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enclosed are pics of two jades.
a cup of undetermined archaic style featuring
two qilong dragons in relief and two phoenix
type birds. as you can see the cup is heavily
oxidized. there are iron oxide crystals that
have grown in the inside of the holes. as per
the instructions of an unnamed USA jade webhost,
i attempted to remove the oxidation by bathing
the jade first in a bath of oxalic acid for
an hour and then overnight in bleach. the results
were interesting. i offer a before and after
picture. if anyone can help with a style i would
appreciate it. i have yet to find any match.

second i offer a white jade lion brushrest. in
the case of this piece you will see substantial
calcification with slight oxidizing. once again comments are appreciated.
and yes both pieces easily pass a hardness test
on the unaffected surfaces.

2nd set of pics.
I recorded the effects as I attempted to remove the oxide from the cup.

The lion has three indents as pictured. I am
thinking that it may have been held in some
kind of support.

Hi John, These pieces are obvious fakes, that Anita, and co often associate ever thing, including authentic pieces with. To someone with experience handling authentic jade they are not worth a second look. They have fake written all over them. 1) electric drill marks as you have shown 2) fake calcification with the wrong appearance, these looks frosty and corroded, not smooth and infused. The cup has a thin layer of brown colored cement or line stuck on it. I suspect you can remove that with some acetic acid. If it doesn't come off it is probably a rubber organic base material in which case a solvent like acetone or chloroform might be more successful. Make sure you follow the manufacturer's direction and care when handling such corrosive and harmful chemicals. 3) the material is bad quality and ugly, the ancients do not carve nice things out off any odd rock. These pieces may bot even be made from nephrite they may be made from a rock called serpentine, a relative of asbestos, which is softer and scratchable and reacts with weaker acids like phosphoric acid. I would be a little careful scratching them 4) The design is entirely wrong. I have even seen pieces carved with courting couples. To someone experience such pieces are not worth pondering about. They are cheap tourist junk.

I was reluctant to post anything ever again on this forum,
but then the world would be left with the wrong
Idea of what the true love of art is about.
The second word in the forum after all is art.
I love and appreciate art, and I have been a scholar of art for over
40 years. As a scholar I am always learning, and I am always open to learn more.
The disappointment of having contributors who have no business offering opinions and
Misleading forum participants into thinking that authentication is a product best served cold
And with very little thought or effort.

What is an expert?
An expert at a large auction house has put in years of study.
He has at his disposal complete sets of reference works to facilitate his opinion.
He uses an established set of epistemological rules in the delivery of his opinion.
Some of the rules of connoisseurship involved in the identification of jade are:

1.HISTORICAL CONNOISSEURSHIP
This refers to the endeavor to identify jade by time and culture, where does a given piece of jade
Fall into the mix with similar historically identified works. [When and where]

2.AESTHETIC CONNOISSEURSHIP
This refers to the cultivation of a discriminating appreciation of the qualities of jade. While a copy
Or fake may actually be more appealing to the eye, the question of what inspired the original artist is
A valid inquiry as the artistic merit of a piece.

3.VALUE-CONNOISSEURSHIP
A sculpture in jade has three values.
First as jade it is considered a gemstone as it has a value as a gem.
Second it has historical value, what would you pay for a piece of art that helped to establish historically
A style or culture.
Third it has an aesthetic value, this is the value that the artist who carved the stone put into it. The value
Of Michelangelo�s David is certainly worth more than the marble that it was carved out of.

4.AUTHENTICATION
This refers to the labor intensive use of the above qualities.
Consider first the properties of the item
Identifiers, the characteristics possessed by the object that are apparent to standard known qualities.
Context, how does the object fit into a group of known objects.

This list could continue, and would refer to finding identifiers, provenance both historic and archaeological,
The eliminative force of evidence, [when all else is proven false then what remains is true], but for now I
Have added enough for now.

Thank you for reading.

I have to agree with Lee. It is junk. The kind that has been spread over ebay for years now.
Keep trying.
Good luck

Mr.Lee why you have to attack Anita Mui at any time you have chance to post, it would be nice to talk about jade, and leave her alone. I feel uncomfortable that you do harm to person who spend so much time to make this forum interesting, and we felt that she help us a lot, but you just tried to push yourself to be an expert with no prove of any kind, but word from you.

