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Subject:Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Thu, Sep 05, 2019 IP: 98.152.172.26

Dear all,
I have a set of Chinese hanging scroll paintings, and they all look-touch-smell old and authentic, to me (a person with very limited knowledge about Art) :)
Below are pictures of one of the paintings.
I have grown very fond of them and would love to learn more about their origin and history.
I really appreciate any help !!!

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Fri, Sep 06, 2019

Here are the images :)







Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: rat Sat, Sep 07, 2019

if you are fond of the paintings, why are you posting only images of forged signatures and fake seals? just show the paintings.

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Sun, Sep 08, 2019

Dear friend,
Thank you very much for your time and comment :)
My heart sinks as I learned the truth you revealed ... The painting looks very old and real to me under magnifying glass, and I never thought that it is with faked seals and forged signatures (?!)
I have treasured the paintings and even thought to have them all appraised / authenticated in the near future ... :(
I will show some of them, but they might be faked and forged as well since the look similar in term of mounting and from the same estate :(







Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: rat Tue, Sep 10, 2019

Sure, and sorry to be curt, it's just much more interesting to see artwork, especially when prefaced by how much you enjoy it, rather than a series of requests from various folks asking for free translation of the seals and inscriptions on their items.

This is actually an ok picture, but it was made within the past two or three decades to masquerade as a picture by the Yuan artist Zhang Wo 張渥, who is known for his figure paintings. This webpage shows a couple of his surviving works (pictures are not the best) and includes a landscape handscroll that has been split into two photos (https://kknews.cc/culture/kxzgokq.html)
His supposed inscription and signature are in the upper right. On the left are two false signatures and inscriptions by Lu Ji, a Ming painter, and Shen Quan, a Qing painter. Not sure why those are there except to give the picture some bells and whistles. The seals appearing elsewhere on the picture are mostly facsimiles of seals belonging to the Qianlong emperor that often appear on works in the imperial collection.

In style your picture relates to Southern Sung painters Ma Yuan and his son Ma Lin, and to their later admirers, particularly those working in the Ming period. Here are a couple (not the best) of Ma Yuan pictures that relate a bit to yours: https://collections.mfa.org/objects/17390
http://www.chinaonlinemuseum.com/painting-ma-yuan-2.php

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Sun, Sep 08, 2019

Sorry, I did not answer your previous question. I don't read Chinese so I thought I could learn more about the artist and what it says by posting the writings and the seals.
As mentioned, I am a cancer researcher and I really don't now much about traditional Chinese paintings, except that they look very nice.
I examined the paintings and they were all looks old and with "real" ink brushes and stampings. I would never guess people would go that far to create faked paintings with all faked seals and forged signatures!!!
Thanks for letting me know :)



Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: rat Tue, Sep 10, 2019

Hi Tony,
Yes, forgeries have been a problem for centuries in China, and assessing authenticity is unfortunately a critical skill for anyone who pursues this field avidly. Unfortunately because it's sometimes quite difficult to be definitive on the subject and experts will often differ. This is partly because painters learned by copying existing works, so there are tons of copies out there (to which signatures have often been added by the unscrupulous), and for some early works the only surviving thing we have today are copies from sometimes centuries later. Anyway, long story, but an interesting one if are into Sherlock Holmes.

This picture is like the other one, made within recent decades, reasonably good in traditional style (but seemingly without the artificial distressing of the other one), signed in the left by someone I can't make out from your photo but who no doubt is supposed to be quite well known, and then at the right with a fake "A Treasure!" inscription "signed" by Ming painter Wen Jia (so the artist whose name is signed on the left will predate Wen Jia). Not sure whose name is written at the bottom right either, but as this is a modern imitation of a traditional picture, it's not essential. A number of the many seals again are associated with the Qianlong emperor, who used to apply them to paintings and calligraphy in the imperial collection.

Here are four Ming pictures all pasted next to each other to look like one that show the general type of thing this painting is after. https://www.comuseum.com/culture/four-arts/

Enjoy the paintings, I don't mean to discount the pleasure they bring in any way, but you should know that they aren't the imperial heirlooms they are otherwise pretending to be.

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Tue, Sep 10, 2019

Thanks again RAT for your input!!!
I would love to have opinions from other experts in the forum! I. Nagy ,Bill...?
I also am looking to have the paintings (6's) examined / authenticated and greatly appreciate guidance on where to start! Any recommendation on a capable authenticator in the Los Angeles area or Southern California?
Many thanks :)

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Wed, Sep 11, 2019

Due to the lapse in the time it took to post a message, I posted the last two comments before seeing Rat’s two last messages :)

Dear Rat,
It is just amazing how vast and deep your knowledge is about Chinese traditional painting. I really am impressed and very appreciative of your time and insightful analysis and feedback.
I love the paintings still and wish that they would bear no stamps and signatures at all ... well, it is what it is :)
Again, I really appreciate your precious time and thoughtfulness Rat!!!

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: rat Thu, Sep 12, 2019

My pleasure, and if it helps you are in good company wishing there weren't so many seals on pictures--the Qianlong emperor is well-known and not liked for stamping his seals all over things he liked as well as writing poetic inscriptions on them that take up a lot of the empty space the artist intended. Fortunately his connoisseurship was not the best, so in one instance he stamped and marked up a copy of a particularly prominent painting and spared the genuine version, which he thought was the copy.

