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Got this tang pottery figure today that stands 11 inches tall. Think that is the correct name for this style of pottery. Does anyone know the person with a bird?

Looks like a copy .

Looks like a copy is a no brainer; there is no doubt it is a copy. The question was: Who is this person? The American museums call her "The Lady with a Bird" and that also is a no brainer. Copied and placed in burial tombs since the Tang Dynasty and no mythology? Just guessing it might be "Jingwei filling the sea" meaning a symbol of dogged determination and perseverance in the face of seemingly impossible odds. The most important aspect of the bird�s divinity in China was the birds identity with the soul. This could represent the story of immortality and vengeance. "The Lady with a Bird" is a six graders responce to the question of who is this person. A museum curator definition should be better then this?

Is not 'lady', women did not wear helmets with neck guards.

Original inspiration for this new product might have held halberd or spear or banner in both hands, harder to mold so maker decide to make cute for tourist with bird.

Are modern potters making imitation ancient (say Han to Tang Dynasty) items with fake whitish coating, better fakes have more or less intact glaze under coating. Can find these on sites mass-selling for many Chinese makers. Coating supposed to represent degraded-lead-glaze-iridescence, but old glazes not degrade so uniform way. Such for sale may not be exact 'reproduction' of old but just something look similar enough for non-educated eyes. Same idea as new hardstone carvings sold as 'Hongshan jade', fantasy creations mainly for persons think can get ancient items without pay fortune.

Good luck,
Cal

A helmet and neck guard and glaze? Are we looking at the same statue? No glaze on this one, only dirt and calcium deposits which can be added. There are no color glazes and unless helmets have folds this figure has a head covering like a scarf. Do not see a soldier breast plate or neck guards but a kimono robe and hair in buns. This is just kiln fired clay without glaze and the only color is dirt and calcium deposits. If you know anything about kiln fired pottery a little bird on the hand is not easier than a soldiers tablet or shield. The Chinese do still make Tang and Han pottery in small family run kilns that have made them as a tradition for hundreds of years but mass produced in factories doubtful.

yes this is a replica/fake. the originals were buried; this guy could be a falconer or something similar but there weren't named individuals associated with the various types of tomb figurines, they were just generic types.

Tang dynasty style of 618�907 which is a thousand years of copies. Like I said: no doubt in my mind it is a copy of the Tang style. Like the numbered limited edition print is a copy of a painting it is not a fake; Tang pottery has been made for over a thousand years in every dynasty since Tang. The traditional wood kiln fired pottery started in the Tang dynasty and with your logic everything since is a fake? Not a fake, a tradition. With this tradition there is a myth or story, some underlined reason why these figures were buried with ancestors. The title: "Lady with a Bird" is higher education???

http://museum.cornell.edu/collections/view/tomb-lady-bird.html

This litle statue doesn't have anything to do with the Tang dynasty.
The style is wrong. The clay is wrong, the colores are wrong.The face doesn't look chinese...
Beside, it's not a lady neither. I't's just an fantasy statuette of a guy holding a bird made to look like if it could be old and could be chinese.
Merry Christmas

Style is wrong? Check eBay Item number: 250954203598

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chinese-Pottery-camel-and-trainer-Tang-Dynasty-/250954203598?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item3a6e0941ce

Sure looks like the same style and mine was only $9.00 where this "antique store in China" wants $3 thousand. Think my price was a little closer to actual value. Just wanted to know who the "Lady with a Bird" was; she is at several museums?

Patrick - I am curious, as I just looked at this ebay link. He has a funny mixture in there of real items and fakes. And his descriptions sound like they are copied from other websites...

The prices are set up to maximize his profits. If you buy in China in the countryside or from peasants who deal in such things (in other words not in any shop) you can actually see which items are fake and which are real based on the prices as his markup seems to be pretty standardized (about 8 to 10 times). If you work the prices back based on that formula you should get the "countryside market price" of each item.

For example, he has a listing for 6 Han amber glazed carved jars excavated in one tomb at a price of 2000 USD. Now work it backwards: 2000 USD x 6.3 = 12600 RMB / 6 pots = 2100 per pot. At a ten times markup thats about 210 RMB per pot which is about what they would sell for (at most). Probably old, who knows if they are Han or not but nothing special when buying as a wholesaler. You see this stuff at furniture factories all the time and they are just not particularly valuable in China.

