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I was lucky enough to buy some great HS jades recently,...among witch this one I wanted to share with you Anita...

enjoy...

Pipane






Link :Pipane Asian Art Gallery

Dear Pipane

It's hard to tell Hongshan jades from pictures, since there're few hundreds (small beads, not ture jades, carved stones included) properly excavated, recorded, numbered and studied by CCRB and Prof.Gou..The Hongshan artefacts outside China, they may not be authentic..errors happended all the time..good fake, bad fake..super fake are flooding market like plaque for decades...true mixed up with false....I have no idea on your piece actually, but the form is correct.

You may search from eBay and Alibaba.com if it has similar piece, that will tell you something.

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. Pls kindly activate your membership of my forum, you have applied, but not activate yet.

Authentic Hongshan pig dragon?

Very doubtful. Everything is wrong about it. Inferior material; no nostrils, no central ridge inside the large central hole, inferior luster and doubtful Se Jin (color stain). Cannot see its top, however there does not appear to be a ridge either.

Such an ugly stone will be thrown away long time ago before it would be selected for making HS jade. Please DO NOT kid yourself or others that this pig dragon is anything close to authentic Hongshan jades. It is not even a good copy. Worth may be about RMB $20, hope you do not pay too much for it. Show me a close up picture of the unique Hongshan carving techniques, may be then you can convince me it is genuine.

The jade bird on your site is much better. I can find pig dragons on eBay that looks much better than your pig dragon. How come you are so lucky in finding so many "authentic" Hongshan items so effortless for sales on your web site?

Why are you posting a commercial item that is for sales at your site and with your site link listed here? You really should list it on the Message Board whether such commercial item is allowed but it should not be posted in the AAF.

Bill

Nice material
Nice carving
Nice luster
Unique characteristics
genuine qin se 沁色 (color stains)

Nice, but I was talking about "Hongshan jades"; archaic jades carved at the end of Neolithic period in Northern China. Not about what you're showing here

Just like if I were collecting Japanese 16-17th century Ivory and started a post here...and you show me the last Ivory like plastic from "I don't want to know what" factory of Kualalumpur....

Then you expect me to tell you why the Kualalumpur plastic is fake (or so different), and how I can say that mine is authentic (beside the fact you find it "ugly")...

Then you will argue that yours is much more "esthetics's" and "interesting", that "you can say for sure" that it is not that recent/mine can't be original...

All that mixed with half baked information and references...like your unique "tool carving mark theory" your "jade attribute theory", the now famous "Neolithic period Chinese belief theory" or I don't know what other "unique characteristics theory"...

Do you only realize that?

I'll let Anita explain you what's wrong with you "pig-dragon" (not from esthetical point of view of course).

Here a picture form Shanghai musueum...in order to get back to our subject "Hongshan jade" and NOT "good looking, nice color copies of HS jade from South China factories"

thanks for understanding

Pipane

I truly have no idea in what you are trying to say by using your example of ivory to compare with the authenticity of a pig dragon. Sometimes you truly lost me. I simply fail to see the similarity between the two - ivory and Hongshan pig dragon.

The funny thing is that you truly puzzle me because some times you do seem to know something about jades although not necessarily Hongshan jades and you do have a few nice jades including Hongshan jades in your web site. However, you have never heard of many of the Hongshan gurus in China and have never read the books written by them until recently. You once claimed that there was no authentic Hongshan jade carapace existed until I show one that was excavated from an authentic Hongshan site. In short, I have no idea where and how you derived your knowledge regarding Hongshan jades from and how you attribute or authenticate any of your Hongshan jades shown by you in this forum or those that are currently listed for sales by you.

You see, if you really have no "criteria" in authenticating a Hongshan jades and for that matter a Hongshan pig dragon and only use the criteria of "because I said so", then you are really no different than what a "jade expert/jade book writer" had done not too long ago in this forum, by quoting his own books in supporting the authenticities of his jade pieces that are for sales including a very large yellow jade Hongshan rhyton that he believed was made with rare yellow nephrite jade but pointed out by me as yellow-greenish serpentine.

I find that in order for us to authenticate (or attempt to authenticate) Hongshan jades by their forms, styles or material are simply inadequate, you must examine the carving techniques used in carving such pieces and by the types of Qin-se (color stains) found on them to assure that they are truly authentic. If you do not study such unique carving techniques found on them, then you will never be able to tell a genuine Hongshan jade carving from a fake one no matter how good you believe your HS pieces are.

I did not make up how those carving techniques used on Hongshan jade carvings should look like. I learn them from reading books written by Hongshan jade experts in China. There are a lot of discussions about this type of unique Hongshan "carving" (3 types of carving technique, one on top of each other)found on genuine Hongshan jade carvings. I advise you to spend some time in reading and understanding before you would post any more Hongshan jades here.

Furthermore, you have to be very careful in what you are saying without truly knowing what you are talking about. I learned my lessions in the past and that is why I am still studing everyday.

For your information, this pig dragon was authenticated by Gu Fang as genuine. Now of course we can all argue that Gu Fang can be wrong and if you pay him a fee he may authentic anything including your pig dragon.

However, please allow me to ask you two questions:

(1) Do you truly believe that you know more about jades than Gu Fang and you are more well known and respected than him?

(2) If the answers are NO, then would you send your pig dragon to him and see what he will say about it?

Well, if it comes back as "genuine" then at least we will now know that may be you do know what you are talking about, at least pertaining to the authenticity of this HS pig dragon.

Thanks.

Bill

Dear Bill/Pipane

The range of Hongshan culture is 4700-2900 BC, the time of this culture is too long, and we do not have samples from excavation that can arrange the development of form/trend of Hongshan pig dragon step by step from time to time as of 4700 to 2900 BC. And the carving technique is various as well as the tools made of bone, bamboo, wood, hard stone to copper and early bronze, which was up to the carver to pick one...all take it all.

**Hongshan clan they were an early agriculture society, and no refridgerator to keep food, they had to spend daily life to find food, and salt, smoke their food for long winter to come. The Shaman had to find the way to cure decease..they were not carving jade as a career!**

That flat coiled turtoise with carapice pendent is a calcified nephrite with yellow light from museum display box shed on it. The ivory will not have corrosive part like that one at the end of carapice.

About your green pigdragon.

The first picture is wet with vaseline, not original lustre from authentic Hongshan craftsmanship. Stone and style is typical from eBay, Alibaba and your soulmate's Hongshan jade from gumball machine website...recent made actually...why they always have rusty brown patch?????

Authentic Hongshan jade is sparkling..shinning like a star....your sense will know...but not that one you have shown here...Because "I said so!".

By the way, the form is very nice, I like it.

Have fun
Anita

Anita:

I agree that you do know about jades especially dynasty jades, therefore you do not need to prove to me that you also know about Hongshan jades.

I hope you do understand that Vaseline cannot make a jade carving shine no matter how much you would pile on it. I am afraid you have the same mistaken idea like David in Chicochai in that he believes every single authentic Hongshan jade carvings had been cleaned and waxed so that they all appear to be in pristine condition.

The luster of a Hongshan jade carving, is not the result of vaseline, or waxing, but the result of superb polishing skills employed on superb jade material.

Luster alone would not prove a HS piece is authentic, one must examine the carving techniques used on it in order to be sure, unfortunately low resolution pictures such those that were allowed to be posted in this forum will never be able to show if a piece is genuine Hongshan or not.

B

Shining like a star!!!!!

Yea, but is it real Hongshan?

Dear Bill

Of course it surely is.

Have fun
Anita

the HS jade posted looks authentic, I find it very interesting. HS carving "spirit", very nice design and baojiang. Rmq the double attribute (human and bird) foetus that is often seen in HS carving.

great...Thanks

By the way I get my camera back, I will be able to post new amazing stuffs and continue the "old turquoise" debate...very soon

See you soon on your forum too!

Pipane

Sorry for the late reaction, I recall now what material this piece is made of...

Anita, check the hardness of this piece, I know this material, it should be very soft, translucence is (should) be poor, that's a material fakers use. The style (to the opposite of my previous statement) is suspect, the back hole aspect doesn't look natural (see it is not "used", instead surface around it has been polished: a mistake from the faker), also too much angles in carving to be authentic, the noze in particular...too long...

1)-it would have been very difficult to "carve" it out (just not rational and too difficult)

2)such part would have been more easily eroded with time even more in case of a soft material

more remarks:
-the lower eye carving is wrong
-light reflect in the carved lines looks suspect too (just very close but not quite that. that's the point of using soft material to fake old jade...it is very easy to make up the patina/...)