The copy is here: http://projects.mcah.columbia.edu/nanxuntu/html/art/qp2.htm
The original is here:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/%E5%AF%8C%E6%98%A5%E5%B1%B1%E5%B1%85%E5%9C%96%28%E7%84%A1%E7%94%A8%E5%B8%AB%E5%8D%B7%29.jpg

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: John R Sun, Sep 15, 2019

Tony, I've been trying to "read" the forensics of your paintings. Some of the Qianlong seals appear to have been added to enhance the history of these paintings, but do not match exactly his recorded seals. It looks like they were added after the paper of the painting was cracked from rolling and unrolling. These seals fill in the paper damage but the original ink and seals don't. The earliest damage to the paper should affect the entire original image,but later additions should fill in some of this damage. Another interesting note is that the earliest seals are a deeper shade of red than the later seals. An effect that I have been researching for many years. Hello rat.

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Wed, Sep 18, 2019

Dear John,
Thank you very much for your time and help, analyzing the details of the painting 
After Rat’s thorough analysis, I have given up on the authenticity (signatures, seals, …) of the paintings. Maybe when the time comes whenever that is, I will have them to be examined in person by a professional 
But you’ve raised an interesting point about the seal which I did particular paid attention to! It is just for the sake of discussion here on that topic  With my naïve mind, I was trying to determine whether the paintings were actual painted and stamped with real ink? I did observed what you described about the seals seem to cover the damaged parts of the paper, and I had the exact conclusion, too, that they were applied after the damage was there. It puzzled me, until I came up with an alternative explanation :) To me, I assumed that the ink being pressed from the stamps would penetrate deeper into the paper as compared to the ink that was applied lightly by the painting brush. The damage due to rolling and unrolling scraped off the top layer along with the painting strokes as how it appears damaged in the paintings; whereas, the ink where the seals are remain visible /undamaged in the next layers. I have several paintings to confirm this idea, and it seems that it is the case. It did helpes to confirm this explanation by noticing that in some particular seals, the ink from the same seal did appears damaged in area where it seems to be lightly pressed and appears intact on top of the damage paper where it was a thick stamping section.
Well, it was until I learned from Rat that people could make fake seals and forge signatures, too 
Again, thank you so very much for your thoughtful input John on these paintings!!!

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Wed, Sep 18, 2019

Also, as for your thought on the color of the seals, I noticed that, too :) I just thought that it could totally depend on the color of the ink and the condition (wet /slightly dried off) of the ink pads that were used.
Well, I did not and don't have the experience that it takes years to acquire like you do on this topic :)
Thanks again John!!!

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Wed, Sep 18, 2019

Please see the circular seal in this painting below about our seal discussion John :)



Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: John R Thu, Sep 19, 2019

Tony, That last painting that you pictured has been artificially aged. The cracking is much too evenly spaced to have occurred naturally. Naturally cracking would tend to be closer at the top of the painting and have lesser damage towards the bottom. This happens because the painting is in a tighter spiral when it is rolled up.

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Fri, Sep 20, 2019

Thanks very much for pointing that out John! With artificially aging process, they really "destroyed" what rather was a decent nice painting :(

I have another question for our friends here in the forum. I just stumped upon a "painting" that definitely is identical to one of the painting I have and really love, except for minor details here and there. I just wonder whether any of our friends here know about the original work by which both mine and the internet one derived from.
Below is the link where I found the internet one :
https://chait.com/test/details.php?site=1&lang=1&sale=457&lot=572&page_url=0

Thank you very much!!!





Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Mon, Sep 23, 2019

It is a strange material the painting is on! I am not sure it is paper or silk.







Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: rat Tue, Sep 24, 2019

It's definitely on paper

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: rat Tue, Sep 24, 2019

It doesn't jog my memory, but that doesn't mean there isn't a common original. Sometimes the original is lost and we only have copies. This one however seems much like the others you have shared: a modern creation in traditional style that has been distressed to appear old. Like the other pictures too, the multiple signatures and seals suggest an effort to make it appear to be an imperial treasure that it is not.

(On the seals you and John discussed (Hi John!), what may be happening is that the painting is made and distressed before the seals are applied. This was surely the case for some genuine works that had been damaged over time; a seal was added on top of existing damage, though a wealthy owner could always first have the damage repaired at a mounter's before adding their seal if they chose to. In other instances, a collector may apply a seal to a painting that is subsequently damaged.)

In sum, this is a tough field in multiple ways:
1. Finding genuine works of good quality is tough
2. Finding genuine works of good quality that are in good condition is tougher.
3. Finding genuine works of good quality that are in good condition cheaply is very tough.

Therefore buy what you like not expecting it to be genuine, or if that bothers you, buy reproductions, or if THAT bothers, just buy books. I have a LOT of books :)

Subject:Re: Chinese hanging scroll painting
Posted By: Tony Winn Wed, Sep 25, 2019

Spoken like a true expert!
I greatly appreciate your precious time and thoughtful feedback Rat!!!


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