Hi Samuel, she attacked me first and gave her unqualified negative comments about my authentic jade pieces, so I gave her back some of her own medicine . Coming from Northern mainland ancestory I am a little fiery, as expected, but I mean well. I was just trying to help the audience to identify and date jade pieces. I have vast experience in Chinese art and would like to help folks that wants to learn, but she just keep giving her unqualified and unsubstantiated criticism. However I do acknowledge that she has helped educate the audience about the abundance of fakes in the antique jade world. Much are easy to distinguish( e.g John's Chimera and cup or Anita's water dragon) but some are made so well that even an expert will fail to distinguish. the latter are the ones that I am most concern about.

I do not see anything wrong to call her dragon authentic. It fits Han craftsmanship and material. You may look carefully with knowledge of ancient Chinese jade art. And Qing jade from auction house you bought thing from do not have it all. You will have very much trouble when you see 2nd piece like what you bought from auction house selling in China Town for less than a hundred. I remember that the AURORA Art Museum Taiwan Collection has yellowish green Hongshan figurines in their highlight collection that one was purchased in HK for millions, you know whom Aurora bought from?

Samuel, this is no way on earth that the dog looking dragon is Han dynasty. The material is wrong first of all, it is too translucent to be native Hetian jade, where is that whitish specks that looks like rice porridge in the material .2) there is no patina that fits a Han dynasty piece, where is that calcification and natural staining, all it has is artificial brown stain, the type you find in china town fakes.3 ) the piece is too smooth to be Han, it has a glossy polish like the one on my modern jade bracelet. 4) what sort of provenance has it got ? What sort of collection did it come from? Has it been seen by a specialist from a reputable auction house? 5) Finally the shape is wrong. I have never seen a dragon with ears that long or a tail that curls between it's back legs. Show me a similar piece at a chinese museum or Taipei or at Sothebys or Christies and i rest my case. Well I am very surprise you can't tell it is fake. I hope you guys aren't concocting your own brand of fake jade, there is already too much of that stuff on the market, to make a buck.

First of all, major auction houses do not have all the answer of antiquity. And they are working for profits.


It is too translucent to be native Hetian jade,

-No, it is not. Hetian jade even have transparency jade look very similar to agate. And Han jades were not all made from Hetain jade.

where is that whitish specks that looks like rice porridge in the material .

-That area is possible from lime stone layer of earth from the burial ground.

2) there is no patina that fits a Han dynasty piece, where is that calcification and natural staining, all it has is artificial brown stain, the type you find in china town fakes.

-The patina and any sign of age will never apply to date ancient jade. Because nephrite is tough and tight, it resists corrosion and mineral permeation. In British Museum, the Sackler�s collections, Chinese Museums, and other major museums, many ancient jade do not have patina.

3 ) the piece is too smooth to be Han, it has a glossy polish like the one on my modern jade bracelet.

-Han Dynasty jade has �gem luster� polished surface which was once famous at that time.

4) what sort of provenance has it got ? What sort of collection did it come from? Has it been seen by a specialist from a reputable auction house?

-Why answers of specialists in auction houses who work for profits are the answer of all jade? Things with good provenance to avoid lawsuit is what they did on ancient jade. In case GuFang said authentic, but auction house experts say fake because of unknown provenance which answer will you believe?


5) Finally the shape is wrong. I have never seen a dragon with ears that long or a tail that curls between it's back legs.

Show me a similar piece at a Chinese museum or Taipei or at Sothebys or Christies and i rest my case. Well I am very surprise you can't tell it is fake.

-The shape is not wrong, the artistic expression is what artist played with it, that dragon has tail of bear at the beginning, then long tail twisted as rope as twisted jade rings of archaic period. You have to understand that archaic jade is not available with similar form made in dozens in lapidary shops that you can go there and pick one. Archaic jade were made to order, and possibly for one�s taste. Han Dynasty was huge and rich with cultural mix-up from the west. Things that museums and auction houses do not have don�t mean that they do not exist. And when it has second piece as museums, books, after major excavation finds, at major auction houses , they are surely modern copies.



I hope you guys aren't concocting your own brand of fake jade, there is already too much of that stuff on the market, to make a buck.

-I saw jade mirror on eBay, and in China Town, but no dragon like that.

"where is that whitish specks that looks like rice porridge in the material"

-This is mr.lee's question, I misinterpreted.