PS. often one needs to "study" some time a piece to confirm/ invalid a judgment...especially when doubt remains, but at the end a careful analysis should do it.

PPS. Would you reveal here where you bought it from? I am sure it would help confirm the above...

Regards,

good hunt!

Pipane

Because you said so?

Or?

I guess that would make Pipan's piece(s) authentic too because he said so also.

B

Dear Bill

It depends upon the experience of the collectors whose opinion they want to believe in, but it seems to be very different between you said so, and me and Pipane said so...

I said as I saw.

--------------
Dear Pipane

This zoomorphic is a combination of wings of cicada + head of magpie + coil fetus (or foetus) depicts resurrection after the rotten body of the death was re-born, and then transform to the bird flying to heaven.

The death transformed to bird then flying to heaven was said in The Zhou Li. Zhou Li was copied some texts from the Shang, Shang copied from the Xia, Xia copied from the Neolithic. Then Zhou li was burnt by The First Empeoror of Qin who unified China. Finally, Zhou Li was re-written in the Western Han, and this concept was then said in the Tang Dynasty poem, "Chang Hen Ge"(Song of Eternal Lament) by Bai Ju Yi (772AD to 846AD). The Song of Eternal Lament praised the eternal love between Emperor Xuanzong in flourishing Tang and his beloved concubine Yang (Yang Guifei), the word "Guifei" was used as a title of Concubine of the First Rank". The poem is about the journey of the Taoist Priest to visit Concubine Yang in the Land of the Death, in the West, and the romance of Emperor Emperor Xuan Zong of the Tang Dynasty and his beloved dead concubine.

"They promised that if they flew among the heaven it would be as bird sharing a single pair of wings."
---------------

About the bird, it is possibly a magpie.

Magpie, a Symbol of Happiness

Magpie is a symbol of happiness in Chinese culture. The singing of a magpie foretells happiness and good luck. That's why it is called 'Happy Magpie' by Chinese people. The Manchu minority in Northeast China even regards magpies as sacred birds. Legends concerning magpies are found in the historical records about Manzhu.

One day, Fokulon, the goddess from heaven, and her two sisters were playing beside the lake when a beautiful magpie with a red fruit in its mouth flew above them. The magpie dropped the fruit. Fokulon picked it up and ate it. Some months later, she gave birth to a boy, named Bukulirongshun. He was the forefather of Manchu minority.

Bukulirongshun and his descendants were all heroic and skilled fighters. The neighboring tribes all thought of them as a potential threat. They formed an alliance and decided to wipe out the rising tribe. A boy named Fancha escaped the slaughter. The slaughterers discovered this and tried to catch him. Fancha kept running until dusk fell. The boy was almost caught when a magpie lighted on his head. He stood motionless so that he looked more like a tree trunk in the dim field. The hunters did mistake him for a trunk and ran on in another direction. It was the magpie that saved Fancha, the only survivor of the tribe in the genocide.

Fancha was grateful to the bird and believed it to be something sacred, who brought him happiness and good fortune. Generation to generation, Manchu people consider magpies a symbol of happiness and luck. In 1644, a Manchu man became China's emperor and established the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). Since Manchu culture has been assimilated into Han culture, the belief that magpies bring happiness is now shared by most Chinese people.

Written by our column writer Ye Qinfa.

Source:
http://chineseculture.about.com/library/weekly/aa081000a.htm

---------------
About Manchus are possibly descendants of the Hongshan Clan.

�The greater Manchurian ethno historical sphere of the Xianbei-Tungus, that includes the Korean Peninsula as an extension of the central Manchuria towards the sea, has formed one of the three major sub-regions of East Asia, sharing intimate histories with strong cultural affinities. The proto-Altaic speech community of Xianbei-Tungus had shared the Neolithic Hongshan culture, as well as the tradition of incised pottery and broad-bladed bronze dagger. The Mongolian steppe has enough water to sustain some vegetation and animal life, and was the home of Xiongnu, the ancestor of the Turks, who led a rather tough life of hunting, fishing, nomadic stock-raising, and patch farming to survive on those harsh wind-swept forests and steppes, frozen in winter and scorched for a few weeks of summer. The occupation of the Xiongnu homeland by the Xianbei people of western Manchuria occurred the first time in 93-180 as an after math to the disintegration of Maodun�s empire, the second time in 402-552 by the Rourans, who were classified as the Donghu, and the third time by the Shiwei-Mongols, a branch of the Qidan-Xianbei, that would last until today, resulting in an ethnonymic unification of the entire �Mongolian� steppe but blurring the ethnic and linguistic demarcation on the steppe. The Tripolar East Asia.�
Source:-
A Tripolar Approach to East Asian History, Chapter 2, page 3.
----------------------------------
About Hongshan and Manchu was said by Curator of National Palace Museum Taipei that the Hongshan jade hoof looks like the end of Manchu sleeve, and Manchus are descendants of Hongshan clan. I�m sorry that this text from the jade exhibition of NPM was deleted from their website.

Have fun
Anita Mui

A while ago you show us some serpentine pieces with severe corrosions that you believed to be authentic Hongshan jades. Neither Diasia and I were very impressed with them. Not too long ago you picked on some of Pipane's HS pieces by posting pictures of large "donuts". Then all of a sudden you became an expert in Hongshan jades and even laughed at those jade pieces posted in Diasai's web site even though he has been spending a lot more time than you in the studying of Hongshan jades.

Then now you posted an interesting Hongshan combo piece that was made of cheap and easily obtained greenish-yellow serpentine/bowenite with sharp edges around the two holes of the pig dragon and called it authentic? Have you compared your piece to those beautifuly pristine "yellow" Hongshan jade with truly "gem luster"? May be then you would understand how they should look like. It is almost like comparing a cubic zirconia (your piece) with a piece of genuine diamond (authentic Hongshan piece).

Please be serious. Have you even spent any time in the studying of any unique carving marks found on authentic Hongshan jades? Do you see any of them on your "authentic" piece?

Just by saying "Anita said so" and therefore it would be an authentic Hongshan piece and then posted it later to sell at your site as such will simply not do. Why is Pipane trying so hard in promoting his "authentic" Hongshan jade piece in this forum recently? May be he is having the same difficulty in proving their authenticities too?

The real question one should ask is:

Why some people are so lucky in finding all these "authentic" Neolithic and/or archaic jade pieces in prices that are so much lower than those that are auctioned by large auction houses, time and time again?

Will anybody believe in such blind LUCK?

I rest my case.

Bill

The following is a link I had previosly posted and was recently posted by another jade pal in another forum:

http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/?currentPage=4

It will show how some of the authentic Hongshan jades should look like.

B

Dear Bill

If your soul mate is so good at what he is doing, pls explain the picture of comparison below.

Is it forgery and fraud to the public? or it is truly authentic that it's a rarity condition that natural stone / excavated piece do not have that, but only his thing has?

If he perform SG test on all the things he has, he will learn a lot that he was tricked....so far..he's never done so!

I will apologize if it is truly authentic Chinese turquoise.

Have fun
Anita Mui

The items in question has never been declared as turquoise on our website, on contrary, the items are described as follows:

turquoise blue color, material unknown.

Thank you
Diasai

Dear Diasai

The picture of comparison was magically deleted as requested by you.
---------------------
As said and possibly rewrote in your website:-

turquoise blue color, material unknown!!!

But possibly Hongshan Culture????

I have no idea that Hongshan clan had technology to dye howlite.

So..you know Prof.Gou Dashun, Hongshan hoofs have holes and thickness of hoofs don't matter yet? Your long years of study is questionable.

Have fun
Anita

P.S. soon after I have mentioned your expertise in this post, my forum was spammed....what a unfortunate coincidence.

Anita:

To disagree with the authenticity of another collector's jade collection is your prerogative, however to accuse them of "spamming" your site without any concrete evidence is truly deplorable.

Just like I have been trying to advise you previously, it would not be just your expertise in jade that will earn you respect or accolades from other jade collectors, but it is how much you will respect other collectors and treat them as your "equals" no matter how much you would disgree with them in jade that will earn you such respect. You should separate "jade" from people and avoid your believing in that just because other collectors do not agree with you in jade, then they must be "despicable" people who will deserve your contempts and irks and therefore giving you the right to insult them.

May be you should ban all collectors whom you do not like including Diasai from your web site then you would never have any problems with your forum again.

B

Dear Bill

The spammer is located in Germany, the spam started as from May 25, 2009.

