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I bought this old jade bangle at antique show last weekend. It looks like an old jade with blood color on half of the bangle. I wonder if it is from an ancient tomb. The jade bangle looks slim with high relief of some unknown square character symbols in two opposite sections, but in another two opposite sections, I can only recognize two little dragons, but one head looks like a fish with one eye, the other one has a head with two eyes which look like the little dragon on the dragon dagger as shown the other day. This bangle looks like a girl's bangle as the high relief is so delicate. The bangle doesn't look transparent, but I can see one tiny dark dot in the jade. The color looks like cooked potato color, but after taking pix in the light, they all look transparent and oily. Today I took some pix in the natural light outside, they don't show much transparent, but show superb carving skill of high relief. I will post pix from time to time as it is limited to post three pix each time.
Bangle size:
Inner Diameter: 55mm or 2 3/8"
Outer diameter: 80mm or 3 1/8"
round thickness is about 10mm or about 3/8"

Your opinions of the age and culture on this jade bangle is highly appreciated.
By the way, I also bought a jade hairpin handle from the same dealer. He has two or three pieces of ancient jade objects, one kitten looks like Hongshan jade, I didn't buy as the carving is not clear. He told me the jade pieces came from a curator of a museum. After death, his Chinese collection was auctioned, they turned to be scholarship. This is what I heard from him.

Best regards,
May

Dear friends,

I'm a new member. Thank you very much for your knowledge and taking time to reply my questions about metal/jade dragon dagger.

I did some research and look at the bangle again. I realized there are three dragons in three sections, the section across the bangle show 4 square symbol.Is it possible 4 stars or balls o pearls? By the way, there are some rice color dioxide in the lines, especially around the 4 square symbols. I used Q tip to clean it, but it seems not so easy to clean in the corners.

The dragon with scales between two little dragons is an old dragon. One little dragon has a fish head side look with one eye looking back, the other little one has a head with two eyes looking back. The high relief exquisite carving make the little ones look so cute and vivid. In China, there is a motif "Father teaches children" 教子图 and another motif "Father watches children, holding hope for children"望子成龙, all wish children success in the future. I guess this motif is applied to this bangle. I'm not quite sure if my understanding of the motif on this piece is right. Your different knowledge and opinions are highly valued.

The bangle feels very comfortable all around and cold like ice. When I wear it yesterday with cold air blowing towards the bracelet, I felt so cold that I have to turn off AC while driving.

I'm sorry, my camera doesn't show delicate carving skill very well, I may try to take smaller pic, it may turn to be very clear.
Actually the color looks like cooked water chestnut as the color of cooked potato I expressed yesterday may vary. I try to express the color very well. The old dragon with scale looks brownish as it was stained by blood when it was worn under waist. Is it possible it is an object excavated from an old tomb? Is the bangle made of northern Chinese Xiu jade 岫玉 or Xingjiang Hetian jade? Age of the bangle?

Once again, I appreciate it for your help. It's a nice place for me to get educated and learn a lot from experts, collectors and friends.

Best regards,
May

Hi, May:

Do not look like jade at all. There is no luster on it. Never believe stories told by dealer. No knowledgeable jade dealer will give any good jades away. If you paid too much for it, I advise you return it for a refund.

Bill

I bought from a dealer at Overland Park Show, unfortunately I didn't ask him for contact info. I guess it is a lesson for me as a new collector of jade objects. However, I didn't pay too much, but I learned a lot from you. By the way, yesterday I won a bid on jade Kwanyin figure, but I canceled the transaction immediately after I made payment because I realized the receiver of my payment is Chinese name, and shows non-US. The seller's location is in America, but I don't trust those Chinese suppliers who sell on Ebay through American dealers. If it is an authentic jade, they could have made good profit out of this as far as I know China jade market is very hot in recent years.
Thank you, Bill and Anita,
May

Dear May

It's modern, and may be not true jade. Possibly a dyed and sand blown Peking glass, the lustre is not right.

Hardness test with iron it will pass, Peking glass is harder than iron, air bubbles is hard to find in the piece because modern forgery can inject melted glass into the mold and compress to release the air out.