The Chinese Ming Dynasty blue glazed pottery figural attendant for 79 USD (487 RMB) means he probably paid between 20 to 40 RMB for it - the exact price you can buy them in bulk for at Panjiayuan (the weekend market in Beijing). So the price right away tells you something is wrong. Even the peasants are smart enough to know that a Ming figurine goes for more then 487 RMB.

Maybe I should go visit his shop sometime.. ;)

Thought my question was simple. For thousands of years the Chinese have made pottery figurines of a "Lady with a Bird" and was only looking for the story of the artwork; the myth behind the figure. The fact that the figure is a copy of a thousand year old item is a no brainer. The Asian culture is always deep in thought and full of wisdom only made me feel an item buried with ancestors and copied for thousands of years would have a story. Still today the "Lady with a Bird" is seen in paintings and pottery. Art to me has an underlined reason, not just balloons of paint thrown at a canvas?

yes you are right, this is not a fake of anything. it is proudly in the tang tradition. unfortunately its quality is quite poor. as the rest of my message answered your initial question, however, i'll refer you back to it. you're welcome.

The New York Metropolitan Museum of Art's 'Handbook of Chinese Ceramics' refers to the Chinese perpetuation of certain forms and patterns as 'design continuation'. However, this figurine looks like it might more appropriately be called an example of latter-day 'Design Attenuation'.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Sorry, ik can't help with the who is who question but I wouldn't call it Tang just because it "looks" like it. This piece is probably rather new. Not the fact that it's made in Tang style but because the piece is treated to look old makes that I call it a FAKE.

Regards,

Arjan

Made a big mistake saying "no glaze" I was wrong; checking closer I found the item was in color; can still faintly see the belt and small bits of a purple and brown lacqure type paint. Must of had color at some point?

Thank you, Rat and Bill and Perrie; I do read your responces. An example of latter-day 'Design Attenuation' of Tang pottery is on eBay and in furniture stores. Obviously something is lost, referring to famous literary Chinese stories.

http://www.1001chinesefurniture.com/chinese-ceramic/chinese-tang-dynasty-handmade-decoratie-lady-with-cat-sancai-clay-figure.htm

I found asian artwork focuses on Chinese social, religious and cultural history, rather than the art by Chinese elites typically featured in museums. Claiming these figures that come from the Tang Dynasty are just generic without a story is like saying snow is white. Thinking the figures are made by ordinary people that did not make the elites status of recognition certificates? Just commonly encountered artwork from ordinary people, without any higher class status of recognition. Origin would be Chinese people without any social, religious and cultural history, the poor? Therefore, they are fakes.

Falconry has been around in China since about day one, I believe, and keeping homing pigeons is a national pastime that I think has deep roots too. If we can take Tang-era tomb art as a clue, then scenes of women playing polo suggest that sports weren't evenly divided along male and female lines at that time.

The Manchu practice of foot-binding may have kept women of the elite set off horseback, but women involved in falconry was much a standard pattern in Qing porcelain. Here's an 18th century Qianlong-period plate with matching cup and saucer in a popular pattern, showing a servant bringing a falcon to the apparent mistress of the house.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Hi Patrick, I see your point, but in the case of Tang tomb figurines, and likely those of other periods as well, the only people who had such elaborate tombs as to include these figures were indeed the political and social elites, and during the Tang no doubt the landed aristocracy. While I think some of the guardian figures are identifiable as particular characters, and sets of attendants with zodiac animal heads also appear in tombs, I don't believe anyone has identified many of the other types that turn up when tombs are discovered. Do all the Han horses or warriors in Han tombs have names? How about Sui horses and female attendants? There are certainly stories or political and literary characters featuring women with birds, people who ride horses, and standing attendants, but to suggest that each tomb figurine stands for a specific character is something I don't think we have the information to claim. Also in many cases these figurines were made in batches and included in significant numbers in the tomb, which suggests to me that Chinese artisans were not making 25 versions of the same character, but simply a large number of attendants to indicate the degree of service to which the tomb occupant was accustomed.

Like the 6,000 terra cotta warriors? Each one a differant feature. There are ceramics techniques to create a pottery mask for each individual person. Doubtful there are ceramics techniques to create a full exact figure in todays society. Just more mysteries about those ancestors living in caves, fighting off dinosaurs with sticks? Earliest known ceramics are the Gravettian figurines that date to 29,000 to 25,000 BC. Tomb pottery artifacts have been helpful in the development of theories on the organisation, economic condition and the cultural development of the societies that produced or acquired pottery. Yet, our search for intelligent design from our ancestors would put in question darwin's theory of evolution.
Thinking there is more to the story then what we are led to believe.

no the terra cotta warriors were mass produced using a set of different faces and other parts. see lothar ledderose's book "Ten Thousand Things".

there may be more to the story, but sometimes occam's razor makes more practical sense

This piece not made for burial, made for sale as simulation of antiquity and not like what made for burial.

