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Here is the link to my piece on imagebam.com:
http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/ee93ba2c16c4e161b478832590110a5c/
We bought it more than 10 years ago as sapphire and have an idea that it could be used in painting. Can someone guess its origin, craftsmanship (good/bad), age, value and any other information? Thanks in advance.

John, I'm not sure what it is supposed to be, but your item looks more like it may be carved of lapis lazuli, a softer and less precious blue stone than sapphire. Otherwise, it could be something else like alabaster or soapstone that has been dyed blue.

Sapphire is a corundum that ranks on the Mohs scale right behind diamond in hardness. It isn't a very easy rock to carve like yours is, and in any event would usually appear (I think) in unitary crystals rather than conglomerated as your stone appears to be.

I've included a picture of a cheap lapis snuff bottle which itself could have been enhanced with dye. However, the lower right sector sort of resembles the color and texture of your piece. I believe that lapis is mined in Central Asia. Afghanistan comes to mind as one possible place.

Certain identification of this item may be difficult because it could be out of context as is. Semiprecious stones such as lapis sometimes are carved with other types into larger constructs for altar or decorative use. It could be a small vessel for liquid, or it could be the base for a carving of an immortal who was meant to be seen as standing on waves.

Best regards,

Bill H

Is not the gemstone sapphire. Could be very poor quality lapis lazuli. Do web search for "Chinese blue hardstone" to find objects of same hue and probably same stone.

Yours look like brushwasher and carving at side could be used for brush rest. Considering all the inclusions and poorly finished carving, enjoy for color.

Good luck,
Cal

Dear Bill,
Ironically, my family happens to be gem dealers. We are living on gem business. We know quite well on corumdum and lepis, both produced in my country. SG and hardness of that two stones are quite different. The SG of our blue sapphire vase can be measured very easily by using mechanical balance. I am 100% sure this is blue corundum. Repeated twinning can be seen on the side of the vase. White spot on the surface is calcite which can be removed. The rest is corundum.

Since old times, my people have no skills in curving corundum as it is too hard. Only Chinese knew how to curve it, so it is our main curiosity.
Greatwarrior Gangis Khan had blue sapphire curving weared on his arm. That blue sapphire was of Burmese origin. It was exhibited in Burma in 1967, said my uncle who had seen it with his eyes. As far as he remembers, it was owned by a couple from Hong Kong at that time. You can trace it back if you are interested in it. As our vase is not definitely lepis, we send it to you.
We have several lepis at home whose hardness can be tested by scratching.

Thanks very much for your kind comment and interest.
Sincerely,
John

John,

If you and your family are gem dealers, you ought to be moderating discussions of gemstones in this forum instead of asking someone else to comment on a photo of a piece of apparently amorphous watery blue rock. I lived in Burma for a number of years and knew one of the most respected families of Shan gem merchants and manufacturers in the country. The closest thing I ever saw to this was masses of small pink ruby crystals in a natural quartz matrix which had been dynamited out of a 'private' mine somewhere in the Mogok area. Judging from what I know of the value of that related material, a half-way good piece of carved lapis is worth a lot more than what you've shown us here.

Good luck,

Bill H.

John, the stone is most likely sodalite.

Trish.

Hi, John:

Please forgive me for asking:

If you are from Mayanmar and your family happen to be gem dealers, you know quite well on corumdum (corundum) and lepis (lapis) and you are 100% sure this is blue corundum, then what exactly is the purpose of your posting this piece here for others' opinions?

First of all, what you said about lapis and sapphire (blue corundum) is quite correct:

"SG and hardness of that two stones are quite different."

Sapphire has a MOH hardness of 9 and a S.G. of 3.9-4.1 while lapis has a hardness of 5-5.5 and a S.G. of 2.7-2.9 (I actually see much lower on poor quality of lapis. Many of these so called lapis carvings sold currently are actually made of sodalite which has a hardness of 5.5-6.0 but a much lower S.G. of 2.27-2.33.

Therefore if you would be kind enough to post the S.G. and MOH hardness of your "Blue Corundum" piece here, then their test results will speak for itself since you did say "The SG of our blue sapphire vase can be measured very easily by using mechanical balance."

Now if you would say you had not tested your vase yet, then I wonder how you could have said "I am 100% sure this is blue corundum."

Also, I am also quite puzzled with your statement:
"Since old times, my people have no skills in curving corundum as it is too hard. Only Chinese knew how to curve it, so it is our main curiosity. "

I am very curious to learn from you where you got the idea that Chinese knew how to "carve" corundum which has a hardness of 9 since old times? What exactly are OLD TIMES and how in the world the Chinese could have carved a "corundum" piece as large as yours with a hardness of 9? With diamonds? There was simply no record of diamond was being used in carving any large corundum carvings in China at old time or even modern time. Even with all the modern tools today, it would be hard-pressed for any carvers to carve such blue corundum vase.

Secondly, where in the world one would find such a large piece of blue corundum and why would one used it to carve such an ugly vase (forgive my saying so).

You also said "Greatwarrior Gangis (Genghis) Khan had blue sapphire curving weared (worn) on his arm. That blue sapphire was of Burmese origin. It was exhibited in Burma in 1967,"

I would be glad if you would be kind enough to give me some references for this story.

At first I also thought that this might be made of sodalite, however when I look at its bottom, its texture dose look a little bit like a piece of red corundum I have. Therefore without further testing results of your vase, it will be unfair for any of us to continue in guessing what material was used to made your vase. Therefore, if you would be kind enough to share the S.G. and MOH hardness of your vase with us, I believe it would be very helpful. Thanks.

Bill

(Bill without the H)

John:

Your statement "We have several lepis at home whose hardness can be tested by scratching." confuses me and I hope you would be kind enough to clarify for me.

I wonder what you were trying to say was:

Since your "blue corundum" vase could not be scratched (pass the scratch test), therefore it was not made of lapis but since you could scratch those "lepis" at your home, therefore they would
be made of lapis, is this correct?

However, I must point to you that this may not necessarily be true. While it is correct that blue corundum (or sapphire) has a MOH harndess of 9.0 and could not be scratched (by metal which has a hardness of 5.0), however lapis has a hardness between 5 - 5.5 I once did a study of a large number of lapis carvings (and lapis rocks samples) and found that some lower quality of lapis (the one with white Calcite) could be scratched but the better one (with golden pyrite) could not be scratched. The better one all have hardness of 5.5 which is higher than that of metal and could not be scratched. So unless you have a MOH hardness picks (with different hardness such as 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10), you are not going to be able to test the difference between your blue corundum vase and your lapis pieces at home with a simple scratch test.

You really should test their S.G. because in my study I find that the higher of the quality of the lapis the higher their S.G. will be and vice versa.

In short I do not believe you can just say what your vase was made of without specific testing results.

Hope this will help.

Bill

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