to hand-paint ceramics, so transfer decoration wasn't adopted on a commercial scale there until several decades into the 20th century. Just beware those clever old Staffordshire, Meissen and Limoges "Chinoiserie" transfer patterns that often are mistaken for Japanese and Chinese.

Regards,

Bill H.

Hello Paul and Bill,

It's a pity you didn't post some bigger size pictures and mentioned the size of these "stem(med) cups/bowls". I agree with Bill that it gives a Japanese feeling. I can't see for sure it is transfer-ware, but you don't disagree so Bill must be right about that. If they are Japanese indeed I guess they are big (12/14 cm or higher) and then I would call them "sake cup washers". (maybe thats the same as Bill meant). The only problem I have with that is that the examples I have seen all have a heavy feet and yours don't. This could mean that your's aren't meant to use but have a more decorative function and are from later periode as Bill all ready wrote.

Maybe you can post the dimensions?

In Japan they started to use transferprinting in 19th. century so 1900 would (in theory) be possible.

best regards,

Arjan

Hi Bill H. and Arjan,thanks again for replying and your comments,the sizes of these cups?? are quite small only 6cm dia, and 6.2cm in height the bases are4.4cm dia.I would say they are definately a printed design,rather than hand painted. You can see where the design does not meet square on with the rest of it. Interestingly enough I came by an eggcup with similar designs and colour ( size is 4cm by 4.5 dia the height being 5.8 cm.)slightly ovoid probably due to firing rather than design with the same type of base to it, at the same venue but a different time, I imagine these items must be fairly common,Unfortunately I cannot show photos of this at the moment due to a problem with camera but I will as soon as.regards to you both Paul.

Hi Bill H and Arjan, Here are the pics to go with the previous text.Paul

More of same

Hi Paul & Arjan,

Those dimensions could fit a wine cup or the cup stand (haidai) I had in mind, but the average cup washer (haisen) would indeed be much larger. I've Googled around the web for examples of the pedestal-type cup stand I recall seeing as part of a Japanese tea set, but to no avail. No use speculating, because if they look like pedestal cups, and hold tea or sake like pedestal cups, then we might as well drink from them like pedestal cups! Right? :)

For what it's worth, here's my only example of a Japanese cup stand that has a pedestal base. However, this one has a flat top that's decorated trompe l'oeil style as a stargazer lily. It's about three inches tall and the same in diameter. The mark is that of Meiji master potter Makuzu Kozan. This stand would have accommodated cups in the same pattern with foot rims wide enough to overlap its center lip, which provides stability.

Regards,

Bill H.

Hi Paul and Bill,

Well.... that size explanes the light foot but gives (to me) an other "problem" . I think (knowing the size now) we can call this "Stemcups" but..... such stemcups are typical Chinese and (as far as I now) not Japanese. Maybe Bill can shine some light?

regards,

Arjan

Hi Arjan,

In my opinion, keeping in mind how my focus primarily is on Chinese porcelains, the decoration looks convincingly Japanese on the stemcups, which have a typical "karakusa" (arabesque) design with a heaviness not usually employed by Chinese designers in their motifs.

It also applies to my thinking that the Chinese kilns didn't use transfer-decoration on a commercial scale until around the decade of the 1930's, at which time they were on the eve of World War II and not making a lot porcelain of the quality of these stemcups.

By the same token, I'm not sure it would have been politically correct for Chinese porcelain factories to copy Japanese designs like this right after the War, when I think these cups probably were made (circa the 3rd quarter, 20th century), at which time there was still quite a bit of anti-Japanese sentiment in China and elsewhere.

I wouldn't object to having this rationale nit-picked at all.

Regards,

Bill H.

The cups appear to be "buppanki" - offering cups for a Buddhist home altar.They are available in most Buddhist supply stores and traditional Japanese stores.

Hello to All,Thanks Roger for your imput with the "Buppanki" cups it seems likely that is what they could be,albeit somewhat older than the ones you show,could you show the bases of the ones you have shown to compare with mine?. Bill I love the Makuzu Kozan cup stand you have,it is a work of art, anything by this potter I find to be of great beauty. As regarding my stemcups I would certainly try some tea out of them.Arjan, I will go along with Bill and Roger that they are likely to be Japanese , the eggcup I have put up has the same base as the cups and looking at the design with the Japanese women and Fuijisan in the background it does seem like a clincher that the cups are also from Japan.I tend to feel that these could be somewhat older than has been suggested, but then again I am no expert, thanks again for all your opinions.Paul

Hi all,

After the posting of Paul I go with you as well. My first feeling was also Japanese but my problem was that I didn't have seen Japanese examples of (these kind) of stemcups before. Paul showed that they do excist so no reason to doubt about that anymore.

Just for fun I enclose a Chinese (shallow) example of my collection.

regards,

Arjan

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