High quality Hetain jade do not have white specks. If you visit Khotan jade market you will find that there's purity in some area of the river cobbles and mountain slab that have no white specks at all. And that area can be cut to make fine jade art value a few grands for a thumb size, experienced jade guru knows that.

Glossy polish surface (gem luster)is typical of Han jade and this glossy surface was done again in the Northern Song Dynasty and Emperor Qianglong's imperial workshop of the Qing Dynasty. But your goose mirror, the surface look glossy polish, and the craftsmanship are different from Yuan work, it's a modern replica.

About the tail that curls between it's back legs, it's a typical style of the late Warring States, the archaic dragon has upper part of tail of bear, then twisted rope-like tail tug under the long body to under the head.

Picture from 2008 auction in China page 7.

Sorry not convince. Also the piece on the from the cover of 2008 antique is fake look at the artificial brown russet stain and the shape of that dragon head. All I can say is if the face and eyes of the creature is wrong it is fake- eg wrong eyebrow or wrong eye shape or head size. The head is so small relative to the body it looks like a queen termite. Sorry fake. This are just nonsensical pieces with no museum pieces to back them. Han dynasty dragon that Tommy show is authentic and the shape similar to other bronze examples. It also has a good patina and the shape of that dragon is right with no tail curling between back legs or 2 set of ears like that water dragon, one long and one short.
Patina, inclusion and calcification plays a very important role in jade identification. Take a good book like Translucent World published by the Museum of NSW, Australia. Go to Sackler and Freer museum of Asian art website study the ancient jade pieces in detail. Tell me which one doesn't have some form of calcification or stain inclusion. They all do. Even Ching dynasty jade have some stain inclusion usually light brown color in fissure and cracks from the owner's handling over a hundred years or so. Such details are what experts also look for else than the cut. Look at that Ching dynasty mystical dog's mouth, it has that light brown stain of a fissure area. I bid for that piece at HK world trade center, Christies Nov 2008 but miss it. Lovely piece from a American collection with a nice wood stand. There are little round cuts between it's teeth with a convex center - typical tool cut found in Qianlong pieces. My other censer from London Christies has the same tool mark as well as several other Qianlong pieces.
You show a picture of a Western
Han dynasty jade hook from the Von Oertzen Collection. I have the Christies cataloque right in front of me and that piece has plenty of stain inclusion in the carved lines on it's back and some on the front. That piece sold for 750thousand pounds.

Rice pudding appearance is important for Hetian identification. You can only see those with a bright light place on the surface of the carving. There will be some rice pudding appearance, otherwise it has a milky appearance, not a transparent green appearance.

"Rice pudding appearance is important for Hetian identification."

What you mean that jade with no rice pudding are not Hetain jade, so where those plenty of purify white jade in the market come from? Any white jade harvested in the world rather than the Yorungqash? and jade that have no rice pudding is not from Hetain and it's a bad quality?

Sorry not convince. Also the piece on the from the cover of 2008 antique is fake look at the artificial brown russet stain and the shape of that dragon head. All I can say is if the face and eyes of the creature is wrong it is fake- eg wrong eyebrow or wrong eye shape or head size. The head is so small relative to the body it looks like a queen termite. Sorry fake.

-That jade was sold at RMB 2,395,800 (US$ 351,290.-) without any doubt is a fake. So? You meant that Jade on auction from State Authorized Auction House in China which have revenue higher than Christies. And all antiquity were passed through the eyes of Chinese Museum curators are �fake��but Christies is not.

You look at Christies Lot # 213 Sale # 2841, and you tell me about it.

=====================================

This are just nonsensical pieces with no museum pieces to back them. Han dynasty dragon that Tommy show is authentic and the shape similar to other bronze examples. It also has a good patina and the shape of that dragon is right with no tail curling between back legs or 2 set of ears like that water dragon, one long and one short.

-Dragon ears, one long one short is authentic?. I don�t know that, what book you read?


=====================================
Patina, inclusion and calcification plays a very important role in jade identification. Take a good book like Translucent World published by the Museum of NSW, Australia. Go to Sackler and Freer museum of Asian art website study the ancient jade pieces in detail. Tell me which one doesn't have some form of calcification or stain inclusion.

