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Hi all, I have recently acquired a pair of jade bowls from an estate sale. To my eyes, the jade looks old, but I am no expert. I have posted the only picture I took right now, for some evaluation.

Can you please share your opinions on the age of the jade?

Also, I am starting to collect Chinese jade bowls, mostly from the 19th century. Does anyone know of any resources for jade bowls specifically? I searched my library of ancient artifacts and what jade books I have. There are no books specifically on bowls, is this false?

Thanks so much, and I am excited to here your responses! I think I got a really good deal!

Of course it would have been a good deal if it would have been Jade. The fact is that these bowls are made of Serpentine. Better go slow on collecting, don't be in a hurry..and try to buy Jade, not stories.
Ernest

Okay, thanks for the information. However, can't serpentine be old, or is it modern? I don't really care if it's jade, I had a guess as to serpentine, but I am looking for bowls- jade, hardstone, serpentine. I would prefer jade, but these bowls are beautiful anyway. Thanks!

Of course serpentine can be old. There is actually no evidence that nephrite jade was ever being mined inside China although we believe at one time nephrite mined locally were being used in the carving of both Liangzhu and Hongshan jades. Unfortunately, those nephrite sources are all now extinct and their existence cannot be proved with certainty.

Most nephrite jade used in making Chinese jade carvings were imported from Khotan, XinJiang, China or from the vicinty of Kunlun Mountain such as Qinghai. I know a few forum members would not agree with this. However, I simply based this conclusion from opinions of top jade experts in both China and the west.

Therefore, hetian jades were known to be used to make archaic jade carvings in China. There are other two known jade material that were also being used in the making of archaic jade carvings in China and they are: Xiuyan jade (or Xiu Yu) which is predominately serpentine and Dushan jade which is supposedly to be a type of feldspar (its hardness is 6.5-7 and its SG ranges from 2.5-3.0). However, the type of Xiuyan jade that were used in ancient China was quite differnt than the modern one. The older Xiuyan jade cannot be scratched, some have the dark green color of nephrite and one may mistaken it as nephrite until a S.G. test can be performed on them. Some are found in the making of Hongshan jade carvings with yellowish and light brown colors and was called as "Bowenite" by some jade collectors. Some Xiuyan jade is a mixture of both nephrite and serpentine. The modern Xiuyan jade is mostly light green and can be scratched. Their colors can be very similar to some celadon nephrite jade and therefore is very difficult to distinguish them from celadon nephrite jade based on digital pictures alone. Only a scratch test can tell the difference. Therefore, if you will perform a scratch test (with a needle) at the bottom of your bowls, you will be able to tell if they were made of serpentine or nephrite. There are some Xiuyan jades that were high quality tremolite (nephrite) that were used in making authentic Hongshan jade. The quality of them is so superb that one will not mistaken them with any other inferior jade material. They will have a S.G. close to or exceeds 3.00 and a hardness approaching 7.0 While it is true that in general jadeite will have a hardness of 7.0 and nephrite has a hardness of about 6.0 and therefore nephrite was known as "soft jade" in China. However, that was not always true because at one time, nice nephrite jade carvings owned by royals and nobles in China actually have hardness equal to or exceed that of jadeite. I also found it is not true that all jadeite will have a hardness of 7, some will actually have hardness around 6 - 6.5

I have seen similar jade bowls like yours for sales on eBay between $5 to $20. There used to be a lot of them but lately I have not seen too many.

As long as you enjoy your bowls, there will not be anything wrong with it. However, until you see those jade bowls listed on those jade books I have recommended, then you may change your mind and really want to own a nice and genuine nephrite jade bowl. At one time I had an opportunity to obtain one (made in the 20s) for less than $200 but I missed the opportunity. A perfect nephrite jade bowl is something not easy to obtain due to the amount of material and the difficulty in making them.

Good luck.

Bill

Possibly made of onyx or fluorite, not jade, not old.

Have fun
Anita

It is both very difficult and expensive to find jade bowls that were made of genuine nephrite jade. A small bowl made of genuine nephrite jade made in the last fifty years will cost you in the vicinity of US$ 300 - 750, if you are lucky.