It's very calm and solemn private forum because there's no headache, misleaded, confused, and funny long post(s) there.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Anita, I am very sorry for that your forum has been spamed as I stated in my last e-mail to you.
I have nothing to do with it and I would never do such thing.

Diasai

I read with interest all your comments about Hongshan jades when I first started collecting archaic jades a couple of years ago. It appears that there are always ego and ignorance involved in all parties. Although Anita is quite knowledgeable she seems to think that she knows everything, which she does not. For example, she said that Hongshan jades should always have the shine, which is not true. It so happens that most of the well-known ones are well-cleaned and well-shined. Anyone should know that no matter how well made an object is made and if it is buried, even under hospitable conditions, for thousands of years, it WILL deteriorate. It is easy to imagine that not all burial locations in the Liaoning region is hospitable.

I have an analogy for all your conversations. It is like 3 blind persons standing beside an elephant, each touching the trunk, leg and tail and proclaiming that it is a bamboo, tree, and stick. In fact, it is an elephant!

I decided to take a different route. Since I live in NE USA, I decided to visit the musuems in Washington, Philadelphia, New York, and also San Francisco, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Shanghai and Guangzhou (NanYue Tomb) to see what archaic jades are exhibited. I have also personally touch and feel archaic (albeit mostly Shang) jades that are recently sold in Christies (Sackler Collection, March, 2009). I met with museum people in the field from Chinese University of Hong Kong, Princeton, etc. I also researched published reports of excavated jades for comparables. I invested a lot of time and think it is well worth it. Finally, I would suggest all of those interested to get the following books:

1. Chinese Jades: Selected Articles from Orientations 1983-1996 (SAO) (NK 5750.1 C6 C3675, 1997)

2. The Complete Collection of Jades Unearthed in China (CCJUC), (NK 5750.2, C6, Z28, 2005) Volume II, is for Liaoning Province.

About the green Hongshan jade, I think it is a recent copy and it is a subjective opinion. There are 2 reasons. First, the carving is not smooth, i.e., stiff. Second, it does appear not show any age.

As for the first jade, I am not quite sure.

Dear Sean

Bill's Chulong is surely a repro, as I said before, the lustre is not right, the first picture is after oiling, the other 2 pictures are before oiling which would be the original polished surface of the piece. All are wrong, the material is typical fake from the street market, the craftsmanship is easily simple..no spirit in it.

I do not know it all, I'm still learning. I have all the books you said, but the Orientation Articles were written for years, what in there have to be updated.

I do not want to turn this forum to "Hongshan Forum" like other forum spamming by 21th Century Hongshan Clan...

As I said over and over agian and again...Hongshan clan is a small community who happended to carved jade based on their faith.

The things that made from faith have spirit in it, unlike the commercial one / replica / repro / fake...when you see the real thing your sense will tell you.

In Hong Kong museum, we have less than 10 pieces.

Keep collecting clean and clear translucent jade of any period of Chinese History without obvious ageing signs (avoid lumps and whitening) .....you'll be safe!

Have fun
anita

Anita:

First of all, that is not my zhulong though I would love to own and study it.

I do not know how many times I must tell anybody that if you believe you can tell any Hongshan jade carving is authentic by looking at their low-resolution pictures alone, that you are kidding yourself. Even with high resolution pictures or the chance to examine it personally, it is still difficult to say for sure how authentic a piece is.

Also another factor you must consider is, it is almost impossible to capture the "actual" looks of any Hongshan pieces unless you are a professional photographer. The luster of a Hongshan piece will often blind the camera and you cannot use flashlight in capturing it. It looks different if its picture is taken outside under naural sunlight or inside with regular lamps. Even with full-spectrum lights, it is not easy to capture its natural luster.

The Hongshan piece posted by you here is definitely a "copy". The edges of its holes look too sharp and look to be made with modern tools; its large central hole looks like it was drilled from one direction; its material looks to be cheap serpentine and its luster is subpar. In short, no way a genuine Hongshan jade can look like that. Now, of course to attribut it with such a poor low resolution picture will be crazy and it may be indeed a museum picture so you cannot post any high resolution pictures here.

Is it?

B

Dear Bill

My magpie is yellow nephrite with SG 2.99 ,and it's already sold recently.

Have fun
Anita

A magpie? Hongshan? Manchuria?

Yellow nephrite? Looks more like bowenite to me.
Yellow nephrite jade is very very rare and commands a high premium. Yours looks more like the type of cheaper brownish nephrite jade or greenish yellow bowenite jade the Chinese will label as "Qing" jade to me. Since it can pass the scratch test, therefore scratch test is useless. However, genuine Hongshan nephrite jade will have a highness from 6-6.5 Not too many bowenite can pass the 6.0 hardness. Even if it is nephrite, its color is just not vivid or bright (yellow) enough to convince me it is genuine Hongshan. I had bought a Hongshan jade bird from one of the "forum" jade dealer for $55 one time and its material looks almost like that of your magpie and it was indeed made of nephrite too. Therefore nephrite alone would not mean anything.

The jade material of your magpie also looks quite different than those found on authentic Hongshan jade carvings. I believe the buyer should send it to Gu Fang for authentication and shares his appraisal result with us. At least if Gu Fang will authenticate it, then I believe it may be a good piece although you seem to have double standard regarding Gu Fang's COA.

Sean:

While I do admire your diligence in examining archaic jades in U.S. and oversea museums and those in auction houses, I am afraid you may be one of the "blind persons" you are referring to.

You see while I some times did disagree with Anita, however, it is really not about her expertise in jades, especially in dynasty jades, rather it is her arrogance sometimes exhibited toward other jade collectors.

In that regard, I do not believe you know anything about Hongshan jades, and not even archaic jades. The reason I am saying that is not trying to offend you but you seem to belong to the school of collectors who believe that since Hongshan jades are Neolithic jades and were 3,000 - 5,000 years old, therefore they must have weathered surfaces because according to you "it WILL deteriorate. It is easy to imagine that not all burial locations in the Liaoning region is hospitable."

You further said, "she (Anita) said that Hongshan jades should always have the shine, which is not true"

and you also seem to believe that for a Hongshan jade carving to be authentic it must be "smooth" and it must show age. (I have no idea what you meant by smooth, by the way.)

It is truly sad that the only Hongshan jade references you seem to have are those two you have listed and if you really want to learn more about Hongshan jades I would like to recommend the following books to you:

http://www.paragonbook.com/html/powersearch/searchresults.cfm

(1) 红山文化古玉鉴定 徐强
Hongshan wenhua guyu jianding [Appraising Ancient Jades of the Hongshan Culture]
Xu, Qiang Item # 34809 ISBN 9787801428653 Price: $95.00

(2) 红山文化古玉精华: 听雨堂收藏 徐强
Hongshan Wenhua Guyu Jinghua: Tianyutang Shoucang Hongshan Antiquated Jade: Tingyutang Treasures
Xu, Qiang Item # 31770 ISBN 7801584376 Price: $125.00

(3) 中国古玉珍藏 徐强
Zhongguo guyu zhencang China Ancient Jade Collection
Xu, Qiang Item # 33613 ISBN 7801586263 Price: $60.00

(4) 红山文化玉器新品新鉴 孙守道 & 刘淑娟
Hongshan wenhua yuqi xinpin xinjian The Discovery of New Type of Hongshan Culture Jade Carvings
Sun, Shoudao & Liu, Shujuan Item # 34009 ISBN 9787807025306 Price: $145.00

For more Hongshan jade books, go to:

http://www.paragonbook.com/html/powersearch/searchresults.cfm

*********************************************
You see when you stated that,

"It so happens that most of the well-known ones are well-cleaned and well-shined."

I know right away that you have no idea what you are talking about in regard to Hongshan jades and you have the misconception that all those authentic Hongshan jades are so lustrous they must be cleaned and polished, just like another jade pal in Chicochai in believing that all these authentic Hongshan jades must be repolished and waxed.

It is very unfortunate that you believe no Hongshan jades can look that "shinny" because they were buried underground for so long.

You must understand that deterioration of jade carvings have nothing to do with their ages, but rather the conditions of their burial environment and the quality of their jade material.

The majority of Hongshan jade carvings were made of superb nephrite jade and bowenite that have very high hardness and S.G. Most Hongshan tombs were either found in high ground, the midst of a slope, or most of the deceased were buried in almost air-tight stone coffins, therefore, most jade carvings were buried in very dry environment. Even if they were buried in semi-wet environment, because of their quality jade structure and hard surface, unless there were cracks on them, the chances of their surfaces of being corroded were very low.