Buy a hanging scale to perform SG test.

Have fun
Anita

Dear Anita,
It's very nice of you to share your knowledge with me. What's meaning of SG test?
Thank you and best regards,
May

Dear May

After careful observation at additonal pictures you emailed me, I would say that it is possibly not a mutton fat white nephrite, it would be semi-translucent opaque white nephrite.

It is definately a soft glow true jade by looking at the light shining through the "C" scroll high motifs, but it is a modern craftsmanship, and possibly artificial stained to immitate russet skin.

Have fun
Anita

I still have some doubts about this bangle.
I compared this bangle with my Burma jade bangle I bought in Yuannan Jade Store 15 years ago. It feels very cold and similar sound when I use a string to hold them and use one jade bangle to hit another. It seems this bangle's sound is almost as high and clear as the Burma jade bangle. I scratched a bit of jade on the smooth inner circumference of the bangle with a sharp knife. Some powder came off, but after removing it, the jade still feels smooth without leaving any dent or mark on it. It appears to me it is not made of glass, is it possible it is made of a soft semi transparent jade? Of course, I will do SG test. For the moment, I just compare the weight of two jade bangle, they feel similar heavy. Now I post another picture under light. I don't know if it shows better, but its color is quite similar to the real color of this bangle. As you know pix can vary for some reason.

Thanks,
May

May:

Go ahead and do a S.G. test before your curiosity drives you crazy.

Any stone carvings will feel cold and can make "metallic sound", that won't confirm anything.
The way you describes the result of your scratch test sounds very puzzling to me. You do not need to scrape it, but just a tiny scratch with a needle or the tip of a pocket knife will suffice. If you can scratch it and leave a white line, then it does not pass the scratch test, if no line appears of if a dark metallic line appears on it, it can be residue from the metal used to scratch the piece, then it passes the scratch test.

There is a 50% possibility that your jade bangle bracelet could be made of nephrite, based on your new picture, just like Anita said. I have seen nephrite in this color and translucency before.

There is also a 50% possibility it is not jade, but made of either hard quartz or some types of softer stone. Without accurate hardness and S.G. tests, we can guess all day long without knowing for sure.

The chance of it being made of Burma jadeite, based on your pictures, in my humble opinion, is almost nil.

Hope this will help.

Bill

Thank you for your info on S.G. test given by Anita, but I don't know how to perform this test.
What kind of tools do I need to buy for S.G. test?

Thanks,
May

I am a little puzzled...

How can you say anything about this jade piece from such bad pictures Anita?

???

Rgds,

Pipane

Dear Pipane

I first observed its "metalic luster", and thing in the market which I walk pass jade market "everday" to the carpark..

Dear May

About SG test, pls read:-

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=35744

And google the keyword " Specific Gravity+nephrite"

Have fun
Anita

Metallic luster? I have to agree with Pipane in that how in the world can any one of us including Anita will be able to tell if a piece of jade carving, especially those that are white and celadon in color, based solely on their pictures alone, even if taken in high definition, albeit in this case really badly focused one?

I have looked through thousands of digital pictures of jade carvings that are white and celadon in color, only found that they can be displayed in different colors in different models of computer monitors. A celadon jade carving listed by one of the jade dealers I wholly trust was displayed as greyish-white in my monitor only found to be a better looking celadon color when I received it. When I told the dealer he first thought I was complaining but I told him I was geuinely surprised because it looked better in real life than in its picture.

Recently, there are a few eBay dealers (two in U.S. and one in China) who are selling some pretty nice looking white and celadon nephrite jade carvings with very low minimum bids. One even guranteed that all her jade carvings were made of genuine nephrite, yet she did not know anything about jade because she obtained all of them directly from China and somebody apparently prepared all the listings and pictuers of the jade carvings for her before she listed them. I had yet been able to win a piece for me to study because most of them were sold between $ 120 - $ 300 a piece and I did not want to risk so much to buy a piece of junk that I had to return. From their pictures, a few did look like that they might be made of nephrite jade, albeit not Hetian jade, yet there were just no way they could be that of 19th century. White jade carvings listed by one dealer in China did not look like jade at all because they had no luster. I checked with the dealer I trust and he told me he did win a few pieces from these 3 dealers but he had to return them because they were not nephrite jade but were made of Chalcedony (a type of quartz). He also said they not that old.