-Samples from Freer Gallery

NO SIGN OF AGE AT ALL : Late Shang to early Western Zhou
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/zoomObject.cfm?ObjectId=47844


Eastern Han bi disc, clean and clear.
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/zoomObject.cfm?ObjectId=7965

Late Shang to early Western Zhou
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/zoomObject.cfm?ObjectId=47844

Warring state
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/zoomObject.cfm?ObjectId=49344


Eastern Zhou jade
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/zoomObject.cfm?ObjectId=8697
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/zoomObject.cfm?ObjectId=7956
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/zoomObject.cfm?ObjectId=7703
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/zoomObject.cfm?ObjectId=7961

=====================================


They all do. Even Ching dynasty jade have some stain inclusion usually light brown color in fissure and cracks from the owner's handling over a hundred years or so.

-No, Jade defines purity, bad parts chopped off. Some Qing jade maintain patina and alteration part of the original stone which is the trend of the period started from Qianlong Emperor who said that jade stone is too valuable to be cut some uneven color parts off.

=====================================

Han dynasty jade hook from the Von Oertzen Collection. I have the Christies cataloque right in front of me and that piece has plenty of stain inclusion in the carved lines on it's back and some on the front. That piece sold for 750thousand pounds.

-Does it have any heavy signs of age apart from stain that green dragon in question also have?

=====================================

Rice pudding appearance is important for Hetian identification. You can only see those with a bright light place on the surface of the carving. There will be some rice pudding appearance, otherwise it has a milky appearance, not a transparent green appearance.

- No, rice pudding appearance is a bad quality Hetain jade. �Jade defines PURITY�, has curds in it, it �s not pure at all.

90% of jade pieces that have been buried for several hundred years, would have some sort of surface alteration or patina. The amount of patination would depend on rainfall. the more humid areas will have more patina. The sort of patina will depend on the minerals in the soil. Russet patina if the ground if high in iron oxide. Black patina if the ground is high in organic material and whitish patina if the area is high in calcium.

The other point on the finish of the carving. Old carving have a satin like finish because they were polish with crude abrasive, usually powdered garnets? Burial of the jade will also cause some surface alteration like micro calcification will further reduce the gloss on the surface. Modern polishing material like Aluminium oxide can create a high gloss. Such reflective high gloss pieces will date to 20th century or latter. It is safe to say that a glossy piece is modern unless the antique piece is repolished which is possible in some pieces in Western collection, where nicks and chips are polished back.

90% of jade pieces that have been buried for several hundred years, would have some sort of surface alteration or patina. The amount of patination would depend on rainfall. the more humid areas will have more patina. The sort of patina will depend on the minerals in the soil. Russet patina if the ground if high in iron oxide. Black patina if the ground is high in organic material and whitish patina if the area is high in calcium.



-No, jade is too valuable to be buried with the dead. And majority of archaic jade were passed down to next generation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The other point on the finish of the carving. Old carving have a satin like finish because they were polish with crude abrasive, usually powdered garnets?

-No. In Neolithic Period the stone mortar was used for grinding millet grain to make bread, and there are many holes at the mountain foot in North China where the stone floor of the hill were drilled to make mortar for grinding millets grains. That thing was applied to grind CORUNDUM (hardness 9) and quartz (hardness 7) into powder. The abrasive agent have 2 kinds, the crude one used for smoothing after jade was cut into figure, then the powder one use for shining and polishing jade. These 2 minerals are hard but crispy, and easy to break.

*garnet has hardness of 6.5-7.5 and garnet mine in China located in Fujian Province, impossible to be transported to the north to make archaic jade, but corundum and quartz are widely available in the north east.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Burial of the jade will also cause some surface alteration like micro calcification will further reduce the gloss on the surface. Modern polishing material like Aluminium oxide can create a high gloss. Such reflective high gloss pieces will date to 20th century or latter. It is safe to say that a glossy piece is modern unless the antique piece is repolished which is possible in some pieces in Western collection, where nicks and chips are polished back.


-Corundum is the most common naturally occurring crystalline form of aluminium oxide which were widely used to polish jade since �Neolithic Period�. And there is a legend said in the record of Sima Qian the grand historian of China said that in the spring and autumn period there was small knife/chisel that can easily cut jade as cut melon, and that knife/chisel is surly a diamond imported from the west. And diamond was crushed into powder to shine jade. Diamond was not a valuable mineral at that time. Burial jades depend upon the tombs and their environments, Shang to Han tombs are mostly 15 meters under the ground with chamber covered by timbers, fabric, stone, sand and charcoal. Some tombs were collapsed, some flooded, some don�t, and some were looted shortly after tombs were sealed. And robbers searched mostly for jade and gold. Nephrite is the toughest and tightest mineral on earth it resists to any natural toxic, acid, alkaline from the tombs and earth layers. However, modern strong chemical would corrode nephrite within a minute.