The bird not a raptor (eagle, falcon) used for hunting as shown in Bill H. example.

Bird in color figurine is parrot not like bird first item.

Sometimes bird mean "good news" (wishing for auspicious event such as pass examination) especially magpie, but bird in first item not look like magpie and not made for auspicious wishes. Such item given as gift in China would be embarrassing, like give new 1-dollar dish to collector 17th-century Kakiemon wares.

Good luck,
Cal

When I first saw the item it reminded me of the story "Jingwei filling the sea" the youngest daughter of emperor Yandi perished in the East Sea when she was quite young. After her death, she turned into a bird and tried to fill up the sea. My first thought was emperor Yandi and his daughter Jingwei. Bird is to small to be falcon. From my understanding most Chinese people do not usually open a gift in front of the giver. It might embarrass the giver or make them appear greedy. The ideal gift needn't be big or expensive; unless your American Chinese?

If you think the requirement for big, expensive gifts ends with ABCs, then take heed! Never fail to splurge on a trendy lady from such fashion-conscious metropolises as Hong Kong, Taipei and Singapore, as well as other Asian centers of Chinese culture like Bangkok. Been there, done that! :)
Bill H.

Bill, sounds more like the "Water Trade" then gift giving?

Hey Bill H, Rat, etc

I think you�re being too polite to this person. He has been excessively rude to everyone who has been trying to give well-meaning advice.

I�m no expert, but Mr Norton, please note the following:
� the fact that this object emulates Tang dynasty style does not mean there has been �1,000 years� of copying. Tang ceramics have gone in and out of style, but the current era of copying is very recent and exists only to feed current market hunger for such things;
� the object can also not be said to be some sort of �honest� peasant�s art with some sort of lineage going back a milennium. It is tourist-oriented fakery designed to trick people with something that looks old, but is not a �copy� of anything in particular;
� the object is not a �lady with a bird�. The link to Cornell you posted is clearly of a well-known Tang dynasty type, the �fat lady�. Your object is probably a rough approximation of a Tang dynasty spearman or groom figure, dolled up with a bird as Cal says to �cutesy� it up for tourists.

It is a tourist artifact.

Please show respect to Bill H, Rat and Cal etc when they give you the benefit of their extensive experience.

JLim

I have great respect for Ernest, Bill H, Rat and Cal and only debated issues to increase my knowledge. The pottery-making process usually requires two different stages of kiln firing: bisque and glaze, after cooking for 20 hours, and waiting until the oven cools, the kiln is ready to open. Shiwan Ceramics, which goes back five thousand years in China is a kiln fired ceramic produced by six complicated procedures, including design, molds, pouring the slurry for figuration, amending cog, glazing and burning.
and I was looking for historical perspective, reflecting the difficulty and intelligence of the potters. "IE" Who is this person? Just a debate on the difficulty of creation without historical meaning? Not trying to disrespect the experts and if this is a mass produced copy for tourism then eBay should have ten thousand identical ones listed. Asian Art forum in my opinion is providing trustworthy information, education, and a independent voice with debate. No disrespect intended; just education and common sense.

"if this is a mass produced copy for tourism then eBay should have ten thousand identical ones listed."

Maybe only a few hundred or thousand made, maybe did not sell well. If made last year, maybe buyers not ready to dispose of yet. If only paid little for item, maybe not expect to get enough by sale on *Bay to cover website costs/fees.

Discussion of techniques particular times better through looking at genuine items or closer imitations.

Good luck,
Cal

If Taipei is a good example, then every city in China with a major university probably has a street full of stores next door to the campus catering to art students who consign their projects and freelance work for sale to all comers, including tourists. Graphic arts, sculpture, ceramics, it's all there, and a good deal of it is original and not necessarily signed. Figuring out what every figurine represents would be a task that I wouldn't envy.

Cheers,

Bill H.

Got this clay pot at a yard sale for $1.00 and it had OTTO + Vivika carved on the bottom. Had "no clue" where this kiln fired little pot came from and figured it was just someones art project. Listed it on eBay and it flew over $500.00 and now I know it was an Otto and Vivika Heino pottery item; a husband-and-wife team for thirty-five years, signing their pots Vivika + Otto, regardless of who actually made them.

"What you give away you have forever; what you keep to yourself, you lose." (Vivika Heino)

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