I do not believe it is either cheap or easy to buy any white or celadon jade carvings that are both made of good nephrite jade and with good carving quality. It has become difficult to find any nice Qing dynasty jade carvings that were made of white Hetian or mutton-fat jade. For that of Song or Ming dynasty, unless you have a deep pocket and is willing to spend some money. This is what I was told by the dealer whom I trust and I agree with him.

The picture posted by Anita for May's bangle looks almost light green to me, more like agate or Xiyun jade (serpentine). Of course, that is a possibility it can be made of nephrite jade. However, just like jade bowl, it is not easy to find nice jade bangles that were made of real nephrite jade (a lot of waste in making them). A scratch test cannot tell for sure, a S.G. test will be required. But if I have to bet my money on it, I would say it is not made of nephrite.

I do not believe May should distrust any jade dealers just because they are Chinese or they get their jades from China because many of these jade carvings did come from China. The problem is that there is no free lunch, you have to pay good money for good jades. However, paying top money does not guarantee good jades. I had a lady wrote me not too long ago and told me her horror stories in purchasing some imperial green "jadeite" buddhist beads for thousands of dollars from a jade expert/dealer/book writer who had previously posted in this forum, only to find that they were made of inferior dyed quarzite. She is now trying to recover her money.

Buying jades is a very very risky business and not for people with faint heart. It is better to buy the books before one will spend more money in buying the jades no matter how good the stories the dealer will tell you about them. I learned it the hard way myself.

Bill

This is article is really a good reminder to me. Bill and Anita's knowledge and advice is so helpful to me, especially a new collector. I think I'd rather spend much more time in reading related books before starting to buy antique jade carving than more dollars on the fake jade. As a beginner,I'm still lucky to have opportunities to learn about jade from experienced collectors or experts through Asian Art Forum.

May:

I can surely share your love in jade because I called myself jade craze and yet I believe Anita is even crazier than me in that she lives in jade and breathes in jade. I believe she will skip her next meal and spend her last penny on jade if she sees a jade piece she truly falls in love with. She and Mike had been going jade hunting all over Hong Kong and China.

The only sad part with many experienced jade collectors or jade experts, in my opinion, is that once they have come to the conclusion that they are good with jade they will become overconfident with their own expertise and believe they will be able to judge the quality of a jade piece based solely on its digital pictures. They will also have very low tolerance for other people's opinions on any jade carvings because they believe they are infallible. The "real expert" is the one who would be very humble and hesitated in attributing any jade carvings with pictures alone, no matter how high-definition they may be. The dealer whom I trust said it was hard enough for him to attribute a jade carving in person he would not even attempt to attribute any with pictures alone.
This is a person who has published many jade articles and appraised many expensive and large jade collections including those that are owned by museums.

Therefore, it is very possible if some of us in this forum will be able to examine your jade bangle bracelet in real life, we may change our opinions on it. Once a jade friend posted a Shang dynasty green nephrite dear on the other jade forum, most other members including myself did not believe it was archaic because its material looked bad. After he received the piece, he took and posted some better pictures and all of a sudden I could see how nice the material and quality of the piece was. Those members who were in doubt before(including myself) changed our opinion on it from negative to favorable.

To me sometimes it is almost easy to tell if a piece of jade is "old" or "new". You just feel the surface of the jade carving with you finger tips. The older and better the jade pieces, the longer they will spend time in polishing it. During the Qing emperor Qianlong era, before high-hardness grit polishing is discovered, it could take more than one year's time in polishing a jade bowl. If you can feel its surface "silky smooth", then it is almost definitely it will be an older piece. On the other hand, modern jade carving was polished with high-hardness grit (such as diamond or corundum grit) with high-speed electrical polishing tools. They will feel sticky. However, this may not always be true especially with jadeite carving that had been worn for a while.

