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Subject:Jade item
Posted By: adam Tue, Aug 14, 2012 IP:

Anyone have any idea about the use/age of this item?
I am thinking its some kinda girdle chime, but age wise I have no idea, The staining looks more natural than most fakes but would not like to go based on that alone...

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: LEE Wed, Aug 15, 2012

Hi adam that looks good for Han dynasty. I has a very natural age appearance. Such a piece would either be genuine or a very recent expert replica. If you have the provenance it is easy to tell. If it was in a collection prior to 1990s it is genuine if later than you have to check the cuts. Check the cut for perpendicular tool marks. If it all runs parallel to the cut except where the holes are cut . When they cut the hole only one area should have a drill cut and the other areas are cut by string so the cut would run parallel to the string. I think this one os most likely genuine congratulations.

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: adam Wed, Aug 15, 2012

Thanks lee, I am wondering what price to go too... Would rather not pay thousands obviously!!
Do you think its a girdle chime?

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: LEE Thu, Aug 16, 2012

The price of items like that depends on the demand for the piece on the day, if it was placed in a auction. Most Chinese like pure white ,celadon or yellow colored jade . However there is a developing taste for archiac jade. Your piece is obviously nephrite and has very natural looking inclusion and the carving is delicate and correct. Such style is copied by later dynasty- in duck carvings of the qianlong period, with the square under the beak. To put a price on such a piece is hard . It depends on the interested parties. I think it should be worth between 2000-4000 but you may get more on the auction, if it has a good provenance.

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Wed, Aug 15, 2012

Beware.. fantasy piece, new !!!!!!!!!!!

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: Roger Fri, Aug 17, 2012

Ernest is correcet - it is truly a "fantasy piece." This is the kind of stuff sold to tourists on the sidewalks in Taipei. If it had any redeeming features such as quality jade, good color, skilled workmanship, or of an identifiable subject, it might brimg up to $1.00 at auction.

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: adam Wed, Aug 15, 2012

I have the details of the previous owner so pretty sure its the real deal .... Regards selling this piece does anyone have any tips? Dont want to put it amongst ebay trash and trocadero charges a lot if you are someone like me who only sells the occasional item....Any ideas?

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: LEE Thu, Aug 16, 2012

You should auction it off at a major auction house. Christies or Sothebys.

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: Sarah Wed, Aug 15, 2012

A true insult to expert Chinese jade carvers of recent times. Mass produced !

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: adam Thu, Aug 16, 2012

Will be trusting your opinion lee.
Have my doubts concerning the opinions of the others!!

Subject:Re: Jade item
Posted By: Super Thu, Aug 16, 2012

This piece is quite contradictory. The age stains and its surface deposits did resemble that of an archaic piece, even its material may even be made of decent nephrite jade, probably a white one with green tint or celdaon (light green) that the picture did not show here. (*Digital pictures very often display white jade as green and celadon jade as white) However, some of the long carving lines especially those on the left look a little bit suspicious and its shape looks awkward. It almost looks like a new piece made with material recovered from an old jade carvings. Again, with such low resolution pictures and my lack of expertise, I really cannot say for sure. I can only advise you that without any concrete provenance, you should not buy it at any amount you cannot afford to lose. When it is too good to be true, it is too good to be true. A real HAN piece with good provenance will not be cheap.

Subject:Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: Sarah Thu, Aug 16, 2012

Your private email dissing members of this forum was not appreciated.

As for me, I've been handling, collecting, studying (mostly Asian) jades, attending lectures and talking to curators and sellers and other collectors for more than 30 years.

And I will not get into lengthy diatribes with members in public or private about other members. Very unethical in my books.

Good day.

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: adam Fri, Aug 17, 2012

I merely asked you to present your experience and collection for the perusal of others.
How about showing us your archaic jades?>!
Would love to see Mr willhelms too, although from what I hear he will only show them if he is sure you dont have the knowledge to challenge what he says... No attack, just a statement of his prctices, good or bad, people must decide... I know whos opinions on jade I trust on this formum..
I doubt you have ever even held an archaic piece...

