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Hi,
I would gratefully thank anybody that would be able to translate this two Poems that appear in this two paintings.
On the other hand, if anybody could help me to identify the style or date of the painting that would be great. Years ago someone told me the first one was painted in 1590 by Wen Zenghming...

the poem inscribed on the picture is purportedly signed by Wen Zhengming, but neither painting nor the inscription are by him, rather the painting of a Daoist paradise scene, probably 19th century. where does the other inscription appear?

Thank you. Yes, I supposed it was later than Wen Zengming, since it�s not his style from what I have seen on the internet. The other poem comes from this scroll.

hm, similar kind of scroll as the other you posted but more polished, perhaps 20th c., hard to tell from the photos. sorry not to be have a translation handy but am on vacation!

sorry to be precipitous Juan, I just went back to the first photo of the inscription you posted and discovered that it's by a minor Qing painter named Peng Yang, most likely genuine (at least to me, having never seen other Peng Yang paintings before). Unfortunately I don't see dates for him in the reference I am using, but the painting inscription gives a cyclical year of xinwei, equivalent to: 1871, 1811, 1751, etc. Unlike the other painting you posted, which appears to be either a anonymously professionally painted Daoist theme orignally sold for decorative or religious purposes that later got a fake Wen Zhengming inscription tacked onto it to goose its sales appeal, this picture is signed and dated by a Qing artist about whom I would wager there is very little information or other examples published or in museums. That is, it has both decorative and historical value. Take care of it, because it's probably one of the few sources of information about this artist that exists today. The inscription looks like a title for the scene, likely from traditional Chinese lore, and a paragraph on the story, followed by some brief remarks by the painter. Will try to figure these out at some point, but not today! but congratulations. You haven't hit the jackpot, but you have something genuine, decent, and historically valuable.

Thank you very much for your help Rat! I see you are a big lover and you know a lot from art!
I understand that the painting done by Peng Yang is the second one, right? the one with the little poem.
I don�t know why but when I see both scrolls that I showed to you, the one by "Wen Zengming" looks older and maybe of better quality. I suppose thats possible, right? Uhmm
Im posting some other things here that maybe can give us a clue! This inscriptions were in the back of the painting (I�m sorry but I don�t remember which, because I have two other scrolls, one showing Daoist Immortals, and the other a deer) and one is from the deer!
Regarding The "Zengming" painting, there is a inscription on the bottom of the painting...
By the way, hope you enjoyed your holydays!

Hi Juan, Yes you are right, from your detailed photographs I can see that the "Wen Zhengming" painting is better quality than I first thought, but still not by Wen, certainly Qing dynasty. The label on the left belongs to the "Wen Zhengming" painting, the one on the right belongs to the deer painting. It says that it is imitating Song dynasty painting style, but actually it is imitating paintings of deer by Zhu Da/Bada Shanren, who has become very popular for his appealing paintings and their quirks.

Can you please take a close up photograph of the two seals near the signature on the "Wen Zhengming" painting?

Wow rat, you are awesome. You really know a lot! Thanks for your interest!
Regarding the seals, here are a couple of them. Hope you are able to identify some of them!
(I made some color correction to make them clearer)

thanks Juan, I like paintings. thanks for making hte seals clearer, but actually these aren't the seals of greatest interest. nonetheless the first two are "Wen Zhengming" seals and follow the inscription that's supposed to be by Wen but really isn't, so these aren't important. the third and fifth seals are supposed to belong to the Qianlong emperor, and the fourth is supposed to belong to the Xuantong emperor, indicating that this painting was supposedly in the imperial collection for most of the 18th through the early 20th century. However, these aren't genuine imperial seals either. The seals I am most interested in are those along the right edge of the painting, near the figures. I believe there are two along the right edge to of the group of three male figures and another one somewhere around the bottom right corner. It's possible that the first two are by the actual painter, and the one at the bottom belongs to someone who owned the picture at some point. thanks

if you can photograph some of the details of the paintings at this level of resolution it might be revealing too. maybe the figures, some of the water, the vegetation, an interesting rock?