Therefore, what Anita said about the "shine" or what I called the "gem luster" of authentic Hongshan jades were indeed correct and what you believe not possible was incorrect.

Secondly, you had the same misconception like many other jade collectors in that you believe the "shine" of a jade carving was the result of "cleaning", "polishing", "shinning" (do you mean waxing?).

It is indeed true that many archaic jade carvings such as those of Shang or Zhou dynasty would indeed have very corrosive surface, heavy weathering and not shinny at all. But you must understand the reason for that is because many of them were not made of quality nephrite jades, but instead were made of Xiu-yuan jade (serpentine) or Dushan jade (feldspar) or other local soft stones that were not nephrite jades. They had lower hardness and S.G. and therefore very susceptible to their burial environment. They were also buried in much more wet environment, than that of Hongshan tombs.

The "gem luster" or "shine" of a jade carving, has nothing to do with how much it was polished or waxed. No amount of waxing or polishing (with modern tools) can result in the type of luster found on authentic Hongshan jades. Look at some recent jadeite carvings, it has this type of glassy luster but not the "shine" like Hongshan jades. Look at some genuine Qing dynasty Hetian jade carvings, they do have nice satin luster but still not the type of gem luster found in Hongshan jades. Why?

It is because superb luster found on a Hongshan jade carvings is the result of two things:

(1) Superb jade material;

(2) Superb polishing skill of the Hongshan jade carvers by using animal pelt with animal fat in painstakingly spending years in polishing such jade item. Such polishing skills were not matched in later dynasties. That is why you find such "shine" on them and that is why so many genuine Hongshan jades appear to be in pristine conditions with such gem luster. Failure to understand that you would never be able to accept what most authentic Hongshan jades would look like. (*Now of course, there do have authentic Hongshan jades that do not possess this gem luster but with weathered surface because they might be made of more inferior material or their burial environment may be indeed much humid. However, it is almost rare for any Hongshan jade carvings to have chicken-bone white color. If you see one, do not touch it. They are almost all fakes.)

Anita knows far more about jades than you and although you may be indeed correct in pointing out that "she does not know everything about jade". Indeed none of us do. Indeed you are correct in pointing out most of us did appear to be arrogant since none of us really know too much about jade.

Unfortunately you have just included yourself in one of the "ignorants" you have labeled us because in your message you have clearly shown that you really have no ideas in what you are talking about, especially in regard to Hongshan jades.

Well, do not feel so bad though, because I was once like that too and still am sometimes when I got rubbed the wrong way or when another jade collector claims they know so much about Hongshan jades and other do not know anything.

That is why I am attempting to study the tool marks or carving techniques found on genuine Hongshan jade carving and I recommend the following link to you:

http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.php?forum=1&id=34596

in which I attempted to discuss the unique types of carving techniques and tool marks found on genuine Hongshan jades and they are not my findings but that of Hongshan jade experts in China. May be next time when you get another chance to examine any genuine Hongshan jade carvings you will bring a 10x loupe and see if you can see those types of tool marks and come back here to share with us.

If I may have offended you or sound arrogant, I must apologize but I am afraid your message might have just rubbed me the wrong way and may be you should apologize to Anita and other jade collectors because you appear to be just what you have criticized us - arrogant, ignorant and blind.

Cheers.

Bill

Dear Bill

What the heaven are you talking about?

I have no heart to say anything in another topic about lustre of Ming Dynasty jade Ki cencer, you said that polished surface of Ming jade would be. Because it is not my job to go down there and clean up all the mess you did.

In my conclusion:-

Apart from burial environment, the original jade works of the period would be:-

Shang to Zhou jade are all shiny, Spring and autumn + Warring States jade are little bit better polished surface than the Shang and Zhou, but not glassy like of the Han. Ming jade is glossy (medium to high polish but not like of the Han), as well as of the Qing (jadeite is not included).

The glassy shiny polished surface as of Han found in later period jade works are considered as modern to yesterday made.

You may search Christie's website for Shang and Zhou jade and tell me which one is "not shiny"...that one is a "fake".

On the other hand, low, medium or high degree of polish was up to the people who order to made jade for themself, but it must follow the trend of the period, the style and motifs/reliefs must have good meaning otherwise the artesan will not do it, and the law and moral will punish people who made jade work to the bad iconic meaning.

Have fun
Anita Mui

2.

I guess jade collecting can get very emotional rubbing us at the core. BTW, thanks Bill for the additional references and I have several others as well which I did not include in my first post.
The old dealer, who is also my dear friend, always tells me that everyone has an opinion. When I ask him if the jade is of the period he always tells me what he knows to the best of his knowledge; he's only 70+ y.o. and the jades are, if of the period, over thousands of years old. At the NY Met, they have symposiums that experts (including museum curators and reknown scholars) argue and disagree about every conceivable type of art objects.
I have a Ph.D. from one of the top universities in US, albeit not in art history or Chinese literature. One thing that I learned from many years of education is that any type of good study should be rational/scientific with as little emotion as possible. It definitely helps to have some good judgment as well. In the study of Hongshan jades, or any archaic jades, the best start is always look at well-documented excavated jades. The obvious reasons are that they are good points of references for general characteristics, such as type of jades, carvings, forms, and sizes. Of course, one can always argue that it's possible to find jades that have no excavated references. I have some of those myself.
Perhaps, I was not clear with my earlier e-mail because I wasn't quite sure it'll be posted. Let me clarify again. Based on my experience, most archaic jades are very well polished, albeit not perfectly symmetrical. The reason is that jades are very valuable materials in the Chinese culture and it is even more important than gold during the Han Dynasty (evidenced by King Nanyue using a big chunk of gold to clip a broken piece of small jade) and, I would imagine, labor cost is almost free since most of the workers (during Shang dynasty, for example) are slaves. The reason for not being symmetrical is that the people long ago do not have modern precise machines. Of course, one could point to specific exceptions of poorly carved jades, e.g. some the Zhou Dynasty jades, but it is generally a good rule.

Another point, I want to make is that I admit that I am not as good as Anita in archaic jade knowledge. However, I may know something that she does not and that's why we have such a forum.

Based on what I said so far, I have a couple of points to illustrate using Anita's example of Hongshan jade. I think Anita's jade would meet that requirements of many but not all experts. For example, you will see the shine or smoothness of the jade, it's age indicated by the darks spots, and possibly form. The only thing I am not sure of is that there are no close excavated comparables that I am aware of. As Professor Jenny So of Chinese University of Hong Kong told me that one cannot authenticate an archaic jade by looking at the picture alone. However, most would agree that one can rule out obviously fake ones such as those that I have seen for sale on the internet sites.

Finally, I think this forum could be much improved if we do not use inflamatory words, such as arrogant, ignorant and blind (see title). It is also obvious that Bill is extremely knowledgeable in this area as well. However, we all don't know everything.

Sean:

You must misunderstand me in that you believe I was using inflammatory words in the title of may message, I was simply quoting your message:

"It appears that there are always ego and ignorance involved in all parties." (ignorant)

Did you not say that ALL of us could be ignorant?
and did I not agree with you because I could be very ignorant too.

"I have an analogy for all your conversations. It is like 3 blind persons...."

It does sound like you are calling us blind persons, are you? Now who are the three people you referred to?

Now the arrogant part - you came on so strong and so freely criticized other jade collectors that I do believe you are no different than any of us - arrogant! I also confessed sometimes I was guilty as charged - being arrogant.

Therefore I apolgize if I might have offended you with my title which is simply not intended to be inflammatory at all but in simply quoting what your belief in what many jade collectors are:

"Arrogant, ignorant and blind."

May be I misunderstood the tone of your first message but that is how it came across to me.

Cheers and hope there is no hard feeling.

By the way, did you not notice Anita's title of her message:

"A confused naughty boy."

I wonder who or what he refers to. It sounds very condescending and very confused in her part. I will not even bother to respond to her.

I agree with you that she is not really a "know-it-all" in jade although she surely believe she is.

Thanks.