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: richard t Fri, Aug 17, 2012

what i do not understand about people who comment on these forums is why many (not all. but many) feel that they can make brief, unsubstantiated comments. things like 'NEW' or 'probably japanese'

surely the reason people post is to acquire not only answers to questions but also KNOWLEDGE.

so, sarah, it is easy to say 'mass produced' and to list your credentials. but please - justify your position. what exactly leads you to believe this piece is mass produced?

and ernest - 'fantasy piece' - what does that mean?

without justification, your opinions count for nought.

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Sun, Aug 19, 2012

Fantasy piece means it is not a copy of an ancient carving.They are turned out by the thousands.
You are welcome

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: rat Sun, Aug 19, 2012

Fair points, but consider the position of the person who knows what they are looking at and knows that it is mass produced decorative art for tourists. Few of those people feel obligated to explain to the owner or prospective purchaser who has posted the work here exactly what elements of the object indicate that it is mass produced or whatever. Most of those people don't want to waste any more of their own time than necessary looking at stuff they consider junk, much less write a dissertation about it, or educate their rivals. But in fact they are offering their opinion, whether demonstrably right or wrong, as a free service to the poster and anyone else who reads these posts.

Sometimes opinions vary, but that's life. If you want encylopedia entries instead, you'll quickly find that anyone who knows anything will disappear, having better things to do with their time, and this forum will turn into a long string of unanswered posts from people showing their tag sale finds. If posters were offering to pay for an evaluation of their treasures, there would be more justification for your request, but they aren't.

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: adam Fri, Aug 17, 2012

Perhaps stick to the cats ey!!!

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: CY Fri, Aug 17, 2012

amazing ... differences in opinions from folks. based upon reading back comments, that seem very_knowledgeable.

but then again, I'm a newbie that appreciates feedback from experts that care enough to share.

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: JJ Tue, Aug 21, 2012

I suppose I have nothing to say here, as it is a field that does not interest me at all. However I would like to comment on the tone of this discussion.

Someone on the forum once said that "the small dogs make the most noise" and I agree with that. Adam, it is clear that you only side with people who agree with you, and that is fine, I do however find your tone purile and offensive. We are all on the forum to learn, you clearly want to know how much you must pay and what your profit margain could or should be - please consult experts in that case and not the ignorant forum members, but like others pointed out be prepared to pay then. I am sure you are spitting blood at me now and that too is fine, but I would like to remind you of your opinions on the posting by Maureen regarding the Lokapala carvings, August 9 where you carry on about generalising and people's attitudes towards items.... I am sorry to say that although you said a lot in that post you actually said nothing, so please do not slate other members for giving opinions you actually asked for.

This forum is given to us as a kind platform to communicate and learn but the tone set by you puts people off and can result in a loss of interest. I fail to see how you can be so short sighted to be so rude to people - they will likely not help you in future, but as you point out they know nothing so I suppose it is no loss to you.

I have been dealing in Chinese Antiques for over 20 years and I am a consultant for leading auction houses and have a publication under my belt but I dont boast about that on the forum - I have often given detailed info - in private and on the forum and often dont even get a THANK YOU, that could be why experts (or fools like us in your book) start resorting to one-liners....

Please dont bother to send me a message in private, if you would like to comment do it here where we all can see.

I think you owe Ernest and Sarah an apology but doubt that you are capable. Please also respect the view of the Forum and keep postings about the object, not the person.

Rat, they should have a like button on the Forum, well done on your response.


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Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Wed, Aug 22, 2012

JJ, here is my heartfelt THANK YOU !

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: CY Wed, Aug 22, 2012

for what it's worth .. as a newbie trying to find my way....

having bonified experts freely sharing their hard earned expertise is accelerating my learning curve.

all one has to do is pick out which threads has the most responses. then read who has what to say. doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure the select few that truly have deep knowledge.

thanks for sharing!!!

