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Cannot I.D. this mark, please help. Thank you!

Wendy, please don't take this personally, as it is a message repeated often by some of us who possess language skills and share them "pro bono" with visitors to the forum. The only returns we gain is an occasional chance to appreciate and learn something new about Asian Art in line with the stated objectives of the forum. So please do us the kindness of showing some photos of the item bearing this mark of Terashiyama (輝山 - てらしやま). You'll find further information on page 35 of the Waddington's catalog link below.

Bill H.

URL Title :Terashiyama

Hi Bill,

Japanese is a confusing language. I was looking for this mark as well and found a number of itams marked with these characters as "Kizan", see pictures
I found these (and more) googling on the internet and at this site:
http://www.trocadero.com/directory/Antiques/Regional_Art/Asian/Japanese/Porcelain
(search for Kizan).
And yes, you are right, literally the 2 characters spell Terashiyama.
But it leaves me confused.
Regards,
Martin.

Martin, if you put any faith in the WWWJDIC, the Japanese-English dictionary that supports Unicode, entering the characters we're talking about gets you the following results:

輝山 (てらしやま) (u-unclassified given name) Terashiyama (てるやま) (s-surname) Teruyama


When you get into longer compounds, your get:

玉輝山 (たまきやま) (s) Tamakiyama

三輝山 (みきやま) (s) Mikiyama


Then when you query names transliterated 'Kizan' your get:

暉山 (きざん) (g-given name unclassified by sex) Kizan (Different kanji for 'Ki')

棋山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)

葵山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)

岐山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)

驥山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)

其残 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)

箕山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)
(みのやま) (s) Minoyama

帰山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)
(かえりやま) (s) Kaeriyama (きやま) (s) Kiyama (かえやま) (s) Kaeyama (もとやま) (s) Motoyama

気山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)
(きやま) (p) Kiyama

喜山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)
(きやま) (s) Kiyama

紀山 (きざん) (g) Kizan (ditto different)
(きやま) (s) Kiyama

亀山 (きざん) (p-place) Kizan (ditto different)
(かめやま) (p,s) Kameyamaきやま) (s) Kiyama

亀山町 (かめやまちょう) (p) Kameyamachou (きざんまち) (p) Kizanmachi

The common denominator is that using what arguably may be the planet's most complete and up-to-date Japanese-English online Dictionary, the characters 輝山 do not seem to lead to the name Kizan, and the transliteration 'Kizan' does not lead to the characters 輝山. However, the transliteration 'Terashiyama did lead for me to apparent confirmation in the name used by Waddingtons, a Toronto auctioneer with 160 years of experience under their gavel. I mean, like their house was actually around before the internet, can you believe it?! Of course, when you combine my own vast experience in Japanese with theirs, it would probably sum out to only a century for them, but still better than nothing I suppose. Besides, whenever I fluff it, someone always seems to be near to remind me, which sometimes seems to be the best way for the poster to get a straight answer.

Your servant,

Bill H

Bill,

Thanks very much for your comprehensive answer.
As I wrote before, Japanese is confusion, especially when one has not the solid background in the language just like you with your knowledge of the Chinese language and from there the Japanese as well. As one one of the pillars of the Asian Arts Forum, I hope you keep on answering our questions, it's a great help for all us novices.
Regards,
Martin

Bill,

I agree with Martin. The mark should be read in the ON-reading (Sino-Japanese reading), not in the KUN-reading (native Japanese reading).

輝 Kan’on: き (ki)

So we get indeed 'Kizan' (輝山).

Cfr. reading in a footnote at Bonhams (together with Christie's, the reference for Japanese art).

Guy.

URL Title :Bonhams - Kizan

So, you waitin' fer me to email Waddington's with the news? :o
BH

I also agree it's read Kizan in this context.

Each kanji has several possible readings in Japanese, and ki is one reading among others for the character 輝: see the above-mentioned WWWJDIC dictionary.

There are certainly those who use kizan as a reading for 輝山 (note the hiragana きざん kizan):

http://www.kizan-soba.com/menu-en

http://profile.ameba.jp/kassy888

http://joyotennis.ec-net.jp/ie/infectious-43193.html

http://www.za.ztv.ne.jp/tobeyaki/sub07_17.html

Unless you somehow know, you can't tell just by looking at 輝山 whether it's meant to be pronounced kizan or terashiyama or something else in a particular case. That's why Japanese text often shows names in hiragana as well as characters, to explain the correct pronunciation in that context.

As to the Satsuma ware mark 輝山, here's Bonham's identifying it as Kizan:

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18823/lot/134/

And from Japan, the same here:

http://kyoto.wjr-isetan.co.jp/museum/pdf/1601kyosatsuma_list.pdf (items 28 and 29)

Guy and Bill,

Again thank you both for your input, although you seem to disagree. However, I do very much appreciate your reactions.

In the mean time I found out, that Kizan was named as one of the artist working for Yasuda. His name was among other names like Hozan, Kanzan, Seikozan, Shuzan and Unzan.

On the other hand, Terashiyama was also named at some fine auction houses, so perhaps there were 2 artists with the same characters in their names, one called Kizan and one called Terashiyama. Who knows? It all was a long time ago.

Thanks again.
Regards,
Martin.

Thank you very much for your response, I really appreciate your help. Wendy

This mark is on a mini brush pot, see photos

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