Most jade bowls found and made these days were not made of real jade and I believe that would include your two bowls. The color and the quality of the material used to make your two bowls, I regret to say, is simply not very eye appealing and even in the rare chance that it was made of nephrite, they are just too inferior. I believe they were both made of serpentine, just like Ernest said. The stands holding the two bowls actually are quite nice. If they are the original wooden stands came with the bowls, then your bowls could be 20+ years old.

Jade bowls made in the 19th century (that will be Qing dynasty) will not be cheap and the likelihood you will find them in estate sales, eBay, jade stores, internet will not be good.

Jade bowls that were made during the Qing Emperor QianLong era will be worth a fortune. (and I meant a fortune!!!)

In the volume 2 of these 3 jade books:

http://www.paragonbook.com/html/browsesubj/fullcitation.cfm?item=30912

中国玉器全集 (3 Volumes)
Zhongguo Yuqi Quanji (3 Volumes)
Jade Treasures from China (3 Volumes)
杨伯达
Yang, Boda
6.25 x 8.5", 948 pp., fully illustrated in color, text in Chinese, paper, Hebei, 2005.
# Volume 1: Neolithic, Winter-Autumn, Warring States
# Volume 2: Qin Dynasty, Han Dynasty, Ming Dynasty, Qing Dynasty
# Volume 3: Eassys

from p.531-p.640 Qing Dynasty you will see picture of many very nice jade bowls. Just one look at the beautiful Hetian nephrite jade and beautiful workmanship employed in making them, comparing with modern jade bowls like these two that were posted here, you will understand what I try to say. Please beware that these 3 book are written in Chinese, but pictures alone (first two volumes) will be worth the purchase price of $ 49.95. It is good to buy jade books first before you spend any more hard earned money. Good luck.

Bill

Thanks all for the great info. I have a few jade books, but none that are really very good. I just got a new one, "Antique Jade" by Oscar-Luzzato-Bilitz which I'll check out tonight. These bowls were only $15, so I thought I'd buy them, and if they were more modern pieces (which they appear to be) then oh well, I have a set to compare other pieces to.


I am also thinking of purchasing this pair in a few days, these are actually jade (spinach jade that is). Any opinions on them? I mostly mean age when I ask.

--And thanks Bill for posting those books!! I love paragon, and I think I will order them.

Thanks again all!

Dear Lux

"these are actually jade (spinach jade that is)."

Who told you these bowls are spinach green jade?

Pls google spinach jade, and see the difference.

They are not true jade, I have never seen jade have matrix like that, they are possibly glass and/or dyed quartzite.

Have fun
Anita

Sorry, I do not see Spinach Jade, but Serpentine !!
Ernest

Hi all, thanks again for the responses. These are actually at an auction in Chicago in a few days. They are similar to spinach jade I have seen, but I am quite plainly no expert. You all are right- I will invest my money more in books than actual pieces, especially since these have a much higher price tag. The book I bought by Luzzatto is actually fairly good- very interesting. I am awaiting another by Palmer, and am about to order the books Bill recommended from Paragon. For now I'll just read the Chi. forums archives and see what I can learn. Thanks again!

-Lux

Hi, Lux:

That is great, that is, to spend money in buying some jade books before you would buy more jades.

These are four good jade books for your consideration:

"Chinese Jade - from the Neolithic to the Qing" by Jessica Rawson

I bought the paper back from Paragon for about $30 when it came on sale.

"Chinese Jade throughout the Ages" by Stanley Charles Nott

You should find this book on eBay and other sites for about $15-20. Make sure it has its original dust jacket and box. Some dealers sell it as high as $60. A few of his other books are collector's items and are very expensive.

Two books written by Professor S. Howard Hansford:

1. Chinese Carved Jades
2. Chinese Jade Carving

Professor Hansford is probably one of the most respected jade scholar in the west. One time when I wrote about him in this forum, his grandson (paternal) in England wrote me in an attempt to find out more about him.

His jade books are collector's items and can be very expensive but if you are patient enough you can find a copy of each book for around $20-30 (without dust jacket). One book is harder to find than the other.
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Just found this Honan jade bowl on eBay:

120451780749

4 inches diameter for $ 5 with a stand is simply not bad.