Bill

I started collecting archaic jades, among other Chinese antiques, a few years back and let me tell you- it's an expensive hobby in terms of time and money. A few words of wisdom for new collectors based on my own experience. Like everyone else, antique collecting involves paying tuition, i.e., buying fakes. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done like I prescribe below:
1) Unless you plan to spend only a small sum of money for fun that you can afford to lose, do NOT buy any archaic jade as they are usually neither archaic nor jade. For beginning collectors start by visiting as many museums as you can that display the type of material that you are interested in buying. Go to any good university libraries (i.e., most major state university libraries, U. Penn, Harvard U. etc.) and read as much as you can on your topic of interest. It can be as much fun as collecting. I am lucky enough to be able to do both of the above, but only after having spent a considerable sum on not so good stuff. The internet information while useful has a lot of incorrect/misleading information. If you can, try to meet up with knowledgeable people in the fields. Again, I was lucky enough to meet with and/or talk to top people in Princeton, Chinese University of Hong Kong, Freer Museum in Washington, DC, Christie�s and Sotheby�s. One takeaway lesson is that REAL archaic jades are very rare. One word of wisdom: most, especially museum curators, would not believe that collectors could get hold of even a real one unless it's from the two major auction houses or well-known collections such as Sackler�s. Even then, they say it's no guarantee that they are real.
2) My best experiences are actually visiting the King Nanyue museum in Guangzhou and the museums around the country (US) and China. If possible, get someone more knowlegeable than you but with similar interest to go with you. After seeing and carefully studying the real excavated archaic jades, one can see that most, if not all, the jades offered in E-bay and internet are fakes. It is a waste of time to look for real jades on E-bay. However, I use E-bay and the internet to help me by preventing me from buying fakes.
3) I was lucky enough to get my jades vetted by a Beijing jade dealer, who now lives in US, with tens of years of experience. Although, none of the experts (museum people included) taught me exactly how to separate the fakes from real ones, I managed to gather quite a lot of information from all of them. Although there are exceptions, the following are good rules to follow:
a) Most archaic jades are very well polished, albeit not exactly symmetrical. The reason is that jades are very valuable materials in the Chinese culture and it is even more important than gold during the Han Dynasty (evidenced by King Nanyue using a big chunk of gold to clip a broken piece of jade) and, I would imagine, labor cost is almost free since most of the workers (during Shang dynasty, for example) are slaves. Most e-Bay jades that are fakes because the pieces are not well polished (e.g., grooves or indented areas have dusty look). The reason for not being symmetrical is that the people long ago do not have modern precise machines. Of course, one could point to specific exceptions of poorly carved authentic archaic jades, e.g. some the Zhou Dynasty jades, but it is generally a good rule.
b) Besides visiting the museums, I also visited the 'antique shops' in Hong Kong and China (Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Shanghai, etc.). Most, if not all, sell fakes. Do not waste your time to go there hoping to find a genuine piece at a low price unless you only plan to go there for fun and experience. Unless you know some reputable people, have a good working relationship with them, and willing to spend huge sums of money (i.e., US$1,000s and usually much more), forget about trying to get a good archaic jade. Just imagine, why would the Chinese sell you a piece for a few hundred dollars or less, when they have to fly over to NY, pay for their hotel stays, and buy those archaic jades from Christie's for tens of thousands of dollars and, sometimes, more and sell you for much less in China.
c) If you have money, start by collecting jades with comparables (i.e., those sold at Christie's or Sotheby's or shown in reputable books and magazines, such as by Salmony and Orientations). It is expensive and this is by no means a guarantee that you get real ones but, at least, helps to prevent you from buying disastrous or embarrassing fake ones. By comparables, I mean jades with similar designs/patterns and carvings to that of excavated jades and/or are currently in museum collections. This is the gold standard for all museum people, Christie's, and Sotheby's. It should be similar but not identical; if so, it�s most probably a fake. Remember, in ancient times there are no production lines and all art are crafted by �sifus� or �master carvers�. Hence, they may have similar motifs and forms, they all are one of a kind.
d) Always ask the seller for the source of the jades. At first, I was annoyed when the people at Christie's and Sotheby's asked the same question. Upon further thought, it makes sense. All antiques must come from somewhere. Of course, you must evaluate the authenticity of the answer, which is mostly 'from my uncle, aunts, and family'. Then ask how they get their stuff and ask yourself it the answer is plausible. The ideal situation is that they have evidence of the pieces, i.e., published records or dated receipts. Although, it may seem counter-intuitive, an expensive piece of jade does not guarantee it's real and an inexpensive one does not imply it's a fake. There are many reasons for this phenomenom.
e) All archaic jades should have a patina or 'Baojiang'. It is only with experience of seeing real ones that one can get a good, albeit subjective, opinion. I was lucky enough to see the excavated ones and 'touch and feel' those sold recently in Christies (Sackler's collection of mostly Shang jades). The reason is that these jades are buried for thousands of years and no matter how ideal the conditions are, they are subject to alterations. This skill can only be acquired by experience.
f) For a good start try to get hold of and read the two items below. The second item is a great multi-volume set of books.
1. Chinese Jades: Selected Articles from Orientations 1983-1996 (SAO) (NK 5750.1 C6 C3675, 1997)
2. The Complete Collection of Jades Unearthed in China (CCJUC), (NK 5750.2, C6, Z28, 2005)
g) Most archaic jades are small, generally less than 6 inches, and a large majority are less than 3 inches. The reason is that in ancient times, jades are very difficult to find, and they are usually found on river beds. This also explains why jade is so valuable.
h) Don�t get dishearten if an �expert� tells you that your jade is a fake. It�s an opinion and I can tell you that different experts have different opinions. I have come across many who know very little also claim to be �experts�. In my experience, the best experts are those who have systematically studied and personally excavated these jades and/or are affiliated with reputable museums.

Sean:

I have to admit that those tips posted by you here are geat tips and if somebody had written these tips before I started collecting jades I would have saved a lot of money. This seems to come from your valuable collecting experience but I must caution you that many of the members in this or other forum have been collecting jades for years and therefore your advice may come across in a wrong way to them.

(1) I cannot agree with you more with this one althougha a lot of collectors still believe they can buy Neolithic or archaic jades in low prices because there are lot of graves being pillaged in China.

(2) I cannot agree with you more but once again I must caution you at one time or even now you would be able to find some authentic jades on Internet including eBay although it is indeed tough.

(3) Be very careful to learn from the same person epecially a dealer who is selling you the jades. Do you believe they would tell you that a piece they sold to your for thousands of dollars is fake? Of course there are honest jade dealers but it takes time to find and trust one. Did he offer you a no-quest-ask life-time money return guarantee for the jades you purchased from him?

(4) "Baojiang" - while many current jade experts or collectors in China did use this term in determining the authenticity of an archaic jade piece especially those of Hongshan. I must caution you that such term, "Baojaing" is a very modern jade term and I have not seen it appear in any anicent or old jade books. Therefore, you should not depend on this too much until you have researched more into exactly what this term means.

Thanks.

Bill

Bill,
Although it is still possible to pillage from tombs/graves, I think this is rare nowadays because the Chinese government is much better managed. Once a tomb is found, it's hard to hide the fact and it must be reported to the government. The site will be immediately guarded by government personnel for scientific excavation. One could get a death sentence in China for illegally selling Chinese antiques, which is a big deterrent.

Thanks for our advice on dealers. I know a famous museum curator who equate dealer with crook. However, I know my dealer for over 10 years and he is also my friend. He has a shop for over 30 years and I have met some of his customers who have bought from him for decades. Although, he is wealthy he always has an incentive to sell. That is why, I am always very cautious when I buy (remember, caveat emptor). That is, he can hold the piece for me until I finish doing my research and satisfied with it before buying. As for vetting my collection, I actually pay and independent dealer (from Beijing) to vet my collection which he hasn't seen before. He once told me that he has seen a collection that has handed down from an earlier generation, none of which is archaic as claimed. He didn't have the heart to tell the children.

Sean

Hi, Sean:

I agree with you regarding grave pillages to a certain extent. I do not really believe there were that many authentic jade carvings being stolen from ancient graves and they would be sold for "peanuts". Yes, they can be guarded by government personnel but they cannot not stop people from stealing them if they know there would be indeed "valuable jades" there. Have you not see "Hetian jade hunters" who had totally destroyed the XinJiang vicinty with their jade hunting activity and finally the government had to do something about it. When there is money, people will do anything.

I envy your having a dealer whom you can trust.

Please e-mail me (jadelover8888@yahoo.com) and let me know where the dealer is (if you do not mind) and may be if I have an opporuntiy to visit your city I can go to visit his store. I aslo would like to learn from you, if you are willing.

Thanks.

Bill

That is full of wisdom...

One remark SOMETIMES archaeologist and curators are clueless when authenticating archaic jades:

-some times because it is not their field of study, nobody can be expert in everything...

-some times because they haven't learn to differentiate real from good fakes (all they know is that piece is from that historical period because it has been found in such site). Out of this context they can make mistakes.