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: adam Wed, Aug 22, 2012

The fact I am regularly approached off site from members needing help, who have exceedingly low opinions of other board members here should be an indication of the "General tone" of discussion here,
Pirahna tank springs to mind...
(Although most fish have fact based opinion)

As regard me "needing information" from members of this board, if you were up actally to date with events you would see that I was testing the knowledge of certain board members with authenticated pieces of known value...
My profit had zero to do with it...
Bar a couple of exceptions (who received due praise) the knowledge of all parties involved were greatly lacking...
JJ.. Although I agree my tone WAS disrepectful, I also agree with "respect where respect is due"... I think you should investigate the characters of those you defend a little more closely... you may realize a terrible mistake in judgement...
And as regards my previous post saying little in many words- at least the lady involved had my opinion regarding authentication- At most you are only ever gonna be 96% certain of somethings age... and even that level of certainty will cost big bucks... The rest is a sliding scale..
I also gave her images of other similar items..
What was your contribution???
I also could fill a thread on what I have written, who I have met, where I have been. But actually it appears from YOUR post that YOU are the one keen on doing that... To my knowledge I have only ever given my background, so someone knows I speak with some experience...
There are only about 4 people whos knowledge make this site worth visiting (seems like less every day!)

Subject:Adam the phony jade expert!
Posted By: Larry Thu, Aug 23, 2012

A while ago, an OB doctor in New York who also claimed to be a jade expert, an author of several jade books, started posting his jade carvings here for discussion (he was actually trying to sell them), the way he authenticated his jade carvings were by using his own jade collections published in his jade books as references. Unfortunately, this so called jade expert was a phony who knew nothing about Chinese jade carvings and who was too lazy even to do some diligent researches before he posted his "expert" opinions on jade in this forum. All the jade carvings posted by him were fakes. After a few discussions, his ignorance in jade was soon exposed by the forum members. Later it was found that he was being disbarred as a medical doctor in NY and he was sued by a buyer of selling fake high quality jadeite necklaces (not made of jadeite, but some cheaper material).
He left this forum with disgrace.

Now this guy who called himself Adam came to this forum, acting like a big jade expert, claimed to have a friend who is a curator, yet judging by all of his postings in this forum so far, he was quite ignorant in everything including jade in which he claimed to be expert. He had no idea what Anyang jade is and he equally had no glue that Qinghai mountain jade is indeed nephrite jade mined from the Kunlun mountain, very similar in structure to that of Hetian jade, also originated from the Kulun mountain.

Yet he acted so arrogant by his rebuttal. It makes one wonder if he may be the same doctor who had once fled this forum and now returned. Just a thought!

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: rat Wed, Aug 22, 2012

Dear CY, your post made me laugh. Not at you but at the funny spelling you used. I think you mean "bona fide" (which comes from Latin) rather than "bonified" (which comes from the world of 13 year old boys)!

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: adam Thu, Aug 23, 2012

You say the point perfectly well rat, however I would add one caveat... If I didnt know much about an object I wouldnt present my opinion as solid cast-iron fact like some members do...(I may venture an opinion, but I would make it clear it was just that...An opinion)...

I Think certain board members are sore that their knowledge has been called into question (Surely anyone we reply to, deserves to know why we hold a certain opinion about their object!!)

... In the post mentioned above, the asian art dealer (with a publication under his belt!) was unaware that tang Lokapala in ceramic and wood were mainly tomb figures! Stated the wood they were constructed from should be showing temple smoke (of all things!)...

Through that same post it became apparent he hadn't even properly looked at the items he was meant to be assessing! and they were certainly worthy of a good look...

He initially claimed that they were far too intact, in perfect condition --(Despite having reattached hands, arms, hair topknots etc-(much obvious restoration) and then a few posts later (after his error is pointed out to him)-he uses different largely fabricated observations to maintain his original position!!!..rather than revising his opinion or even acknowledging his error!

I dont think I am infallable, but my negative tone was only ever as a response to others, I LIKE being corrected, means my knowledge has been enhanced..
Its is only certain other members who start to get catty when someone has conflicting opinions...

And their double standards and delusions of infallability are typed out for all to see..
Sure to the moderators (and to those who have only read the occasional post)i may seem to be the crux for much consternation amongst(a minority of)board members ,however, the only reason I have ruffled feathers was to get the chatroom experts to validate their opinions with INFORMATION and to judge pieces on their merit, rather than "They have brought it to Asianart to authenticate, therefore it must be fake" attitude...

I am also speaking for the hundreds (probably thousands) who have received responses along the lines of... "your object is a piece of modern tosh, worth nothing, dont dare ask me why"
No doubt, you may need to present them bad news but you can sugar the pill...