Of course it is not jade.
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I found this link:

http://molly.kalafut.org/jade/fake.html

This is what it says about jade in general and about Honan Jade:

Fake Jades Jade Collecting Avoiding Fakes
Identifying Fake Jades
Description & eBay Examples
By Molly Kalafut

June 2009: Update - I've received a lot of wonderful feedback, including helpful constructive information, from viewers of this webpage, and I extend my appreciation to all of you. When I have time I hope to update this page with the information I've received, but it probably won't be anytime soon.

Also, just wanted to say, while I wish I could help reader email requests to identify their jade articles or potential buys, I don't have the expertise. I'm not an expert and it is difficult to judge from just photographs. This page is simply a hobby for me that I hope helps to steer others in the right direction. Please try to contact a commercial gem or jewelry expert. I hope you can understand, thank you.

Many merchants and antique dealers have a tendency to call any green-looking stone "jade", when it may really just be serpentine, glass or even plastic. Some confusion arises when the word "jade" is used misleadingly to describe something that is just "green". Sadly, a number of names for minerals are very misleading because they use the word "jade" but are not, in fact, either jadeite or nephrite. Listed here are a number of common fakes and fraud.

Here are a few ground rules and warnings about fake jades:

1. Just because something is green doesn't make it "jade".

2. Location names are almost a dead giveaway that something is not jadeite or nephrite.

Note About eBay: Be very careful when purchasing jade from sellers on eBay! As illustrated below in many examples, some dishonest or ignorant sellers are more than willing to use the word "jade" in many misleading ways. Try to make sure the seller specifies "jadeite" or "nephrite" and offers a guarantee. I even chose some of the good examples, like where it says "soapstone jade"...some confused or dishonest merchants might list their green soapstone as "jade" and not even say "soapstone". All examples were chosen from eBay on one day and are just a few chosen out of many examples. At any given time there are dozens to hundreds of fake jades for sale. Beware!"

""Honan Jade" is really soapstone, serpentine or steatite, not jade. It's even been described as bowenite."

""Dushan jade" is comprised of saussurite, not true jade.

"Dushan Jade" Example

In August 2006 I received email from someone demanding to know my source for this information, and called my page a "misleading bunch of bull". Setting the insults aside, the information on Dushan jade came fromR. V. Dietrich, Professor Emeritus from the College of Science and Technology, Central Michigan University. To quote:

Saussurite (also called Dushan jade, jade tenace, Nanyang jade, and Swiss jade) -This alteration product of some basaltic composition igneous rocks, or more particularly to their plagioclase feldspar component, consists largely of albite (sodium-rich plagioclase feldspar) and epidote and/or zoisite (both epidote group minerals) and commonly also includes lesser percentages of calcite and sericitic mica plus or minus one or more of the zeolite group minerals and/or prehnite. Some saussurite appears macroscopically homogeneous -- indeed it was once considered to be a mineral species. - [Distinguishing saussurite from jade by macroscopic means can be difficult -- e.g., both its typical hardness and specific gravity fall within the range of those of jade; thus, it is fortunate, and noteworthy, that saussurite is rarely found in pieces of desirable color that are large enough to be carved (etc.) so it has found little use as a jade substitute.].

Another website called "Chinese Jade Gifts" even states: "Nanyang jade: A kind of plagioclase rock with a hardness of 6-6.5 degree from Dushan, Nanyang, Henan province. So sometimes it is called Dushan jade." Sorry to say, but "plagioclase rock" is a feldspar, not jadeite or nephrite.

If that isn't considered convincing enough, check out this page

This page is called "Jade Sage from Mt. DuShan" and clearly states "Dushan Chime (Saussurite)"!