A good example is Song Dynasty ceramics found in Yuan Dynasty tombs...at first scientists (before lab analysis) said it is Yuan ceramics, while specialists and collectors would find it Song from experience...at the end it was of course Song Dynasty ceramics collected during Yuan Dynasty for their quality and buried during the Yuan Dynasty with other precious Yuan Dynasty ceramics...

and for jade archaeologist have proof than jade collecting had started already at the end of Neolithic time (with one tombs containing many beautiful jades from different older periods and geographical area, certainly a "dealer" and a collector!)

I must also say about point h) I don't agree :

of course expert can have different opinions on one particular piece, that's happens, but they agree on 99% of the time I can guaranty.

-There would be no market at all if age was subjective.
I can assure that if you bring a Shang Period Jade blade (as auctioned in major auction house) to any serious dealer/expert he will tell you this is a fantastic piece. PB is people don't bring such good stuff (far from it) and they don't want to realize it/admit it.

I am skeptic about the "10 experts 11 opinions" theory. I believe the first advantage is to present fake for real and pretend you ignore it.

Get many "experts" opinion on one piece is better if not necessary of course, but if one serious expert (in that particular field) says one particular piece is wrong, he usually can explain why and everybody would agree at the end...in antique jade collecting in particularly the slightest doubt means wrong.

regards,

Pipane

Pipane,
I guess you are very hung up about the '10 experts 11 opinions issue' and the 'Shang' blade. Please re-read my comments. It is supposed to be a 'joke' and a little sarcastic. I more or less agree with all your comments. Let me clarify further. What I mean is that many so-called 'experts' are not experts in my opinion. There are truly very few experts in the field of archaic jades as one cannot definitively authenticate these pieces. Like I said in my earlier comments, I have met and talked to many museum curators and experts in the field. They have a paradigm where they all more or less agree upon. For example, the 'Shang' blade that you mentioned on Christies' auction which I have seen and touch. I would say most, if not all experts, believe it's a good piece. In fact, most of the pieces that sold in the Sackler's auction would meet the requirements of most experts. The only lot which I think is questionable is the 4 rings (including the agate one). They looked too new for my taste. Even then, they sold for 10's of thousands of dollars, which I think it's mainly because it's from Sackler's collection.

My point is that there are some pieces which may be genuine but are outside the 'comfort range' of the experts because they did not meet certain criteria, such as form, patina, etc. This is where the views are divergent (e.g., the 4 rings that I mentioned). Another possible reason is that a genuine piece has a form which has never been documented (i.e., no excavated examples).

I also agree with your point of experts in the field. I invited and had dinner with a Harvard Ph.D., who does field research in ancient chinese civilization, including Hongshan culture. She actually excavates the pieces and studies the culture. After showing her a few of my Hongshan pieces, she told me that she cannot tell me which are real or fake! The reason is that all she sees are real ones and her job is to study the civilization not differentiating the real ones from fakes. BTW, she is a reknown scholar who is wide-published and gives lectures around the world. My point is that different people have different objectives and different experience.

Sean

I agree with you.

Would you share one or two HS jade with me?

pipane@gmail.com.

regards,

Pipane

Are these 3 pig dragons cleaned, "shinned" or waxed? Are they smooth enough to be genuine pig dragons?

Dear Sean

Quote from you "albeit not perfectly symmetrical".

"symmetrical = well-proportioned, as a body or whole; regular in form or arrangement of corresponding parts."

That is the word I really want to explian how to notice fake ancient jade in the market and Chicco, Pinocchio & friends Collection, because they use silk screen to print the design on the surface of flat piece of cut stone then carve them....that's why all the pieces, motifs, engraved lines are "symmetrically" match each other perfectly, with the other similar pieces, as well as on the same piece itself.

Thanks & have fun
Anita Mui

The 3 pig dragons point to the difficulty of collecting. While all 3 appears to fit my descriptions of archaic jades that I mentioned, possibly the first one or two is Hongshan, while the third is not. The reason is that the form and the patina are not correct. Remember, it's just my opinion since you asked. Please do not get emotional.

Sean:

I apologize if I might have come across to you as too harsh and/or arrogant because the more I read about your messages the more I realize that you do know about jades including Hongshan jades. I actually quoted what you said about collecting archaic jades in the Chicochai forum as advice for another new jade collector who just posted one of the "Han" jade bi she bought for $80 from an eBay dealer there. At least you do not appear as arrogant as some of the other jade collectors after I had read more of your posted messages and understand where you are coming from. Therefore, please accept my sincere apology.

I actually do not own any of the three pig dragons and therefore I would not feel offended. I was amazed that Pipane automatically thought I must have owned the third and last piece because it appears to be the lesser of the three pieces.

There lies the problem in authenticating any Hongshan pieces and may explain the vast price differences of "authentic" Hongshan jade pieces, from the average of $1,000-4,000 per jade bird, pig dragons that were authenticated by Gu Fang, to some of the middle priced ones in the $ 15,000 -30,000 price range, all the way to those that were authenticated and auctioned by large auction houses for over $ 100,000 (including those owned and authenticated by Xu Qing). One must ask why there are such large differences in their prices?

The first green coiled dragon is currently owned by the British Museum and that is the type of pig dragon I would love to own but do not believe I can afford. I love the "bao-jiang" found on its surface and its "fluid" lines, smooth/pristine surface.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/asia/j/jade_coiled_dragon.aspx

The second pig dragon is a known excavated piece but its picture is not that great and therefore it would be easily be mistakened as a lesser piece. However, many jade collectors including both you and Pipane plus quite a few at Chicochai had picked it as genuine. Good eyes.

Now the interesting part is the third pig dragon. If somebody had posted it here I would probably also called it a "copy" too and it might very well be. The only reason I posted it here was it was indeed authenticated by Gu Fang as an authentic Hongshan pig dragon. Since I do not own this piece, that is no purpose for me to lie about it. I would try to post the COA by Gu Fang as soon as I can locate it.

That brings up several interesting questions:

(1) One collector at the other forum absoutley would not believe any genuine Hongshan jade pieces could look so pristine like the first green coiled dragon posted here. He believed HS pieces like that were cleaned, repolished and waxed. He believed any genuine Hongshan jade carvings must have severe weathering found on their surfaces and he posted two of his best pig dragons as examples of geunine HS pig dragons.

His comments to all these Hongshan pieces posted on Xu Qing's first book was: (see link at:
http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2008/4/6/from-pig-to-dragon-neolithic-hongshan-jades.html)

"I would not swop those putative Hongshan pieces for any of the many equivalent ones in my collection, as I believe (even taking account of the poor photographs) they are inferior, and much less likely to be authentic."

His opinion for all three of these pig dragons posted by me was:

"Answers: No, no no and no. I don't like any of them. Doesn't mean I believe they are all definitely all fake, but some certainly are. "

His opinion regarding genuine Hongshan acutally represent quite a few of Hongshan jade collectors' opinions in what genuine Hongshan jades should look like.

(2) Should we trust any jade expert's apprisals including those of Gu Fang?

A while ago, one jade collector bought a large green jade disc (posted in this forum) and he sent to Gu Fang for authentication and it came back as an authentic Shang dynasty piece. Anita congratulated him for being so lucky because Anita seemed to have a lot of faith with Gu Fang's professional opinions in jades. I believe one of the AAF moderators cautioned us to be careful in accepting any jade experts's appraisals including those of Gu Fang.

The jade collector who did not like any of the pig dragons I had posted (see (1)) also commented the followings regard to both Gu Fang and Guo Dashun:

"Finally, there is I fear something slightly sickening in the way Gu Fang is referred to above. Why are you so obsessed with one man's opinion? Surely he is a human, not a god, whose opinion has to be based on evidence. And if he won't give you the evidence (as I have found with Guo Da Shun on many occasions) to counter evidence you present, why should he be believed?"

and

"Bill, I know and like Professor Guo, but your groveling attitude putting him on a papal pedestal of infallibility just because of his reputation is both dangerous and ridiculous. The only thing that matters is evidence, and I have seen that Professor Guo dismisses evidence however strong whenever it contradicts his preformed opinion. That puts him in a very dangerous position, in my view, especially when so many people (most of whom have never met him) counting on him. I am saying nothing more than I would say to his face."

Now since he had personally met with Professor Guo more than one time, may be he did know something we don't.

Now the other jade pals responded to his comments as follow:

"I agree with your statement in many respects, but also differ from you in some ways on the conclusions at which you and I arrive...

I agree that Gu Fang, along with any other jade professional, expert, or collector, is fallible and subject to making errors of judgement... I agree that individuals base their opinions and judgements on evidence (but also, I would add, on INTERPRETATION of evidence, which is usually where the difference of opinion develops)...