And how can you explain �glossy� polish of the Han jade burial suit, Ming plaque, and water dropper? Were they made in 20th century?

*Image copyright Gary L. Todd, used by Permission'

Mr.lee

You said reflective high gloss pieces will date to 20th century or later.

How about these high gloss pieces? made in 20th Century too?

MING JADE BIXIE & BIRD - CJ029
http://www.orientaltreasures.org/main.php/v/Nephrite+Jades/CJ029/

HAN BI - J047
http://www.orientaltreasures.org/main.php/v/Nephrite+Jades/J047/

MING JADE BAMBOO - CJ011
http://www.orientaltreasures.org/main.php/v/Nephrite+Jades/CJ011/

MING DRAGON PLAQUE - AJ001
http://www.orientaltreasures.org/main.php/v/Nephrite+Jades/AJ001/

SONG/MING PEONY PENDANT - AJ017
http://www.orientaltreasures.org/main.php/v/Nephrite+Jades/AJ017_001/

HAN 8-CUT CICADA - J031
http://www.orientaltreasures.org/main.php/v/Nephrite+Jades/J031/


5 DYNASTIES JADE WINGED BIXIE - CJ012
http://www.orientaltreasures.org/main.php/v/Nephrite+Jades/CJ012/

SONG YUE - WK695
http://www.orientaltreasures.org/main.php/v/Nephrite+Jades/WK695/

Note the artificial russet stain on this dragon group that sold for 2million yuan to the brown russet stain on Anita's water dragon and the similar brown stain on John's cup.

In the midst of heated discussions, I wonder how many people had caught on with one of the statement made by Lee:

"native Hetian jade - whitish specks that looks like rice porridge in the material"

I have been trying to find some easy-to-understand words to explain to one of my new jade friends who has been desperately looking for nice Hetian jade all over the eBay and while I understand how they should look because of their unique texture but I just lack the words in explaining it to him.

I just happened to come across Lee's comment here and BINGO, here it is. On all my white (or mutton-fat) Hetian jade carvings, whether they are late Qing, early Republican or one modern Hetian jade sheep I just purchased recently, they all have these unique "whitish specks that looks like rice porridge in the material" (inside texture). However, I have not been able to see these type of specks in modern celadon jade and I do not have any OLD celadon Hetian jade carvings, therefore I cannot say for sure if celadon Hetian jade may have similar texture like the white one or not. I also cannot say for sure if all Hetian jade will have this similar rice-porridge like specks or not. May be Lee can elaborate further and post pictures of some celadon Hetian jade for us to see.

In this case, I do not know for sure if Anita's piece is Hetian jade or not, but I believe it was made of beautiful celadon nephrite jade. However, I do not believe it was Han dynasty either. Of course, it would not be that difficult for her to find out. Sam Bernstein can probably authenticate it for her, for a fee of course.

However, since none of us here are really professional jade experts, therefore I believe everybody can form their own opinions. But it seems Lee does seem to know about Chinese jade especially material than most of us. You may want to see Anita's previous opinions given on some jade carvings posted here regarding their material and you may then form your own judgment regarding her jade expertise. I was equally annoyed with her kept calling other people's jade pieces as "Modern" except her own. May be Samuel or whoever you are, can read some previous messages posted here by both Lee and Anita, then you can form your own conclusion.

B

Bill

Stick on the jade, not personal attack , it seems not to educate any parties but your own self esteem.

About rice porridge, you look at the first picture I post on the left.."Neolithic jade ring, Longshan Culture from the Sotheby's sale June 2009, Lot 2359. So? is it rice porridge?..BINGO!!!

How authentic is authentic? 1)It's authentic because jade has fishtank pebbles got struck in the suspension holes? 2)Hongshan aventine made from dyed quartzite? 3)Neolithic fish with skin peel off and unknown Chinese character in relief?
4)Hongshan eagle with "Shou" character engraved on it?