Followup: The person writing in to complain is in fact...a seller from eBay. After I politely responded with this information about saussurite, plagioclase and feldspar, she responded with, quote: "It seems redicious(sic) to me..I don"t(sic) want to talk about this anymore i'm sure to get my point...It takes all kind and your(sic) one of those other kinds I surpose(sic)..Your(sic) so full of it that it makes me sick". As I've said before, be very careful about purchasing jade on eBay!"
*************************************************
I cannot guarantee everything posted in this link is 100% accurate because I did not check on each item posted in his link but I like the one says about "Dushan jade" or Nanyang jade because Dushan jade is one of the three authentic material found in the making of archaic jades in China and was also used in making many modern jade carvings. Its hardness can be as high as 7.0 and its S.G. ranges from 2.5 to 3, therefore if you use either the scratch test or even the S.G. test to test it, you have no choice but to call some of the Dushan jade carvings jade, but it is really not jade.

I believe after you have spent some time in studied both jade books and jade carvings in auctions, museums, you would be able to tell a jade carving is not made of jade immediately.
Just remember, there is no free lunch, most of the time you get what you paid for and sometimes you may pay too much for fake jades. Good luck.

Bill

Dear Lux

Just 3 books you will rule the Jade World, they are shortcut for you to know more abt Chinese jade..

Leave many books written by self-proclaimed experts talking abt their own collections of "FAKES" alone, those books are just to push their sales, they will make you lost, and fall into the trap..and confused like somebody here.

Buy these three books.

1)Chinese Jade from The Neolithic to the Qing / J Rawson, British Museum

2)Chinese Jade. Selected articles from Orientations 1983-2003, translated into English from Chinese Archaeological researchers and scholars of CCRB.

To date jade
3)15 Volumns of Jade unearthed from China.

FYI
Anita

Dear Lux

You may read article by Eric first.
http://www.asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html

Have fun
Anita

URL Title :Old Chinese Jades: Real or Fake?

Thank you all so much for your great replies! I have heard many good things about Rawson's book, and am looking on eBay for a cheaper copy (most are over $100 that I have found so far). I did get Nott's book- I found it for only $15 (an old woman was selling her collection of artifact books, and I bought as many as I could- some of them are even worth over $1000 dollars!). I will also check for the others you both mentioned, and read the link you posted Anita.

About books written by private collectors about their own jades, I must say I completely agree with you. One book on jades which I find completely nonsense is "Jade" by Mircea Veleanu.

One last question: does anyone know if "Antique Jade" by Oscar Luzzatto is a good book?

Thanks again everyone for your time!

Hi, Lux:

You are very wise, just based on your opinion regarding the jade book that was written by the jade writer you mentioned in your message. Very often, the only purpose of a jade book is to show off the personal collection of a jade "writer" and then the jade writer can later quote his own jade book for the purpose of authenticating his own jades. How funny?

I was not as smart as you because I happend to get to know this "jade expert" and jade book writer because of this forum and he told me he would teach me about antique jades and at the time I really believed might be he did know something about jade.

Later, he posted some of the jade carving he attempeted to sell in his own site and other commercial web sites and they looked really "subpar" and questionable to me. Interestingly while he presented himself as a jade expert and a jade book writer, he really knew nothing about jade especially Hongshan jades.

This was one of the posting initiated by him:

http://asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=35573

Unfortunately some of his postings got deleted in this forum and I could no longer find the links regarding his books about jade, netsuke, etc. but if you search with his name in Amazon.com and read every posting regarding his books, you will learn a lot about how other feel about his books and some comments are very similar to your opinion.

It is truly sad that a supposedly jade expert and jade writer did not even spend enough time in the studying of jade material or jade carvings, netsuke, etc. and then wrote a book about the subjects he knew nothing about. The damages caused by him to those hobbies could not be overlooked.

When he declared in this form that there were no neprhite jades in Taiwan or California, I finally understood that he did not know anything about jade.

http://asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=35839

Luckily, I never did learn anything about jade from him or bought any "archaic jade carvings" for him. Otherewise I would become one of his victims.

One lady who had bought some "jadeite" necklaces from him wrote me after she read my postings in this forum and told me about her horror stories of buying those "jadeite" necklaces from this expert in very high prices and she was in the process of trying to recover her money from him with the assistance of her state attorney general's office. I cannot go into details here about her message. May be if she sees this message she may update us with the latest development here.