Where these jarchaic jade experts and authenticators differ from most collectors (including me and probably all members of this discussion forum) is that they have had the opportunity to see, study and learn from scores of collections and literally many thousands of archaic jades (as well as many thousands of modern pieces "in the archaic style" to be kind)... As well as to attend conferences with a wide variety of other jade experts and professionals... As well as researching, photographing, and publishing books on archaic jades...

For example, Gu Fang has handled and examined innumerable museum, excavated, documented, and well provenanced archaic jades... He has researched and published some of the most comprehensive and "authoritative" books on the subject... Thus, his knowledge based on this experience is certainly superior to mine...

I clearly and unambiguously recognize that in certain matters he has pre-conceived ideas of what "genuine" and "authentic" items should look like, and is usually uncomfortable "approving" or authenticating any items which significantly differ from these pre-conceived ideas based on many verified authentic jades which he has examined...

The result is that, for the most part, I usually agree with his assessment and judgement of what IS authentic (based on his greater experience), while I more often disagree with his judgement on what is NOT authentic due to these "blinders" to pieces different from those with which he is familiar... "

and from another jade pal:

"...that is so sad. You stated before that Chinese museum Hongshan exhibtions leave you, "yawn," bored. And you criticize any official excavation finds as faked.

It seems you are more excited with the search for internal evidence to validate your collection than in enjoying the artistry and beauty of authentic Hongshan works. And, of course, you are welcome to enjoy your handicrafts however you like, but I find it terribly sad that you seem to despise the very articles they attempt to reproduce."

Now the interesting thing is who should we trust, in the collecting of Hongshan jades?

Ourselves?
Members here such as Anita, Pipane or ....?
Jade experts such as Guo Dashun, Xu Qing, Gu Fang or....?
Jade dealers?

I believe that is why it is so very difficult to attribute a Hongshan jade carving, especially without being able to examine it personally. Even if we can examine it, many of us would simply not know what to look for.

Therefore, I believe it would be extremely beneficial if all the Hongshan jade collectors or lovers in this or other forum would be willing to share with us what types of criteria they would use to attribute and authenticate a Hongshan piece and explain them with detailed pictures and descriptions. I believe that will surely benefit those of us who dearly love Hongshan jades.

I would try to post (in a separate post) an article written (translated) by Gu Fang in regard to the type of jade material he believe was used in making authentic Hongshan jades. However, I may not necessarily agree with everything he said.

Thank you.

Bill

I will start with a joke. If you were to ask 10 jade experts you will get 11 opinions. My older and more experienced dealer friend basically told me that he stopped worrying about what people say a long time ago.
As I have mentioned before, I have met many experts in the asian art field and part of my professional work involves decision making. After having a good talk with them, I came to the following conclusions:
1) Museum curators are most conservative. Although, they will never openly admit the fact that whenever they have a slight doubt they will say it's fake. There is a reason for this. They spend their lifetimes building their reputations. The last thing they want is authenticating a fake piece. I have seen many reputations being tarnished by this (e.g., former Minneapolis curator buying a multi-million dollar painting which turn out to be forged. Even though he got his money back, people will forever remember his mistake.)
2) Sotheby's and Christie's also have high standards. That is why they ask for provenance. They are in a service business with relatively little tangible assets and all their capital/net worth is in their reputation so they try very hard to protect it. Remember Arthur Andersen in the Enron case? But they also have to sell to make money and that is why they will take more chances than museum curators and occasionally make mistakes.
3) Several experts' names were mentioned and I don't personally know any of them. The person I think is very good is Yang Boda. He has a lot of experience and wrote volumes of excellent books. He also pointed out a mistake by a famous Harvard professor, Salmony, in the San Francisco Asian Art Museum jade piece. Remember, an expert's opinion is just an opinion. Some experts have an incentive to be less stringent because they are paid by the person providing the piece for evaluation. That is how Arthur Andersen got into similar trouble.

So where do we go from here. As I have mentioned earlier, we should do the following:
a) Look at well documented evidence, i.e., excavated pieces (I think it's silly to argue about the authenticity of this), published old collections (e.g., by Salmony, in Minneapolis Museum of Art, etc.), and those sold in well-established auction houses such as Christie's, Sotheby's, Huahai(?), etc.
b) Go to the museums to examine the pieces yourself. Be objective and look for paradigms, i.e., commonality of themes and features.
c) Form an objective opinion. As I have mentioned earlier, no one can actually authenticate a piece with 100% certainty. I buy a piece based on what I think is a probability of authenticity, possible worth of a piece, how much it cost, how much I like the piece, and whether I cannot afford to lose money on the piece without losing too much sleep over it. Nowadays, I never buy a piece with no 'reasonable' well-documented comparables since I usually pay a lot for each of the pieces.
d) Bill mention about the price range of various pieces. I have 'rubbed shoulders' with famous Asian art people such as Eskenazi, Marchant, Lally, and Keverne whenever I attend the auction houses. I can tell you that provenance is very important and can account for a large portion of the value. Every piece has a value based on the rarity, quality, and how many 'experts' think it's authentic.
e)It took me a long time to finally 'get it' from my dealer friend. He said buy it to enjoy it the the value comes from the enjoyment, not exactly how how much it's worth. However, in my heart of hearts, I still want my pieces to be worth a lot, which I think they are :).

BTW, I forgot to add a few more points. There are about 300 excavated and/or museum Hongshan pieces worldwide; hence, they are extremely rare and, as you all know, some well-known or well-accepted pieces have sold for more than US$100,000. Most of the pieces we have would not meet the stringent requirements to be widely accepted as Hongshan pieces.

I collect Chinese art objects which mainly consist of ceramics, archaic bronze, archaic jades (and a few pieces of Ming and Qing jades). As for the archaic jades, I have liangzhu, Hongshan, Shang, Zhou, and Han jades. The point I want to make about archaic jades is that ALL published 'smooth and shiny' archaic jades in the museums are well-cleaned and some may be oiled or waxed. Remember, until the Han dynasty all these jades are buried, i.e., mud encrusted. Even when they are not buried, such as those King Nanyue tomb, they are severely 'weathered' being in close proximity with the corpse, etc. Some of the stains can be cleaned and some cannot. I have actually bought one each of 'uncleaned' Han and Warring States jades. I made a 'mistake' by cleaning the Warring States jade. It took me several days of soaking in water and brushing to get a shiny clean brown jade. The mud encrusted in the jade has more or less turned stone-like. My dealer was very unhappy about it and said that I destroyed the 'value' by cleaning it. I admit, I have OCD but, has so far, managed to keep the Han bi uncleaned (mud-encrusted) and could not enjoy the 'inner beauty' of it.

Thanks, I guess the third one is yours Bill. My preference goes to the two first items..

Good eyes. Please see my response to Sean.

Do you believe Gu Fang knows anything about jades especially Hongshan jade? Have you read any of his jade books?

What criteria you are using in authenticating the pig dragon you posted here as genuine, if you do not mind to share with all HS jade collectors here.

Thanks.

B

P.S. NO, I do not own any one of the three pig dragons while I do wish to own the first green one. By the way both Tom and Diasai agreed with me that the Hongshan jade bird listed for sales in your site is a very good Hongshan piece. If you can let us know what its sales price is (if the moderator allows you to respond here or you may list it (with sales prices and pictures) in the Message Board), we would appreciate very much.

Also, do you actually examine each piece listed on your site, attribute them before you list them for sales?

I don't know Mr. Gu personally,
I do possess his two volume book about Chinese jade, not a recent book, the theme is jade general, it is not a book focusing on archaic jades.
I recall (correct me if I am wrong) that you can find in one of these book one famous horse shape hongshan jade with the wrong period attribution.

Experts agreed later that it was a Hongshan jade when Hongshan jade started to be popular and it was later auctioned has HS jade.
It is still a correct book to start with.

I am suspicious in general about declared "jade expert", all the jade expert I know don't need to declare it. They don't need it because everybody know and can judge just by looking at it..They have good jades and they don't promote fake jade.

All "declared public expert" I found in China had the magic power to sell junk to newbies just because they where expert! (at the admiration of all the dealers...of fake).

But when it comes to the pig dragon you posted as "authenticated by Mr. Gu", I start to be very doubtful about this man integrity since this piece looks very new even from a low resolution picture.

By the way the legal value of this paper is close to zero. It's a farce!

And let me tell here again, at the opposite of what I read here and there: NO, when you ask 10 experts you don't get 11 opinions but just ONE !