Samuel stop picking on Bill at least at least it has been a learning curve for him and he is willing to further his knowledge on Jade with a open mind. While you keep trying to invent reasons to authenticate your fake jade without any professional guidance. If it is fake it is fake , no matter how many reasons you try to give, it is still fake. Experts at international auction houses are trained and studied and they learn most their authentication techniques by studying and handling authentic museum pieces or pieces from good collections. Most do work closely with curators from museums and other experts. You can take a Asian art course sometimes offered by them. Anyway good luck Samuel with your own style of research but a jade piece is only worth what it can sell at auction and if the auction house refuse to accept it for sell, it is worth nothing. May be ebay.

Experts from auction house do not allowed to touch artifacts in China Museums, possibly never. International Auction Houses experts are not trained from China Cultural Relic Bureau, no way they have a fortune to touch the real things, but only thing they learn from pictures, books and through thing from collectors and alleged art in museums outside China that they think those things are real.

Christie Beijing has no license to sell Cultural relics, and it's banned for good.

Message deleted by moderator

I believe that pictured below is the mythical animal under discussion.

Trish.


A copyrighted image was used in this post w/o permission from the owner. Do not post images belonging to others without permission.

- Moderator

Trish

I found these 2 links very useful to you.

1)Shang jade axe found in Brisbane
http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=30334

2)Big Jade fakers on the net
http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/subforum.php?method=detailAll&Id=21764&sfid=4

Study on surface wonder from a vast collection of archaic jade fake ever established on the net with its proud owner who pretend to know it all and have a truck load of jade from factory in Guangzhou via HK dealer can talk much about "jade authentication". Home garden decoration jade collection in Brisbane with toxic dust said for themselves.

Please visit the link below.

URL Title :Factory Jade Fake

Trish, I believe that link below is the mythical jade under discussion.

URL Title :http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/subforum.php?method=detailAll&Id=21764&sfid=4

Message deleted by moderator

Message deleted by moderator

Samuel and Lee, how about sticking to the forum rules ?
Thank you

Lee, Archaic jade is difficult.

Many Han Dynasty dragon with tail curled between its legs found in Chinese museums and China state authorized auction houses.

"native Hetian jade - whitish specks that looks like rice porridge in the material"

That's not true, only amateur collector will think like that. There are fine quality without any white specks, that spotless raw material is very expensive.

Samples are fine Hetain jade figures with "no rice porridge".

Tommy, all the pieces of jade you show above are Ching dynasty and Hetian, They are milky and more opaque. Shine a bright light through next time there is a major auction and you will see some sort of rice pudding. Do it.

They are from major auction house where you bought your neo bangle from. They are best quality Hetain jade with high price estimation. The one with rice pudding is a lower quality with low cost.

Mr.Lee

It's only the matter of "good" provenance, what about the origin? Auction houses out of China dating jade on "biography of owners". Auction House will not teach you how to date jade. They just train you theory that fits things they are selling to you.

If you think that jade things Christie put on a tray for you are genuine, without any doubt, and leave Chinese auction houses selling fakes jade in their own country and Chinese jade experts turned blind eyes to that, then published auction records to fool millions of Chinese and worldwide jade collectors....you meant that all antique jade in the world are fakes except what Christie has, and Chinese/Foreign Museums do not have jade like Christie has, that Christie's jade can still be genuine? Because Mr.Christie said so?

Why don't all the antique shops in the world close themselves down then put their things at Christies' sale then sit, wait and share profits?

I'm not rich, but I like Chinese antique.

Claude, auction houses have a reputation to protect and so they do not want to sell any jade that is visibly fake to it's valued clients. There are various ways to authenticate antique jade but most of these have been copied by fakers lately. You get a whole 10 floor building in Beijing full of fake antique/modern Hetian jade carvings for sell. That is why provenance is important because it tells you that the jade has been collected years ago before such sophisticated fakes become present. These days dubious pieces are sold without date, because the specialist cannot tell for sure if it is old. It is up to the buyer to estimate the age. The best way to be sure that the jade is old is that it has a good provenance, coupled with a fitted 18th or 19th century stand. That way one can be very confident that it is definitely not a sophisticated fake. I do buy jade from trusted dealers else than Christies that can produce old receipts of purchase or provenance. Of course all the points of authentication has to be correct. It is not so hard for someone with a lot of experience to spot a genuine from a fake at a 90% accuracy. Yes one should buy within their means, for sure. Anyway good luck with your collecting.

Hi, John:

The reason I believe some members including myself who did not want to response to your thread is because we simply do not know what to say or how to say it in a manner that will not hurt your feeling.

