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Subject:Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Thierry Gaudin Fri, May 11, 2018 IP: 108.45.137.199

need help at text translation.For age of tablet Zoom on ZhiZheng Text JPG .

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Thierry Gaudin Sun, May 13, 2018

Photo of stele chinese text



Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Bill H Tue, May 15, 2018

I notice that a similar stele with different date and content was ignored at this recent auction in Massachusetts.

Bill H.

URL Title :Yuan stele


Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Thierry Gaudint Wed, May 16, 2018

Thanks for the info.According to Harvard Auction Boston MA this stele actually old for $3750.00 + 23% Buyer's premium on Feb 20,2018.https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/59784698_a-blue-and-white-stele-yuan-dynasty-1271-1368.
At first glance it is fair to observe that the text has suffered damages and many characters are now missing.

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Bill H Thu, May 17, 2018

After Live Auctioneers revamped their site a few years ago, I continued to use the original online archive portal, which indicates "Lot Passed" without showing competitive bids for any of the items in this sale (I was signed in and could see prices in results for other auctioneers).

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Thierry Gaudin Fri, May 18, 2018

Here is the link clearly showing the bidding on this stele.(scroll down to the bottom of the page).


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/59784698_a-blue-and-white-stele-yuan-dynasty-1271-1368

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Bill H Sat, May 19, 2018

Never had a doubt about what you and I both saw, only wished to alert anyone else who'd stuck with the old live auction website that there might be more than met their eye there.

BH

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: peter Mon, May 21, 2018

I'm afraid this might not be what it seems to be. "Epitaph" is written on it, but authentic epitaphs do not normally have written this on the epitaph. Further, most authentic epitaphs seem to be rectangular or round.

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Thierry Gaudin Tue, May 22, 2018

Thank you very much for your response.
The existing record of these tablets/steles is not a simple rectangular or round as can be seen by the two examples enclosed.The oldest examples so far are from the Ming dynasty and depending on the rank/status of individuals as in the enclosed photos they exhibited a wealth of richer details (dragons,collar clouds and floral
designs) well as shape variations (Arch like steles)This blue and white stele dated from the Yuan dynasty has all the motifs characteristics found on blue and white porcelains of the Yuan period.I am also sending you a very clear scanned photos in which the age is fully in evidence.





Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Thierry Gaudin Wed, May 23, 2018

Putting 2 and 2 together:

The significance of this Stele/tablet does not rest with its text or its shape for that matter but rather with its date :Yuan ZhiZheng 1352" in conjunction with the fact that it is a blue and white underglaze porcelain artifact.
The significance of the ZhiZheng date is twofold.
1/This period in Chinese history marks the true beginning of blue and white porcelain wares technical mastery.
2/None of the blue and white porcelain wares of that period are either marked or dated except for one famous exception known as the "David vases"now in the british museum and dated Yuan ZhiZheng 1351 thru an inscription.
From these two vases and the motifs found on them,the american historian John Alexander Pope in the 50's developed a standard of identification of the blue and white yuan porcelain.
These motifs included first and foremost the Yuan serpentlike horned dragon surrounded by collar clouds as well as its floral design.

And these motifs are exactly the same ones present in this dated Yuan"ZhiZheng 1352"underglaze blue and white stele exactly one year after the David vases.

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Thierry Gaudin Thu, May 24, 2018

Addressing the specific shape of this stele:
Since one commentor made the "one shape fits all'statement" either round or rectangular"regarding tablets of this kind in general (perhaps hoping for a monkey wrench effect)It should be noted that this stele is a rectangular stele fitted with a roof ie a Buddhist temple roof design.Documented examples of this kind of design go back to at least the Liao/Song dynasty(see photos).As the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words.

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: peter_ Thu, May 24, 2018

I can see only one image. I would classify this as rectangular, although you are right, the cut corners makes it something else.
I have recently seen two similar epitaphs on the web and showed pictures of one to a collector specialized on such, and who had them exhibited by the country's Historical Museum. I have seen some of them. There are many fakes, I heard. As I said, the strange is that "epitaph" is written on the item itself, because it usually is not.
The other thing is why there should be an item from the Yuan dynasty with so much writing. All other BW porcelain items with writing from that period amount only to a handful, including those with marks. This handful are the only ones which are currently considered authentic by China's museum authorities. If any other authentic ones exist they would have to be from tomb robbery.

PS: Identification of a painted decoration does not make an item authentic. Making sure that it is not a later imitation is a different matter.

Subject:Re: Yuan Blue and white stele "Da yuan Guo Zhi Zheng Shi Er Nian"1352
Posted By: Thierry Gaudin Tue, May 22, 2018

Please note that the email address given with this message has an "unable to deliver message"when you try to respond to it.Is it a spam???


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