That's an evidence! think about it: would there be any market at all if nobody could say what's real?
Go with a Shang jade blade as auctioned at Christie's to any respectable dealer/expert he would tell you it is fantastic piece and how much it is worth...I guaranty you

(if you tell him you get it at 30$ on Ebay he won't believe you one second ;) and might even call the police),

The real problem is people don't come with such good stuffs and don't want to admit/realize it.

In fact all amateurs and experts (of a certain level) agree: that's a fact, the slightest doubt, one piece would be disregarded...

You actually hear this "10 experts 11 opinions" theory from the very same people...some of them don't really understand, some find it very convenient ;)...

I'll start to post a bibliography on my website to help collector find the good cheap (I don't think expensive books are better) reference books.

To answer you question I do use the very same criteria you disregarded before: jade type, carving, evidence of aging, surface alteration/ baojiang...but most important long experience of archaic jade and fake ones.

Witch HS jade bird are you talking about? I do have 3 jade birds listed on the website the last one being this one...(I must say I like it very much, my personal opinion)

My associate and I possess 95% of listed antiques, the rest comes from private collection or the antique dealer network I set up in China through the years (witch allows to have a larger variety of interesting pieces). I personally review all item posted on the website, but nobody is expert in everything, my associate is expert in ceramic and has a good expertise in jade too, I also often refer to a third expert on jade and on later Ming/Qing ceramics.

I post a new item only if we all agree, the goal is to provide reliable expertise to our customer and preserve/built our website image. For the rest again nobody is perfect but we're confident enough to offer a very extensive guarantee.

At least I may add that if you look carefully at our market position (our choices) you might find (an information shared for long time by our newsletter readers) that we target what represent the essence of Chinese Culture (I get that from I much estimated expert from Gugong National Museum): SIMPLICITY. The research of Harmony (in color, shapes, texture, meaning and "essence")...he and I believe harmony is best reached by simples ways.

I think about a round shaped, plain color, vase from Chinese "renaissance" (Song Dynasty), a elegant Baici teapot, a large Cizhou painted meiping...a Ding finely Molded dish, a small Jun purple-splashed bowl, a large Yuan Dynasty Qinghua jar...The climax of Chinese ceramics!

Back to your question a correct* Neolithic Hongshan jade bird price would range from 3000 to 8 000 E even more some time, I have a Hongshan locally available type of amazonite "jade" bird, I won't sell it for 10 000 euro. Some time less of course, but I am talking of high quality material and craftsmanship here.

if somebody (you don't know) offers you a "fantastic yellow jade bird" for less than 2000 Euro I would find it suspect at first.





URL Title :Pipane Asian Art Gallery

Talking about numbers...

over the past year I only could get 3 HS jades, the previous year 7, 5 the year before...and already 6 so far this year (I am talking about good jade piece)...

and I am continuously looking for it. Buying everything of good quality I see. (sometime collector just won't sell, Sean's wright, sometime connection is a key factor to get what you're looking for). I'd say the market is dry very very small...compare to the market I see outside and in internet (from tourist stuff to better made and artistic fantasy stuffs) true archaic jade market doesn't represent 0,01% of it (in term of exposure and volumes including major auctions companies).

And this two market are very different and share little connection...frankly why would you bother to sell real if a fake can do the trick with phenomenal benefit?

Here a interesting picture, antique turquoise beads, bottom from left to right, chinese "han", inner mongolia (dark one, flat olive shape), Yunnan (spider net), tibet and inner mongolia again...

I have the same doubts as Sean about the 3rd zhulong, where does it come from?

Diasai

Hi, Diasai:

It was supposedly purchased from a top-scale dealer from New York and came with a COA issued by Gu Fang. I did see the copy of the COA with the zhulong's picture on it but I would need to find the picture before I can post it. Since I do not own it and have never examined it, I really cannot tell for sure. If it is indeed authenticated by Gu Fang and it will be rather interesting, do you think?

B

Posted are the pictures of Gu Fang's COA for the third pig dragon I posted. Since I do not own the pig dragon and have never examined it in person, therefore I cannot say for sure whether it is authentic or not.

I also posted Gu Fang's COA for Kevin's Shang dynasty collared disc here. The two COAs look quite similar and seem to come from the same source. Again,I do not know for sure whether both COAs came from Gu Fang or not. If any other jade collectors may have any COAs that they know for sure came from Gu Fang, please post here for comparison.

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=33598

That is what Anita said about Kevin's Shang disc and about Gu Fang's jade expertise:

"Kevin have sent it to Throckmorton NYC to be examined by Prof.Gu Fang who is sometime at Throckmorton Fineart, and it happended to be of Shang Dynasty as its was claimed from the beginning."


"Dear Bill

Gu fang's opinion is final, how can anyone compatible with people who wrote 15 Volumn of jade unearthed in China.

We judge from pictures, but Gu Fang examined the real piece.

Anyway, authentic jade artefacts are running out as well as Xinjiang's jade mine. Kevin Shang disc would worth millions of dollar soon...

Have fun
Anita Mui "

Mr. Anthony M. Lee, the moderator, made a comment that I believe is great advice now looking in hind sight:

"I would however caution all those interested in jades of this period to continue to be skeptical about all authentications and tests and opinions. Without wishing to cast aspersions or judging anyone - the New York and London art communities are divided between those who respect Throckmorton and the specialists connected with the dating and authentication of their jades and those who find much of it questionable. Reputations can be bought (even those high up in major auction houses and galleries). Opinions purchased. Neither publication nor academic position necessarily denote reputation in the field."

Mehmet also made a very wise comment (also now observed by me in hind sight):

"Dear Anita,

The art business is now full of fools and fraudsters using academics and quack scientists to authenticate their fake pieces.That piece of paper is worthless and guarantees nothing.
What on earth does "Good" mean, and since when has Throckmorton Fine Arts become a scientific laboratory for authenticating jades?

Mehmet"

Now interestingly, Sean, Pipane and Diasai did not like this pig dragon certified by Gu Fang. More interestingly, Anita did not express her "expert" opinions at all.

My question for Anita is, can we always trust Gu Fang's opinions? If we can, then this pig dragon certified by him had to be authentic, correct?

If we cannot trust Gu Fang, who can we trust then?
Should we trust yours or Pipane's?

For me, I trust Diasai's!

Please do not misunderstand me, I have no intention to make Gu Fang look bad. The COAs can be false or Gu Fang simply made an error with some of the piece authenticated by him. Anybody can make an error. Also, if none of us do not get a chance in examining the pig dragon in person, how we can say for sure one way or the other about a jade piece based on low-resolution pictures only?

Of course, I understand that each jade collector must trust his/her own expertise and instinct, but that is certainly difficult when everybody seems to see things a little bit different, does it?

Bill

For comparison.

Today HS market trend.

Look familiar to you?

???????

From Anita's collection?

OR?

Although I am not a legal expert, I am seriously very doubtful of the value of the certificate. The reason is NONE of us can ever "guarantee" the authenticity of an ancient object because we were not there when it was made. Please read the disclaimers of Sotheby's and Christie's and you will know what I mean. If the certificate were to be authentic, then I have much less respect for Gu Fang, unless he is not aware of the statement that he signed. One very famous museum curator concur with me that one can only give a probability estimate of the authenticity of an object. Usually, a statement such as, 'to the best of our knowledge, the item is of so-and-so period' would be appropriate.

Dear Bill

Quote from you:

"for me I trust Diasai!"

Visit the following link and tell me where those doubtful collection are from?

Hope this help!

Anita




URL Title :Jade-Dragon-From-Hongshan-Culture

Anita

Do you believe the above artifact to be new?

The above artifact is a very fine Late Hongshan Period Jade Artifact, made of very rare and fine quality dark green nephrite, with wonderful patina.

Unfortunatly it is from another collection but we are very grateful that we have the authorization to display the artifact on our website: http://www.innaja.org

The Jade-Dragon artifact posted above is an authentic and very beautyful example of a Late Hongshan Period jade.

Diasai

Dear Diasia

That's what you saw, but plenty of experts in Beijjing Auction houses didn't.

Have fun
Anita

Sure.... ;)


I am in Beijing I could visit them with a camera...would you like it?

the correct way to describe it in Chinese:

太恐怖了！

�Chinese creativity spirit" I like it, good pick Anita...the company name too...

For the rest the usual 6$ fee market junk sold somewhere bet. 30$ and 60$'on Ebay...nothing new under the sun...

But frankly even those who really wants to believe it (as I do;) can't...

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