Therefore, I believe all of us jade collectors have to be very careful, unless you are buying your jade carvings from renown and reputable auction houses who will stand behind the items they auctioned (read their fine prints, not all auction companies were created equal), we have to be very careful in whom we can trust when we buy our jade carvings because when it comes down to "their money" and "our money", their always win if they can make money from us so that they can make a living. It does not mean there are no honest jade dealers out there, but they are just very scarce and far in between. Very often, if it is too good to be true, then it is too good to be true. The dealer whom I trust tells me to forget about acquiring any jade carvings that were made prior to Qing dynasty unless I am willing to spend a lot of money and he meant a lot.

Therefore, when there seem to be quite a few "genuine" Hongshan jade carvings for sale by a dealer in New York and were authenticated by reputable jade experts in China and U.S.A., for sales to the public for a few thousand dollars (up to $10,000) and the inventory of both archaic and Hongshan jade carvings of this dealer seem to exceed the known existence of authentic Hongshan jades, won't that make all of us pause and wonder:

"How is that possible?"

This same jade expert, jade book writer whom you mentioned in your message kept telling me every jade collector will one day become a jade dealer himself. Does that mean if we had unknowingly bought some "questionable jades" we will then have to "knowingly" sell them to other jade collectors later? I do not believe I will ever be a jade "dealer" myself. If I need to liquidate my collection, I will sell them through a jade dealer or auction houses. On the other hand, even occasionally selling a few jade carvings will not make me a jade dealer, unlike others who present themselves as jade experts and have their own web sites full of jade carvings that are listed for sales.

Is it a coincidence that many of the experienced jade collectors and/or jade experts including some of those who routinely participate in this forum and other forums, are dealers themselves or who have their own web sites in promoting their own jade carvings for sales to the public?

Now my question is, are they really so good or so lucky that they were able to buy many (if a few I can understand) authentic archaic jade carvings, neolithic jade carvings at a lot below market prices and therefore they can sell them to you at very good or "resonable" prices? Don't mistaken me, a lot of them can be very honest dealers and will state the jade carvings they sell are not "authentic". The dealer I trust did just that. It is amazed that he admits he only have three archaic jades in his own inventory and one is questionable while you look at some of the jade web sites on internet you can find tons of "archaic" jades for sales, some in great prices and some in astronomical prices. Are there any guarantee that you will get your moeny worth?

I do not believe so.

As a coin collector for many years, if I see a one-ounce gold coin that is listed for sale far below its melt value (bullion content)I will start running away from it. Is it so much different for jade collecting?

I always envy those experienced jade collectors who have enough confidence in either their own expertise in jade or in the jade dealers from whom they bought their jade carvings. Some of them had spent a lot of money in purchasing "authentic" jade carvings with or without a second opinion and never bother to sell any of their jade carvings through any reputable auction houses or back to the dealers from whom they bought the jade carvings. I wonder the only time they will really find out whether their jade carvings are worth anything is when they really need money badly and need to liquidate their jade carvings.

My advice is DO NOT put all your eggs in one basket, in this case, DO NOT spend all your money in buying jade carvings. You will almost be better off if you will spend some of them in buying gold, silver or even stocks.

I am not so sure too many jade collectors can really make money from their investments in jade carvings unless they are really really good, or having a lot of money in buying the best jade carvings or they are very very dishonest.

Thank you for sharing.

Bill

http://cgi.ebay.com/NZ-Maori-Greenstone-Bowenite-Tangiwai-Pounamu-Shell-WOW_W0QQitemZ250467671966QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090719?IMSfp=TL090719154003r2425

Ernest

Thank you all in your support! I have a friend that is a huge Asian antiquities collector and has many rare jade books. He told me once that there are only a few copies of several of them. I think one is from the late 1700s, but I could be wrong. Anyway, he made some photocopies of some of the rarer books for me, and I have been studying those. If anyone wants, I can post pages.

Bill/Anita/Ernest/anyone else, are there any books you would like me to make copies of? I could check and see if he has them. I'm sure it would be no problem, especially since he really doesn't collect jade.

As a long time collector of rare books, I know that some can exceed several thousand dollars. Just ask and I'll check for you. You all have given me a lot of good information, thanks!

--Lux

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