Another very difficult thing to achieve is the "luster" of a jade carving and I do mean "luster" that look likes "gem luster". The degree and quality of luster found on a jade carving depend on two major things: the quality of its jade material and the polishing skills and time employed in polishing the piece. Many jade collectors still believe waxing, vaseline or polishing can improve the luster of a jade carving including modern jade carvings. The truth is no amount of waxing or polishing can improve the luster of any jade carvings no matter how much wax or vaseline you pile on the piece or how long you would bluff it. The reason some of the authentic Hongshan jade carvings have such superb luster is because animal pelt with animal grease was being used to polish them for many many years after the initial polishing with quartz grits (jade polishing sand).

On this nice late Qing dynasty archer's ring I posted in this forum:

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=34073

Its luster is satin like and when I touch it with my finger tips, it feels so silky smooth. It is almost a joy to play with it. Interestingly, almost many of these older archer's rings are made in almost exact size, much smaller than the fake ones.

Once you can touch and see this ring, you have no doubt that it is a nice jade ring and how it is different than the modern jade rings.

I had recently purchased a supposedly rare Hongshan jade bird (see pictures). It appears almost white on its picture but its actual color is a little bit more celadon (very light green). Normally I would not touch any jade carvings in this color, because it would be either be made in white quartz, some soft white stone or some celadon serpentine. In this case, I like its carving lines, its polishing and the fact that the dealer (he is in China) seems to know about jade. He told me it was made of nephrite jade. Since I already bought another piece from him, therefore he would not charge me postage for this second piece.

Its size is 1.8"H x 1.7"W x 0.4" T and its weight is 30.2 gram.

I decided to take a gamble since it is not that expensive and because I wanted to examine its carving lines closely to see if I can detect the unique Hongshan carving techniques employed in making these lines.

When I received it, its S.G. is 2.91 and its hardness is about 6.5 It was made of very good nephrite jade that is hard to find today.

Unfortunately, just like its picture shown, there is no luster on its surface although the polishing is very nice. Comparing with my other Hongshan jade bird (which I believe is real), it feels "sticky" upon feeling it with my fingertip. It is very translucent but the celadon color is just not as vivid as that of my other bird. The other bird is a bright vivid celdon while this one is very dull green. I also cannot detect the unique Hongshan carving technique on its carving lines and the thing that tells me that it is a modern piece is the edges of its two holes on its rear are sharp, that means that they were either made with metal carving tools or somebody did not even take the time in polishing off the sharp edges. In short, this jade bird is probably modern in the sense that it is less than 100 years old, however I cannot really detect any modern tool marks on it and therefore it could be made prior to the 60s. For the price I paid or it and its nice quality nephrite jade, I was content to have it as a study piece.

Feel the surface of any future jade carving you may want to buy (if you can), if its surface feel sticky or you feel any rough or sharp edges anywhere, then it is almost likely that it is modern. Buy yourself a 10x loupe, or a 15x loupe that was made in Japan or Belgium or Sweden or Germany, examine its carving lines, many modern tool marks were left by high speed electrical carving tools and you will see these long straight lines inside the carving lines that are parallel to each other. E-mail Anita and she may send you pictures of these modern carvings lines she took on a jade puzzle ball.

When you look at the picture of a jade carving, always look for the luster, avoid those "glassy luster" made by high-speed polishing. Buy a cheap piece of jadeite carving from Gojade on eBay and you can tell how the "glassy luster" of jadeite achieved by high speed polishing should look like. Many beautiful jade carvings have very beautiful and natural luster that could only be achieved by manual and painstaking polishing.

Go to www.paragonbook.com and see if you can find some good jade books. I post a jade book reference on another link in this forum (about jade bowl)which is a good jade reference for the money.

Happy jade hunting!

Bill

Dear Bill,
The bangle I acquired is not expensive, but at least it is still worth to have it with nice carvings for that money. Besides, I really learn a lot from friends here through this bangle. I really appreciated it very much for your sharing so much info on jade hunting.
Best regards,
May

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