Oops, I understand. I missed the seals. Here they are! I wonder that if the seals are fake....that shouldn�t be good, right?
The first and second are the ones near the figures of the bottom corner right of the figures. The third is a seal a little bit higher of that one. Next post with some little details.
Hope this help!

ok, the first two photos contain the information that might help identify the artist. unfortunately I can hardly read it, so if you have any photoshop type tools/filters at your disposal please apply them. the two written characters are likely either the artist's given name or a nickname he took for himself; the artist's full name is on the seal I would think.

The third seal is a third "Qianlong" seal. The Qianlong emperor was notorious for impressing seals and writing long poetic inscriptions on paintings in the imperial collection. that his seals are round or oval isn't the issue. the seals on your painting imitate seals he is known to have used on paintings, but ordinarily they were applied in a certain grouping (often of five seals), including an inventory seal or two. while it's also true that the Xuantong emperor would ordinarily impress his seal in a less conspicuous location as here, underneath one of the "Qianlong" seals, if the painting was in the imperial collection for the Qianlong-Xuantong reign periods there should be evidence of the inventory seals as well, which aren't here.

Juan, in particular, try to get a clear shot of the upper half of the first seal, especially its upper right quarter. thanks

Hm...This gets difficult. Ok this is and attempt of trying to make it clearer. For me it�s difficult since I don�t have much knowledge of symbols.
The problem of this seal is that is very very small. and partialy blured. Lets see if this helps a little bit!
By the way, I really apreciate your efford helping me on this!

thanks Juan. unfortunately I think it leads us into a dead end for the moment, alas, because the surname on the seal (character in the upper right) is Zhang, and the given name on the seal and as inscribed in ink seems to be Ruitu. There was a well-known late Ming official and calligrapher who also painted landscapes(died 1644) named Zhang Ruitu. However, just as in the case of the "Wen Zhengming" seal and inscription on this picture, these aren't correct as far as I can tell. First, the hand that inscribed the two characters "Ruitu" in ink is attractive but looks nothing like Zhang Ruitu's own handwriting (google Zhang Ruitu and look at the images for yourself). Second, on all of Zhang Ruitu's seals that I can find images of showing his full name like this (I am looking in the Shanghai Museum two volume set of artist's seals), he always has it carved as:

Rui Zhang

Tu yin (seal of)


whereas here, the seal is carved as:

Tu Zhang

yin Rui

third, the painting style has little if any connection to paintings by Zhang Ruitu (or Wen Zhengming). so again it seems we are back to an anonymous Qing painting of a Daoist them that has been embellished, most likely by a dealer, with inscriptions and seals that are supposed to make the picture either by or owned by/inscribed upon by Wen Zhengming and Zhang Ruitu, with a couple of seals of the Qianlong and Guangxu emperors. the painting seems to have some age to it and the figures are fairly well done, the landscape elements somewhat more cursory, but it's hard for me to say with any precision when it was painted. I would lean toward the 19th century, but it could be somewhat earlier (or later). sorry for the wild goose chase!

Hahaha, rat! This has been very interesting! I have really enjoyed this researching. It�s surprising how strange this painting is. I suppose this was common in those dates, to add things to increase the value.
It�s a pity, because for me it�s a very beautiful painting. Although this info has just made it more beautiful. I don�t mind it�s not a master painting!

By the way. I will try to post in this forum next time 3 more things I have. Hope you can help me as you have done now.

By the way, if any day you have any free time, or don�t know what to do, I would be very happy if you have the chance to tell me what is written in the poem. But this is just in case you have the chance. I would be very thankful!

Thank you very much for your research and time!

Here some details of the painting.

Rat, are the seals bad seals because of the oval form?

Some other.

I thought you may want to have a look to the Deer Scroll. I don�t know anything about this one, there are not marks here. Only the back writing.

this reminds me of deer painted by early Qing painter Zhu Da, who is also known as Bada Shanren. This deer is not a copy of a Bada painting but is similarly posed. The earliest this painting could possibly be is Ming, but I am pretty sure it's later than that.

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