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Dear friends,

This is NOT A SOLICITATION. I REALLY could use some expert advice...

I listed a beautiful 'Swallow' vase marked with a 4 character iron red Qianlong mark on Ebay on Saturday.

As a novice collector/seller, when I listing the item, I had believed that the vase was a nice early 20th c. copy and made no claim to its age/period, only that it had a Qianlong mark.

However, within hours of the start of the auction, someone in China bid the vase up to $1,000. After only a day, the vase has a staggering number of watchers.

Having researched the mark and design further, I am now wondering if this vase could be genuine Qianlong, and given the beautiful mark, of Imperial quality.

I am pleaing for all serious collectors who may not already be aware of the listing to PLEASE check out the listing and offer any evaluation of vase as to its authenticity so that I can update the description acurately.

I will not end auction early, but just want to make sure that the vase is described accurately and ends up in the hands of a serious collector if in fact as good a piece as it appears to be.

Ebay listing can be found here...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=180566007545

I purchased the vase from a rare coin and antique gold/silver shop in South Florida. Owner advised he acquired it along with some other rare antiques as part of a trade/settlement on a large gold transaction.

Regards,
Tim

This is not an imperial vase of Qianlong but a much more common later Republic piece. If buyers want it so bad let them. Although sometimes people just bid whatever price they want with no intention of paying simply to prevent others from winning. I notice it happening quite a lot lately with items having being auction for high prices only to have the seller relist the items again because the bidder was mucking around.

NO! but it's always nice to benefit from buyer ignorance.

Dear Tim,

I never saw an imperial red mark with 4 characters in a double square in regular script (only in sealscript). Most of the ones I saw were from second half of the 20th century.
Maybe the writing is a clue for the high biddings.

Regards,

Arjan

Hi to all.

One of my old Taipei Palace Museum catalog shows this image of a period four character Qianlong mark in clerical script on a bowl decorated in red and gilt dragons amidst clouds. I believe period Yongzheng marks of this type are more common.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Bill, Where can I get a copy of that catalog??

The strokes in your mark are nearly identical to the strokes in my vase's mark.

Where is that piece? Private collection? Museum?

Tim, I bought my copy at the museum in Taipei in 1987. I believe it is out of print, but you may be able to find a used copy at a major source such as Paragon Book Gallery in Chicago [www.paragonbook.com] or even book auctions on eBay.

The name is 'Catalog of the Special Exhibition of K'ang-hsi, Yung-cheng and Ch'ien-Lung Porcelain Ware from the Ch'ing Dynasty in the National Palace Museum' published by the National Palace Museum, Wai-shuang-hsi, Shi-lin, Taipei. There is no ISBN.

In my opinion, your vase doesn't particularly have a Qianlong oomph to it but is a decent Republic or slightly later example of that most common of Chinese themes, the 'Flower & Bird painting' {hua niao tu). I'm not sure your vase is so early, but the clerical style of Chinese script was popular on porcelain during the first few years of the Republic and especially around the Hongxian period (1915-16), although most of the Qianlong marks of this type seem to have been blue & white.

While you're ordering books, if you don't have them, you would do well to round up copies of 'The Great Fortune' and 'Vom Schatz der Drachen' [From the Dragon's Treasure], both of which works are catalogs of the late acclaimed porcelain collector Georg Weishaupt. They are required reading for anyone who hopes to appreciate late Qing and Republic porcelains. Both have images of the marks on most of the porcelains described.

There appears to be no artist signature in the inscription on your vase, just poetic verse and ersatz seals. However, it may be that your bidders think they recognize the style of some famous Republic porcelain painter. Mainland China discussion groups debate the nuances of such pieces intensely. As has been pointed out, there also are a lot of recreational bidders around eBay who get their kicks out of bidding high and not paying.

Good luck,

Bill H.

Tim, there actually are significant differences between the mark on your vase and what's on the bowl in the Taipei Palace Museum. These marks were written by different people, as the character form and brushwork differ in almost every case. Here's the catalog mark overlaid semi-transparently in red on your mark in black & white. Hopefully you can see the contrast.
Best regards,
Bill H.

Wow! So very cool how you've created the overlap.

Yes...I see the variation in the writing. As you may already be aware, the auction ended and the vase was sold to a Chinese collector living in Australia who I have sold to in the past.

I am extremely grateful for your assistance.

Regards, Tim

Thanks for showing Bill H. I never saw this before. Also of the Yongzheng period I only saw them in blue.

Regards,

Arjan

Yes....I have not seen any 4 character regular script marks except in 20th c. pieces, either.

HOWEVER, in my search for examples of examples of 20th c. Qianlong copies, I came across the Brunk's Auction sale of a 20th c. Qianlong copy for $1.2 million. Are you familiar?

Here's two links, one with better photos and the other with better info:

http://www.prices4antiques.com/pottery-porcelain/porcelain/Porcelain-Chinese-Qianlong-Vase-Famille-Rose-Yellow-Ground-Pear-Shape-12-inch-D9755617.htm

http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index.php/features/antiques/905?fontstyle=f-smaller

The Brunk's auction scenario along with the quick and high bid so soon into my Ebay auction is what raised my concern.

I'm fine knowing that the vase is 20th c., that's what I've been thinking all along. But, I'm wondering if you can explain how it was determined to use archaic or regular script, iron red or underglaze blue, 4 character or 6 character. This might help me better understand why, or why not, a 4 character script mark could not be Imperial.

Thanks.

Hahaha!

This is a joke....right?

Three (unidentified) bidders jump the bids from $9.99 direct to $500 instead of $20, direct to $600 instead of $510, and direct to $1000 instead of $610?

What's the chandelier going to bid next for the vase, $5000?

LOL
Gman

Hey....I think you are being a bit unfair to me to suggest that I am shell bidding my own auction. I sell a lot of great Chinese pieces, including in the past year an 18th c. jade screen for $20k, 18th/19th 100 birds embroidery for $2500, and dozens of items from $1500-2000.

I simply would like to know more about the stuff I sell since I am not an expert on Chinese art.

Your comments are unconstructive to say the least.

Quote Tim:
"Hey....I think you are being a bit unfair to me to suggest that I am shell bidding my own auction. I sell a lot of great Chinese pieces, including in the past year an 18th c. jade screen for $20k, 18th/19th 100 birds embroidery for $2500, and dozens of items from $1500-2000."



Hey,.... I don't recall "suggesting" that you are shell bidding your own auction, but now that YOU have brought it up, I suppose that would explain my concerns about why the (conveniently) unidentified bidders would unnecessarily raise their bids so far beyond what is logically needed to take over the highest bid position.

Your claims regarding the prices you have allegedly been paid for other "Great Chinese pieces", are unsubstantiable, just like the ridiculously high bids at the above auction, so go ahead and tell me another story,...I like stories.

I suppose I could claim that other online auctioneers have paid me thousands of dollars to refrain from commenting in their auction related posts, but that would also be unsubstantiable.

And my comments may be quite constructive for those readers who may not understand the workings of online auctions, and auctions in general, where the auctioneer (in this case, you) is there for one purpose, to keep the price moving upwards.

If a piece fails to sell because he has moved the price beyond what someone will pay, the object is simply recycled to the next auction, either because the item did not reach the minimum, or because the winning bidder failed to pay for the item, quite convenient, and quite difficult for the underbidders to question.

The Asian Art Forum has long been used by online auctioneers to advertise their auctions, and that is likely why the moderators dumped this post into the Message Board, which in effect placed it in the area where readers should apply a healthy amount of caveat emptor to whatever they are being presented with.

Cheers
Gman

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