How many people have been scared away from the site (and possibly the world of asian art totally)due to those attitudes...The site exists for those of greater experience to help and advise those of lesser experience... AT ALL LEVELS.. Next time you ask a question here, imagine what it would be like to have your lack of knowledge resented or laughed at...

Know this is a fairly long message but I feel its message is an important one, patience with those less experienced and sensible debate between experienced conflicting opinions...
Sure this message will be edited... However feel this is an important message for some to hear, for the good of the site in general..

Thank you
Love and respect to the loving and respectful


Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: JJ Sat, Aug 25, 2012

Adam, Adam....

The best way to get yourself out of a hole is to stop digging...

This forum is not a kinder-garden group where we gang up on the playground and hold the hands of the other little children in our group, nor is it about receiving gold stars. Strangely I do agree with some statements you made in the post above but I still have a problem with your manner.
You say that I should investigate the characters of people before I defend them.... I defend what is correct in my book because I do not suffer from playground syndrome.

With reference to you statement above,where you say that I am unaware of the fact that Tang Lokapala are tomb guardians (and not placed in temples) Shall I remind you to go and read your own post in the same thread where YOU say on August 22 " Although forms of Lokapala are used in temples...." Selective amnesia, Adam?

I will respond on the Lokapala again but I would really like to respond to the post you made on Aug 19, by Greg on a Qing Dynasty Temple Vase, your take was a shining example of your knowledge....

I must admit that I found your posts entertaining at first but they are rather exhausting - arrogance and ignorance does not make for a good combo. I will no longer entertain your posts but I am sure you will shift your focus on to Larry regarding the statement he made.


Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: CY Wed, Aug 29, 2012

@ rat, yes "bona fide" is what I meant
got a serious laugh from your post!!!

in the short period that I've been involved with this forum. have noticed not everyone is inclined to justify their posts.

but there's usually enough of a bread trail to find reference material that drills in. then the works starts in earnest. studying, acquiring test equipment, etc.

Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: JLim Thu, Aug 30, 2012

To all, on this subject

I am highly appreciative of this forum and the knowledgeable folk who are willing to give their opinions so readily and with such evident appreciation of Asian art. I find my own knowledge increasing by leaps and bounds by comparing the opinions here to what I have in my growing library.

Yet, even looking back at posts from previous years, there does seem to be occasional trouble here from people who are excessively disruptive and do not have a realistic view of what authentication actually involves.

It strikes me, not just here but with some previous posters, that it is always easier for someone to attack the validity of an opinion, than to come up with one. I repeatedly see people asking a forum member to comment on his/her object, and then if the comment is unfavourable, to comment loudly and repeatedly that “no authentication is 100% accurate”. Compare that to actually coming up with positive reasons for authenticity of one’s own.

This is particularly the case when someone has spent a fair amount of money on what is plainly, even from a poor photograph, a fake. There was someone who claimed they had a Swatow bowl, in an old post, that was so fake that even as an utter beginner I could see it was all wrong. This person kept insisting (1) that no authentication could be 100% accurate, and (2), that forum members give “clearer” reasons for dismissing the object.

The amount of fakery, especially in Asia, is so titanic now, that probably an actual majority of porcelain (at least) presented here for comment is just a one-glance-fake. Yes, it can be painful to the ego, and the wallet, to find that you do not have a Ming era Wucai vase. But for goodness’ sake have the decency to respect other peoples’ wider knowledge.

The people who seem to make the most noise about the “ignorance” of forum members, seem to be the ones presenting the most flagrant, tourist grade fakes. And this comment is from me, a person who has only been collecting porcelain a few months and has only had the barest smattering of the literature. How could the people defending such evident fakes, have even the most basic knowledge of porcelain, to the extent of being able to attack the experts on this forum?

And that’s only porcelain. I’m sure the same is true of jades, etc, and other Asian art objects about which I know nil.

For goodness’ sake, if you know you have never handled porcelain before, and know nothing about authentication, then take a moment before attacking the forum members.


Subject:Re: Dear Peter or Adam or whoever you are...
Posted By: pipane Thu, Jul 25, 2019

100% recently carved piece, the style and carving is wrong, the material is old but carving is recent as the patina suggest. Han jades doesn't look like this, period, 2000 years old patina on white nephrite jade doesn't look like this neither.

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