It does not take an experienced jade collector to tell that the two jade carvings posted by you are not anything that anybody will get excited about because just like Kevin said, one can find tons of similar ones on eBay. All the weathering appear on them are artificial and therefore there does not seem to be any points in commenting on them.

However, I must applaud your diligent efforts in studying about jade and your enthuisiasm in trying to remove their weathering. I believe all of us including Anita, Mike and I had once trying to do so. Of course, one should never try to harshly clean any antique or archaic jade carvings. There is simply a BIG No No!

I believe you once said that you prefer beautiful carved soft stone carvings than ugly nephrite jade carvings. You said you do not care about the quality of the jade material. I cannot fault you for your taste.

However, if you do not learn or care about jade material, then you will be inevitably unable to tell if a piece of jade carving is really good or being atributed correctly (in each dynasty jade carvings were made of unique jade material).

Secondly, these two carvings posted here simply cannot be described as BEAUTIFUL. Of course, once again, that may depend on each one's unqiue taste. My best friend, B, has tons of simiar jade carvings like these two and he truly believe that they are archaic and beautiful. He plans to come out with a book with all the jade carvings he obtained mostly from eBay printed on it.

However, I do not believe either Lee or Kevin should be so harsh on you or your jade carvings since you have not presented them as anything archaic or intended to deceive anybody. It seems your main object of the post is to see what the best methods to remove weathering may be. Therefore, I do not know why Kevin can call these fakes if you did not intend to misrepresent them as anything other than "modern jade carvings". (you only call them archaic style but not as archaic jade carvings)

On the other hand, Kevin once acquried a collared disc which Anita called it Shang. Then he obtained a COA from Gu Fang says it was Shang. Anita congratulated him for being so lucky. The question to ask will be: why would any supposdely knowledgeable dealer (the dealer sold the disc seems to have connection with Gu Fang) will sell any authentic Shang discs at significantly below market price? (*It muste be below market price, otherwise why Anita would say Kevin was lucky if he had to pay full price?) Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying Kevin's disc is not authentic, but I am just saying that you will always get what you paid for.

Therefore, if you would truly want to be a scholar, especially in the collecting of jade carvings, then you will have no choice but to keep trying your best in learning more about jade and you must be able to examine authetnic jade carvings from large auction houses (either go there to look at them or win some for you to study), go to mesuems, studying jade books. Other than that, you will be just like most of us, who are dreaming to own one of the best jade collections, but will be limited by both our jade knowledge and resources. Best wishes! B

See this street jewelry jade rubbish on auction on Christies' for �800 - �1,200

lot 213 sale 2841

My feelings were not hurt, I realize that there
is not much to appreciate in terms of beauty regarding these two jade carvings. But no one answered my questions.
How were the iron hematite deposits formed on the
inside of the tool marks. I added more pics.
I have looked at many jade dragon cups, and none
have a matching appearance to the style of these.
Second, what purpose did the shallow drill spots
on the lion serve? if not to be held in some kind
of support. It does balance well when held in those three spots.

On John's photo that is the sort of brown stain I am talking about it is widely used to stain jade with brownish red fissure, but it looks unnatural and artificial

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Mr.Lee, see museum jade with no patina, no sign of age and no rice porridge in the material.

#1 is Eastern Zhou Hetain jade from Sackler

#2 is excavated jade, Western Han Hetain jade from Nanjing Museum.

#3 is excavated jade Western Han Hetain jade from Nanjing Museum.

They are fakes, aren't they?

There are signs of stain inclusion in these even though it is minimal. You will see these more clearly when you closely inspect them. Notice also the minute chipping and iregularites on the edges of these object. which are signs of wear. The majority of buried objects have some form of inclusion or calcification on very close inspection no douth about that. The Yuan dynasty dynasty jade plaque of the dragon may never have been buried. Anita's water dragon appears to have 2 set of ears. one long and one short and pointy. Anatomically that appears to be wrong when to compared with the museum dragon plaque that Tommy's posted. This plaque has a good patina as well compared with Anita's, which has a very long fissure on the natural stone- the color of this fissure has been artificially enhanced with a russet colored dye. This is a common method of faking. Natural patina looks very different and has very different colors and shades of colors combined. Jim has a point fakes made from softer material like Serpentine or Soapstones are easier to patinate an they can sometime look very real but of course it is all man made.

Do they have rice pudding? There are high res pictures and show that they are cleaned and clear, no patina of any kind. The white jade belt buckle is of Ming Dynasty and it was a buried jade, displayed at Shanghai Museum.

How can you see Anita's dragon ears? The pictures is only one size, and you confirmed that authentic Han dragon must have 1 long and 1 short ears, why Han Dynasty had that idea to make their dragon with handicap appearance? How can you know that jade was dyed, by looking at blurry picture? The jade dragon ge that sold for RMB 2,395,800 that has diamond polish luster and red brown stains 100% like Anita dragon has is a fake. That Warring States jade dragon ge had passed gemological test to be all natural and passed Chinese museums experts and Chinese antique jade experts is a fake. But all things pass through Christies� is a real deal. Mainland Chinese are very very cautious about what they bought, the authentication will never be ending at the end of auction, if the buyer show to you and to Christies and both of you said fake, you think whom the buyer should believe? a China States Authorized Auction house + Chinese museum scholars or you and Christies�?

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Samuel,this is a photo of a Han dynasty dragon from the Beijing palace museum. Now tell me how is this similar to Anita's dragon or the 2 million Yuan dragon axe?. 1) can you note the difference in patination or do you need new glasses? 2) Can you tell me how the carving style is different, any broad disc cuts on the rib cage area like Anita's? 3) Any artificial brown staining? 4) Any high gloss polish? 5) Tail curling between the back legs that extend to the front legs? Any 2 set of ear? Tell me are the 2 similar at all?

What I understand how you authenticate jade via pictures are:-1)base on what Christy has and few items that you bought from, which in your collection has no Han jade.2)All jades auctioned at state authorized, and state owned Chinese auction houses are fake. 3)All jades sold on the net and on the streets are fake because they are not applied by Christy sale tactic and you who learn from it.4)Jade that Christy has, no matter how odd they look different from collections of excavated jade is acceptable because it is Christies�.5)Ancient jade must have sign of age, no sign of age is a fake.6)90% of ancient jade were buried no matter which dynasties they are from.7)Hetain jade must have rice pudding in it, no rice pudding is not Hetain�s at all.8)Glossy polish is only available in 20th century.9)Garnet used for polishing jade.10)Nothing like museums collection and what Christy has are fake, no matter what the record said that 95% of tombs in China were looted. 11)Christy who was banned from selling cultural relic in China has chance to study collection of Cultural Relic Bureau in Chinese Museums.12)You believe in what Christies said and you don�t believe in China auction house people who may put their life in danger by false authenticate cultural relics for sale through the eyes of Cultural relic Bureau scholars.13)You have no confidence to purchase jade from other source but Christy.14)Christy�s jade authentication is final and there are no any jade experts on top of that.

Thanks, I rest my case.

Hi Wah, there are all sorts of ways to "authenticate" a fake antique. One of the way is to pay a fee to the specialist to write you a certificate to say that the piece is genuine. This was the case of a Yuan jar similar to the one sold by Christies for several million pounds. It was documented by CCTV. the chap brought it to a ceramic specialist paid some money and got him to write a certificate, with a red government stamp, to say that it was Yuan dynasty, even though it was a very good sophisticated fake. Than he took it to a local Chinese auction to sell. A curious passer by informed CCTV as she wondered if it was for real. Anyway it turned out to be fake after a TL test was conducted.

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How this thread got off the original subject of chemically weathered jades is beyond me. LEE, who the heck cares to read in almost every thread you reply to about how Anita Mui's dragon is fake. By now I don't care if that thing is made of kryptonite or fairy dust. You are just creating chain reactions of posters berating you which seem to necessitate moderation and you are oblivious to it. Enough already. Having almost had my say, what I would like to read more about is how the fakers manage to weather stone(jade?); what chemicals are used; what kind of stone...etc. Mr. LEE can you answer this and get back on topic please.

"Han dynasty dragon from the Beijing palace museum."


The duck face mystical animal with wings from Palace Museum Beijing and another one at Taipei is called pi-hsieh, not a dragon.

whitish specks/ rice porridge in the Hetian jade

Come on people, This is jade basic 101. Please go get a few Chinese books on jade or simply Google in Chinese. There are no need to have discussion about this. I actually talked about this before in my other tool mark #1 post and I called this "little clouds" inside the jade material.

KK

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